Lenz DCC - repair/Warrenty work in the UK

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

I have a problem...

 

My Set 100 needs a repair after an incident at an exhibition!

 

I've spoken with the UK Repair agents and got some bad news.

 

Due to difficulties sine Brexit he is not taking any of this work on.

 

The problems he desribed are a mixed bag.

 

Unable to get a return date from lenz

 

Unable to get a cost following Brexit - due to way VAT liability and harges are being assessed and enforced on the retailer/agent  and customer.

 

So, is there anyone else in the UK who does carry out repair work on Lenz DCC equipment?

 

Thanks

Phil H

 

 

[WIMorrison]

Have you tried these people?

 

A and H Models Digital Model Railways, DCC Specialist model scenery

 

[Scottish Modeller]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

Have you tried these people?

 

A and H Models Digital Model Railways, DCC Specialist model scenery

 

Of course - I did say I had spoken with the UK agent!

 

Thanks

Phil H

[WIMorrison]

You didn’t say who the UK agent is, and not everyone was aware that this shop is.

 

I will not try to be helpful towards you anymore, and frankly, with a response like you provided to my reply I would surprised if anyone replies at all to you.

[Scottish Modeller]

53 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

You didn’t say who the UK agent is, and not everyone was aware that this shop is.

 

I will not try to be helpful towards you anymore, and frankly, with a response like you provided to my reply I would surprised if anyone replies at all to you.

Hi Iain

 

If youread my entry dorrectly

 

I specifically said_

 

"I've spoken with the UK Repair agents and got some bad news."

 

But, never mind, we are all entitled to our opinions.

 

My response to you was not of rudeness, just frustration.

 

Thanks

Phil H

[Mick Boyd]

Morning Phil,

I've quite a bit of Lenz equipment and when I require repairs or spares I email Lenz directly at: https://www.lenz-elektronik.de/info/service-support.php 

You may need to copy the text into Google Translate (or similar) if you dont have a command of German but it's very easy to do, invariably the reply will be in English.

Lenz support is second to none, a few years ago I damaged a (steam) loco  quite badly, they asked me to send it to them, they repaired and serviced the loco before shipping it back to me free of charge, I've recently asked for some detail parts for another loco that I'd damaged and my request was dealt with in a similar manner, parts sent FOC. Lenz in my experience are an excellent company to deal with.

Regards, Mick.

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi Mick,

 

Agreed, Lenz have always been helpful in the past with both support responses and spare bits supplied.

 

I've just been in touch with Lenz and they advised me to go through the UK agent.

 

I will go back to them now that the official UK agent has said what they have and see what they have to say.

 

Thanks

Phil H

[jamesed]

Let's be clear, blaming Brexit is not an acceptable excuse and is obviously untrue. It's quite possible that when importing electronic parts it may be necessary to pay vat but equally the manufacturer exporting the goods won't have needed to charge vat so the cost won't be hugely different. There may be a little more paperwork involved but that shouldn't be too arduous. As far as the end customer is concerned there is absolutely no difference whatsoever. If the retailer is vat registered then the customer pays vat, if the retailer isn't then vat isn't added to the charge.  

 

In this case the service agent / retailer has most probably got enough work without needing to do repairs for Lenz equipment so why bother trying to source spare parts from abroad. It's a commercial choice and nothing to do with Brexit.

 

Bexit may be responsible for lots of things but this certainly isn't one of them.

[JST]

Not necessarily so Jamesed. Since Brexit you will find that in many cases the recipient in the EU (I know from experience) can get caught for not only VAT in the EU but also import duties and admin fees.

I had one parcel, the cost value of which was £47, which cost me another €35 to collect it! The VAT element was way more than 20% because they base it on what they think the item is worth and not the sender declared value. I don't blame Lenz for not wanting to get involved.

[SHMD]

I work for a UK manufacturing company and we export all over the world.

Since Brexit, our European customers are having to pay VAT on all items sent back to the UK for repair (on re-entering the EU) - BUT at the original price!

So, if a unit fails three times, we repair it (FOC if within warrantee) BUT they still have to pay 3x20% of the original price* - not a problem if you are VAT registered, you just claim it back...

...but if you are not VAT registered - you get clobbered every time.

 

(* Not including admin fees and the absolutely awful many paper hoops you have to jump through.)

 

 

Getting back on subject, what was the nature of the damage/failure of the "100 set"?

 

 

Kev.

 

[Scottish Modeller]

2 hours ago, SHMD said:

I work for a UK manufacturing company and we export all over the world.

Since Brexit, our European customers are having to pay VAT on all items sent back to the UK for repair (on re-entering the EU) - BUT at the original price!

So, if a unit fails three times, we repair it (FOC if within warrantee) BUT they still have to pay 3x20% of the original price* - not a problem if you are VAT registered, you just claim it back...

...but if you are not VAT registered - you get clobbered every time.

 

(* Not including admin fees and the absolutely awful many paper hoops you have to jump through.)

 

 

Getting back on subject, what was the nature of the damage/failure of the "100 set"?

 

 

Kev.

 

Hi Kev,

 

What you have said about charges matches what the UK Agent has said to me,

 

The Set 100 has sent out the magic smoke - quite a big cloud of it! Visible burn marks to the electronics in the box. When checked on the meter it shows no output.

 

It appears that the transformer sent a surge out when the brown out cleared and that over voltage has done the damage. Checked transformer and seems to be OK, but I won't be taking the chance of using it as a DCC power source any more - relegated to the stand LED lighting circuit.

 

The Compact that was acting as a 2nd controllede is also fried - smoke came out of that as well and no output on test.

 

Thanks

Phil H

 

[SHMD]

That does sound drastic. Might even be a write-off.

(Worst case :- Could need a all the silicon replacing along with all the electrolytic capacitors. Now if the PCB is burnt through...)

 

Out of curiosity - How big was the venue? During the "brown-out" did all the lights go dim or did some brighten up for the duration?

 

 

Kev.

[TWG]

It is a reasonable inference that A&H have not told Lenz that they will not involve themselves in repairs.  The two parties clearly need to discuss the matter. Am I right to presume that If a firm takes on the task of being an importer and agent there is some sort of a written contract setting out how business will be conducted?  This would probably include responsibilities in relation to after sales service and support.  Simply taking your profit margin and thereafter absolving yourself for any further responsibility is, if you are an accredited importer, not a commendable attitude in my estimation.  It will be interesting to see what attitude Lenz take; I hope that Scottish Modeller will let us know further developments.

 

There was a discussion in the forum some time ago about a similar problem with the ESU importers.  I suspect that being an importer involves a lot of work and some small firms do not have adequate resources.

 

I fairly recently sent a faulty device to Uhlenbrock in Germany for repair.  I marked the customs form "Reperatur" (repair) and it duly came back without any problems.  I would have been content to pay VAT on the cost of the repair, but no one asked for it.

[Scottish Modeller]

3 hours ago, SHMD said:

That does sound drastic. Might even be a write-off.

(Worst case :- Could need a all the silicon replacing along with all the electrolytic capacitors. Now if the PCB is burnt through...)

 

Out of curiosity - How big was the venue? During the "brown-out" did all the lights go dim or did some brighten up for the duration?

 

 

Kev.

Hi Kev,

 

I took photos, spoke with Lenz, sent photos and info about my situation and what the UK Agent has said to me. They will look into that.

 

If I send the unit direct to them they would replace it with the new, upgraded unit - at a discounted cost though.

 

Only one of the circuit boards is showing scorching (tracks plus silicon) and marks on it and the case from jetting (capacitors)

 

The venue was large and on 3 phase power - it appears that one phase went wild as the lights were not affected and only some socket circuits were affected as well.

 

I was plugged into one of the sockets that usually have electric space heaters in them.

 

It's partially my fault as I didn't make sure the control system was plugged into the surge protected extension.

 

I've had some offers of help with replacing it from members on here - if that's you - thanks and I'll let you know shortly.

 

None of this changes the fact that the UK Agent feels he is unable3 to help - so badly affected that he is considering giving up the business all together.

 

Phil H

[Scottish Modeller]

1 hour ago, TWG said:

It is a reasonable inference that A&H have not told Lenz that they will not involve themselves in repairs.  The two parties clearly need to discuss the matter. Am I right to presume that If a firm takes on the task of being an importer and agent there is some sort of a written contract setting out how business will be conducted?  This would probably include responsibilities in relation to after sales service and support.  Simply taking your profit margin and thereafter absolving yourself for any further responsibility is, if you are an accredited importer, not a commendable attitude in my estimation.  It will be interesting to see what attitude Lenz take; I hope that Scottish Modeller will let us know further developments.

 

There was a discussion in the forum some time ago about a similar problem with the ESU importers.  I suspect that being an importer involves a lot of work and some small firms do not have adequate resources.

 

I fairly recently sent a faulty device to Uhlenbrock in Germany for repair.  I marked the customs form "Reperatur" (repair) and it duly came back without any problems.  I would have been content to pay VAT on the cost of the repair, but no one asked for it.

Hi TWG,

 

I'll try to keep people up to date as things develop.

 

I'm hoping to get a call back from Lenz with more information.

 

Thanks

Phil H

 

[Nigelcliffe]

If Lenz in Germany say that the only option is a "discounted replacement", then perhaps that's an option which could be facilitated via A&H, thus saving to have to deal with personal import VAT issues ?     A&H as the agent could confirm receipt of dead Lenz system, and thus have agreement to supply discounted price replacement new system.    

 

Just a thought, and doesn't fix the medium term problem of yet another service disappearing because of Brexit paperwork.  

 

 

- Nigel

[melmerby]

50 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Just a thought, and doesn't fix the medium term problem of yet another service disappearing because of Brexit paperwork. 

I know of at least two other EU firms (not model railway) that I have dealt with in the past, that won't sell to the UK post brexit due to the UK's paperwork requirements.

So much for a smooth transition!🙄

[SHMD]

In 'our' case it's the German Paperwork requirements on top of the Eu's insistence of collecting 20% - of the original purchase price - each time the unit traverses the UK - EU border.

 

Regarding the discounted updated unit - snatch their hand off!

 

Thinking of the original cause - I was wondering if a "Rising Earth" / "Floating Neutral", in combination with an Earth / Neutral wiring fault, may have been the cause.

 

 

Kev.

[RFS]

The Lenz online shop has refurbished LZV100s on offer at €99 which might compare favourably with a repair of your existing damaged unit. 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, RFS said:

The Lenz online shop has refurbished LZV100s on offer at €99 which might compare favourably with a repair of your existing damaged unit. 

I would've thought that was excellent value based on what the last new price was.

 

Pity about this restriction: "Verkauf und Versand ausschließlich innerhalb Deutschlands."

(Sales and shipping within Germany only)

It's prominent in red at the top and bottom of the list.

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by melmerby

[RFS]

36 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I would've thought that was excellent value based on what the last new price was.

 

Pity about this restriction: "Verkauf und Versand ausschließlich innerhalb Deutschlands."

(Sales and shipping within Germany only)

It's prominent in red at the top and bottom of the list.

 

 Missed that! However sounds like Lenz might do a deal with a replacement though from what has stated earlier in the thread.

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

OK - minor update......

 

Of the 2 circuit boards in the Lenz unit - it is confirmed that it is the power amplifier board that is fried on mine.

 

The digital control circuit board is undamaged!

 

So, a bit of a double edged sword situation.....

 

Phil H

[Crosland]

On 15/12/2022 at 19:59, SHMD said:

In 'our' case it's the German Paperwork requirements on top of the Eu's insistence of collecting 20% - of the original purchase price - each time the unit traverses the UK - EU border.

 

Someone is not using the correct procedure, or the EU are being arsey, and not following the rules, to cause problems for the UK post-Brexit.

 

There has always been a way for goods being repaired to be imported into the EU with no duty or VAT payable. I used it many times myself pre-Brexit to repair goods originally sold outside the EU. 

 

[SHMD]

Yet this is how it is now.

 

The Rest Of the World, I agree, is no problem- but the EU and Germany in particular is.

 

 

Kev.