Fort William new station signalling question

[young37215]

The new Fort William station opened in 1975 with MAS (multiple aspect signals) or lights as many of us call them. I want to add 2 of the MAS signals to my model of Fort William, the bracket pair on the end of the platform and the single 3 aspect signal that controls entry to the station. My intention is to have Absolute Aspects do a 'custom build' and I am in the process of collecting pictures for their reference. Pictures of the platform bracket signal are relatively easy to find, the one below is the best that I have found so far.

 

 

The single 3 aspect which is somewhere behind the 3rd coach is more difficult to find pictures of. I have managed to take a picture from a Youtube video dating back to 2009 which shows all of the necessary detail. It also shows that the 3 aspect has had its green light blanked off, presumably in line with current practice of using amber to control access to a terminus station. I am pretty certain that the signal originally had all 3 aspects working, my question is when was this changed? 

 

 

 

[woodenhead]

For there to be a green aspect on that signal as well as red and yellow, surely that would mean there was a third signal in your group at the time you are modelling.

 

If that is the last signal before the station it can only ever have been red and yellow or red and green

[young37215]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

For there to be a green aspect on that signal as well as red and yellow, surely that would mean there was a third signal in your group at the time you are modelling.

 

That is the nub of my question, I believe that the signal originally, as built in 1975, had all 3 aspects working but I stand to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable. I model the early 1980's and want to be clear on how the signal should be built for my time period.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

For there to be a green aspect on that signal as well as red and yellow, surely that would mean there was a third signal in your group at the time you are modelling.

 

If that is the last signal before the station it can only ever have been red and yellow or red and green

 

It was the practice at certain times for certain railways to use a single yellow to indicate a platform was partially occupied and green as the entire platform being empty - though I would be surprised if it was still going on in 1975.

[Michael Hodgson]

The change to signalling practice whereby last signal before a terminus must only clear to single yellow at best was a result of the Moorgate tunnel accident on 28th Feb 1975.

[phil-b259]

14 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The change to signalling practice whereby last signal before a terminus must only clear to single yellow at best was a result of the Moorgate tunnel accident on 28th Feb 1975.

 

Agreed - but what was the standard for entering a partially occupied platform in the early 1970s? Using a subsidiary signal or was it a single yellow?

 

If a subsidiary signal is used, then it doesn't matter whether its yellow or green into an unoccupied platform - you still only need a 2 aspect signal head!

[young37215]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The change to signalling practice whereby last signal before a terminus must only clear to single yellow at best was a result of the Moorgate tunnel accident on 28th Feb 1975.

 

Interesting, in the context of my question this supports my view that the signal erected in 1975 was originally 3 aspect with the green element covered/removed at a later date. This is pretty evident from the picture above, if BR had been installing 2 aspect signals then it is inconceivable to me that a 3 aspect would be installed with the green plated over. The signal also has a calling on signal which would have been used for entering an occupied platform.

 

Back to the original question, when did the signal get reduced to 2 aspect?

 

[phil-b259]

16 minutes ago, young37215 said:

 

 if BR had been installing 2 aspect signals then it is inconceivable to me that a 3 aspect would be installed with the green plated over.

 

 

It has been known to happen in rare cases - presumably because someone just decided to simply 3 aspect heads for the scheme as it was easier than a mix of 2 and 3 aspect ones to the install team (who blanked off the green aspect aperture from the get-go.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Agreed - but what was the standard for entering a partially occupied platform in the early 1970s? Using a subsidiary signal or was it a single yellow?

 

If a subsidiary signal is used, then it doesn't matter whether its yellow or green into an unoccupied platform - you still only need a 2 aspect signal head!

I think you would have been following semaphore rules back then, ie

When the line was clear to the stops, main signal.

If not, use subisidary instead, where provided.

Where not provided, exhibit green hand signal as caution and lower main signal

If hand signal not practical (because the signal is located in advance of the signal box), hold the signal at danger until train stops.  Clear the signal which the driver is then to understand that he can proceed only as far as the line is clear.

Semaphore boxes weren't as far away as Mallaig Junction of course, but colour lights were essentially the same rules.

So last signal would have been red/green two-aspect with a route indicator for the platform, with or without a subsidiiary.  Fort William needed it often enough to justify the subsidiary.  In some places a red/yellow might be provided, the yellow being used for much shorter platforms such as a bay, but I don't see that applying here.

 

But in this case I would agree the likely explanation would be an intervening signal when the colour lights were first installed; subsidiary and junction indicator would have been on that post.  Protecting a siding connection perhaps, as at 22 signal in the old Fort Williiam box ?  But as phil-b29 says it has been known to use 3-aspect heads where only 2 lamps are needed, if that's what happened to be in stock at the time.  It could be nothing more than the practical way of getting the project done on time if there was a problem getting 2-aspect heads. 

[Wheatley]

27 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

But as phil-b29 says it has been known to use 3-aspect heads where only 2 lamps are needed, if that's what happened to be in stock at the time.  

Agreed. Somewhere I've got a photo of Sheffield S&T trying to make one good signal head out of 3 or 4 duff ones to replace a rotting 2 aspect at Penistone. 

 

[Dungrange]

I can't answer the original question, but there is a signal diagram of Fort William on page 5 at https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/315489/response/776317/attach/5/511631 SC145 Fort William Mallaig.pdf

 

Where was the Nevis Distillery in relation to signal FW33?  According to Railscot https://www.railscot.co.uk/locations/N/Nevis_Distillery/ the distillery was closed in 1908, but the warehouse remained rail connected until 1980.  Was this just where the head-shunt for the carriage sidings are, or was the track layout altered in the early 1980s, which would require a signalling change?

 

 

[Dungrange]

If you look at the Canmore historical website, there is a photograph of a class 27 at the site of the Nevis Distillery and signal 33, which is, I think, the one you are interested in, appears in the foreground.  

 

https://canmore.org.uk/collection/493297

 

The photograph is dated 18 May 1976 (so a bit before your period) and it looks like it is definitely a two aspect signal, with a significant gap between the signal and the theatre route indicator.  I'm therefore going to suggest that at some point the two aspect signal head failed and all that was available as a replacement was a three aspect one, so they used that and blanked out the top aspect - ie it was never operational.

 

Unfortunately, that doesn't really answer your question, as we don't know when the signal head was changed, bar being able to say that it was sometime between 1976 (the date of the above photograph) and 2009 (the date of your video image).  It therefore doesn't get us any closer to answering your question.

 

The Canmore collection of photographs is at https://canmore.org.uk/site/79676/fort-william-nevis-distillery - it appears that the distillery wasn't demolished until 1992, so will presumably be part of your scenic area.

[young37215]

2 hours ago, Dungrange said:

The photograph is dated 18 May 1976 (so a bit before your period) and it looks like it is definitely a two aspect signal, with a significant gap between the signal and the theatre route indicator.  I'm therefore going to suggest that at some point the two aspect signal head failed and all that was available as a replacement was a three aspect one, so they used that and blanked out the top aspect - ie it was never operational.

 

I think the 1976 photo answers my original question and proves my earlier hypothesis wrong. I am sure that FW33 was only installed around 1975 as part of the new station arrangments. Prior to that I believe that all signaling in the area was semaphore. When I expand the picture of FW33 I think I can see a blanking plate indicating FW33 was 3 aspect from installation with the top light blanked off. That will do for my early 1980's planning purposes, my original picture of FW33 appears to be the same signal and I consider it highly unlikely that anything has changed since 1976.      

 

3 hours ago, Dungrange said:

Where was the Nevis Distillery in relation to signal FW33?

 

Roughly behind the class 27 in the picture of FW33. My knowledge of the distillery connection is zero, I have only ever known the siding as a derelict one used occassionally for dumping a defective coach or two.  

 

Thanks to everyone for their input, it is much appreciated. 

[Strathyre]

the signal will only ever have shown one of two aspects, red or yellow - the red is obvious but the yellow denotes a proceed aspect as far as the next stop signal, and an empty platform, which is effectively the red lamp on the buffer end. It will never have had a green aspect. The signal will either have originally been two aspect only (red or yellow) or a three aspect with the green permanently blanked off, probably because they had a spare 3 aspect signal and used it as it was practical and handy. The position light signal showing a proceed aspect while the main signal shows red, with theatre box display, indicates an occupied platform ahead.

 

Paul

[young37215]

A little more detail for the record about FW 33 should anyone ever use this thread as a point of reference. The theatre box (the screen at the top of the signal) shows the platform that is set, numbers are 1 and 2. The smaller box to the left alongside the calling on signal or position light indicates access to the sidings with the letter S illuminating when the points are set for the siding.

[Corrour]

If you send me a message with your email I can send you original signalling scheme plan, etc.

 

R