Hall vs Grange

[britishcolumbian]

Please bear with a newbish question... I've found a drawing of the GWR Hall class but no luck for the Grange. However, I read that the Hall is essentially a Grange with bigger drivers - is that it, or are there other important differences, too? What I most would like to know are the Grange's wheelbase measures over drivers, total, and leading bogie - are they the same as the Hall, or different?

[LMS2968]

I thought the Grange was a Manor with a bigger boiler but I'm not that comfortable with GWR matters.

[Miss Prism]

Wheelbase dimensions are the same. Boilers were the same (standard no 1). The Granges had a raised section over the cylinders. JIm C has a good 'identification' page at:

https://devboats.co.uk/gwdrawings/460identification.php

 

[The Johnster]

Everything on a Grange is the same as the equivalent part on a Hall, except when it’s different…  Ok, the classes share common frames, cylinders, wheelbase (including bogie), motion, and boilers, but have different sized driving wheels and the cab roofs are different.  So you can basically make a Hall out of a Grange and vice-versa by changing the driving wheels because standardisation of parts, right?

 

No, you can’t.  A Hall has 6’ diameter drivers and a Grange 5’8”, which means that the running plate is two inches lower above railhead on a Grange than a Hall, hence the raised section over the cylinders.  This means that the frames sit correspondingly lower, and the boiler sits lower in them, so the relationship between the boiler and the rest of the loco is subtly but visibly different, and the Grange has a taller chimney and safety valve cover.  The Grange buffer beam is the same as the Hall, but mounted upside down to allow for buffer height. 
 

You can’t make a Grange out of a Manor or vice-versa by swapping out the boilers, either, even with everything from the running plate down being identical, because the Manor has shorter frames so the cab, which is different from a Grange’s in every dimension and has a completely different spectacle plate, is set proportionally further forward, concealing more of the rear splashers.  GW standardisation of parts is of parts, but not the positional relationships between them.  So all GW locos are the same except for the differences, or are different except when they are the same…

Edited November 28, 2022 by The Johnster

[Wickham Green too]

PHEW ! .................. an' there was I believing all Great Way Round locos were the same 🙃

[britishcolumbian]

@The Johnster @Miss Prism Thank you for those replies!

[Miss Prism]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The Grange buffer beam is the same as the Hall, but mounted upside down to allow for buffer height. 

 

nooooo.....

 

[Miss Prism]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

and the Grange has a taller chimney and safety valve cover

 

Granges and Halls had various chimneys throughout their lives, but I believe the safety valve covers remained the same.

 

[Cwmtwrch]

The tenders varied over time as well...

[Right Away]

Here’s some line drawings for comparison/reference.

 

A point worthy of note vis-a-vis the cylinders of the “Hall” and “Grange” is that although the stroke and diameters are identical, the inlet and exhaust valve ports were larger on the “”Grange”. This, in addition to the smaller driving wheels made for a very potent engine.

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Right Away
correction

[Mike_Walker]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Everything on a Grange is the same as the equivalent part on a Hall, except when it’s different…  Ok, the classes share common frames, cylinders, wheelbase (including bogie), motion, and boilers, but have different sized driving wheels and the cab roofs are different.  So you can basically make a Hall out of a Grange and vice-versa by changing the driving wheels because standardisation of parts, right?

 

No, you can’t.  A Hall has 6’ diameter drivers and a Grange 5’8”, which means that the running plate is two inches lower above railhead on a Grange than a Hall, hence the raised section over the cylinders.  This means that the frames sit correspondingly lower, and the boiler sits lower in them, so the relationship between the boiler and the rest of the loco is subtly but visibly different, and the Grange has a taller chimney and safety valve cover.  The Grange buffer beam is the same as the Hall, but mounted upside down to allow for buffer height. 
 

You can’t make a Grange out of a Manor or vice-versa by swapping out the boilers, either, even with everything from the running plate down being identical, because the Manor has shorter frames so the cab, which is different from a Grange’s in every dimension and has a completely different spectacle plate, is set proportionally further forward, concealing more of the rear splashers.  GW standardisation of parts is of parts, but not the positional relationships between them.  So all GW locos are the same except for the differences, or are different except when they are the same…

Which is why the 12"=1 ft scale 6880 Bretton Grange is a new-build rather than a kit bashed Hall or Manor.   As the GWS found out converting a Hall into a Saint wasn't as easy as it looked on paper even if Swindon did do it the other way round initially.

[JimC]

Basically a Hall is a cut down Saint, and a Grange an enlarged 43. But Grange and Manor cylinders were significantly different internally than the earlier standards. 

[Oldddudders]

To this GWR ignoramus, a Hall was a development of a Saint, which was then further developed into more modern versions - Modified Hall. The Grange was a development of the venerable 43xx, as was the Manor. The Grange's smaller drivers gave it a more mixed-traffic capability, while the Hall remained a sort of secondary express loco, behind King and Castle. 

[rab]

9 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

PHEW ! .................. an' there was I believing all Great Way Round locos were the same 🙃

They were all the same in that they were better than any other locos!!!

 

(Tin hat on, running for cover as fast as little legs will go)  :)

Edited November 28, 2022 by rab

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, rab said:

They were all the same in that they were

….. indistinguishable green 4-6-0 engines.

 

A good friend spent several hours touring me round Didcot trying to get me to understand GWR 4-6-0, but it only helped a tiny bit: I remember that some have more cylinders than others.

[JimC]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

it only helped a tiny bit: I remember that some have more cylinders than others.

You're about a third of the way there. 

 - Some have more cylinders than others

 - Some have bigger wheels than others

 - Some have bigger boilers than others

Master those three and the only thing left is the difference between Halls and Modified Halls and that's getting a bit too esoteric... 

 

 

[OFFTHE RAILS]

The Granges and Manors had a new type of cylinders - i.e. different to the Halls. The piston valve centre line was raised an additional 2 1/2"  above the cylinder centre line. This additional steam space is said to have contributed to the smoother running of the Granges relative to the Halls. (See the Rev. J. Gibson's book "Great Western Locomotive Design - A Critical Appreciation"). The Churchward 43xx 2-6-0 cylinder centre line was 2 1/2" above the driving wheel centres but Collet wanted cylinders in line with the axle centres on the 4-6-0s. So, to be able to use 43xx wheels and motion meant a revised cylinder type. 

[Bernard Lamb]

11 hours ago, rab said:

They were all the same in that they were better than any other locos!!!

 

(Tin hat on, running for cover as fast as little legs will go)  :)

Indeed they were.

However they were way too much over-engineered for a steam locomotive.

Too narrow tolerances on certain parts leads to excessive maintainance costs.

Wearing my QA hat I would have gone through the drawings and suggested quite a few changes long before any metal was cut.

Bernard (I think I need to run faster than you and wear a flack jacket) 

[LMS2968]

11 hours ago, rab said:

They were all the same in that they were better than any other locos!!!

 

(Tin hat on, running for cover as fast as little legs will go)  :)

That's true but depends on the era you're talking about. It was true in the first twenty or so years of the Twentieth Century but the lead diminished thereafter. By the 1940s the other three Railways had at least reached parity and, in some ways possibly superiority.

[Wickham Green too]

Definite superiority in the accessibility department.

[rogerzilla]

21 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

PHEW ! .................. an' there was I believing all Great Way Round locos were the same 🙃

The 4-6-0s just LOOK the same.  Apart from the King with its frankenbogie and the Hawksworth County with its straight splasher.  And the skimpy Churchward cab vs side window cabs afterwards.

[Wickham Green too]

.... then there are the corkscrew steampipes and .....

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, rogerzilla said:

The 4-6-0s just LOOK the same.  

A while ago, a member with a splendid layout made the same remark. I had to point out to him that, apart from the A4, and various different smoke-deflectors, his prototype's fine pacifics had exactly the same superficial resemblance, one to another. 

 

We each study and absorb the detail of our favoured company, but may be less knowledgeable where others are concerned. I have pointed out elsewhere on RMweb the disappointment about Bachmann's failure to announce the Bulleid D2406 BCK. The D2405 which they are now selling has the same seating arrangement - but the loo is in a different location. To a minority of RMwebbers, including me, that really matters enormously, while the vast majority are not losing much sleep about it....... 

[Chris M]

I've seen it written somewhere that a Grange was preferable to a Hall where you needed a little more power rather than a little more speed. Granges were apparently very popular in Cornwall. Whilst many Great Western locos may look superficially look the same they are really all quite different as can be seen from the photo. This may look odd but it is a reconstruction a regular working on summer Saturdays in the fifties. The locos are running tender first down the main line. Having been serviced at Newton Abbot they are on their way to Paignton to pull the trains taking the holidaymakers back home. Quite clearly these very different locos are Dapol Manor, Dapol Hall, Dapol Grange and Farish Castle.

[Chris M]

I have since added crews and real coal to these locos which is a worthwhile improvement.