Whaley Shunt (Shallcross Yard)

[Fishplate]

On 05/01/2024 at 08:49, NHY 581 said:

Bonjour Fishpaste, 

 

My track painting has evolved over time and still is. Mutton’s track was laid then sprayed overall with Humbrol no.29, Dark earth. The sleepers were then painted individually with track colour, Humbrol no.173. The buffer stops were also sprayed with dark earth but after being washed with soapy water as the plastic reminded me of the Airfix soldiers I had as a youngster. I left it at that I think as the track on the Lyme Regis branch ( on which Mutton was based ) was kept in pretty much good order. 

 

I then added various rusty weathering powders to the buffer beams and to the rails at the very end of the sidings, around the buffer stops. The supplied rail buffer beams were replaced with stripwood as I wanted an appearance more akin to a typical L&SWR buffer stop. I also added tie rods from brass wire and a lamp iron from a bit of metal strip. 

 

Thank you Rob @NHY 581 .

 

I tried a general store stockist of modelling paints in the local town yesterday (not a model shop) but they were out of stock. Although the only tin of Italian Red in the wrong slot made me think I'd got the last tin of Dark Earth. Hopes dashed.

 

Will have to try further afield. Maybe by using Option TWO* and 'passing by' a supplier.

 

*Take Wife Out. She is very supportive and used to me 'just popping in here for a few minutes' 👍

[Tortuga]

48 minutes ago, Fishplate said:

…Option TWO* and 'passing by' a supplier.

 

*Take Wife Out…

I like this.

[Tortuga]

Suggestions / thoughts needed please!

 

I have no idea how the end of the loop at Shallcross terminated after the incline was abandoned, but the other end (north of Ladmanlow) terminated in a rail-built buffer stop, so this seem a likely option. The ends of the tracks seem to have been heavily overgrown:

http://manlocosoc.co.uk/sutherland/slide-webone-off.cgi?ws-021&11

 

So, where looks to be the best position for the buffer stops?

So both are fully on the board with a minimal headshunt (still holds an 8F)?

 

So both are mostly on the board with just the very ends trimmed flush to the board edge?

 

So the backs are off the board and trimmed to the vertical rails?

 

(That edge will be (prototypically) overgrown to disguise any section of the buffers that has been trimmed back to fit)

 

 

 

[GWR57xx]

If I were you I’d go for the middle option - mostly on the board.

This seems to give the best compromise between the length of the headshunt while still leaving enough space behind the buffer crossbar to get a decent representation of overgrown shrubbery. 🙂

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I'd go for the first option. The headshunt is long enough and making it an inch or so longer doesn't really add anything, apart from making it look squashed-up at the baseboard end.

[NHY 581]

Morning Nick et al.

 

Here are a couple more buffer stop images from Mutton that I couldn't find before. 

 

 

 

 

Rob.

 

 

[Tortuga]

Buffer positioning is currently on hold, as all buffer stops have been removed in favour of the ongoing pursuit of Priority 2: thanks to those who’ve contributed so far, I’m leaning toward option 1 or 2 rather than my original favourite of option 3.

 

Tonight’s work has resulted in point motors being fixed beneath the points on the extension board and a flurry of soldering.

 

Stay tuned!

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Never mind about buffer stops; I want to know why there is a member of the footplate crew lying dead on the coal in the 8Fs tender? The Mysterious Murder at Shallcross.

[Tortuga]

Why, ‘e’s not dead yerrona!  ‘e’s just restin’!

[Tortuga]

Managed to get a little further with the wiring before getting called down to cook dinner (Wednesdays is my turn).

All the feeds (black and red) to the track linked together, frogs (green) linked to the point motors and the common AC feed (blue) running to the point motors. Just the wires that connect to the point switch to do now.

 

I’m not sure how the two points at the end of the loop were operated at the real Shallcross.  The furthest one was definitely operated by a hand lever (it’s clearly visible in several photos of that end of the yard), but I can’t see a lever or rodding for the other.  Might it have been sprung (in the same manner as a sprung catch point on an incline), so it was always set for the straight road, the weight of a loco running over it causing it to switch to the curved route?

 

Since I can’t see any way of getting points to reliably switch route as the loco passes over them, my pair are going to switch together from a single lever* (like a crossover), since I can’t see a situation where one point needs to be set to the straight route while the other is set to diverge.

 

(*passing contact toggle switch)

Edited January 11 by Tortuga
Clarification?

[Tortuga]

Tonight’s work on the layout has more or less completed the wiring on the inglenook board:

The bank of switches (all four of them) and the controller socket are hanging down, opposite to the side to which they will eventually be attached; the transformer socket needs fixing to the underside of the baseboard (I’m intending to stick it using a hot glue gun - there being no mounting holes - unless anyone has a better suggestion?) and the right hand chocbloc needs replacing with a five terminal alternative so I can carry five wires (two track feeds,

one point motor feed and two switch feeds) across the joint.

 

Yes, I’ve had a play done some initial testing and I’m pleased to report that the new controller works and the points throw. I’m going to have to swap the switch wires over though, as the route set is in the opposite direction to the movement of the toggle switch - which makes operating nearly as confusing as trying to explain it!

 

Before I do more playing further testing, I need to do some intensive loco wheel cleaning: there is movement on all tracks, but it’s neither as slow nor as smooth as I’d like. The wheels of the 8F are filthy, so it’s not a surprise really…

 

What’s the current thinking as to the best way to clean wheels these days? Isopropyl Alcohol? Methylated Spirits? PECO’s wire brush and scraper? Huffing on them?

[Tortuga]

Just had a thought; I changed the designations of my wiring colours after posting what they were, but I don’t think I updated the thread.

 

So, for the record:

Red: positive 12v DC feed to track

Black: negative 12v DC feed to track (black to back)

Green: common (12v DC) feed to point frogs (frogs are green)

White: common (12v DC) feeds to tandem point frogs (frogs are white in this case)

Orange: front 16v AC feed to point motors from passing contact switches

Brown: rear 16v AC feed to point motors from passing contact switches (brown to back)

Blue: 16v AC feed to point motors

Yellow: 16v AC feed to passing contact switches 

[Tortuga]

Oh, and I forgot to say, I decided to wake up the “sleeper in the coal” as I didn’t want to lose him when I moved the loco downstairs to play with carry out testing, and it turns out @Peter Kazmierczak might’ve been right - ‘e was as stiff as a board ‘e wor!

 

Needless to say t’local Bobby’s been tol’ an’ ‘e’s investigation’. Furst reports sez victim were awfu’ ‘eavy ter move, so t’polis suspects Lead Poisonin’.

[Tortuga]

Wiring on the extension board is complete, I’ve managed to swap over the wires on the switches so the movement of the toggle is in the direction I want the train to go and I’ve managed to get the crossover points to switch in opposite directions at the same time, exactly as planned!

 

What wasn’t planned was somehow trimming the operating rod on one point motor too short. 😖

 

B****r.

Edited January 14 by Tortuga
Missing words

[Tortuga]

Turns out the “short” rod isn’t too much of an issue: I’ve removed the 6mm wooden spacer I’d originally fitted twixt motor and baseboard and, fortunately, the rod is just long enough to operate the point.

 

I’ve cleaned the wheels of the 8F, leading to improved running, though I feel there is still room for further improvement.

I’ve also done a little more playing testing, which has revealed an unexpected issue - I’m getting buffer locking when the 8F is propelling wagons loco first, which has thrown a bit of a damper on things tbh.

[Tortuga]

While the buffer locking during loco-first propelling is a touch frustrating (I thought I’d preempted it with a minimum radius of 3’!!!), it’s not the end of the world as tender-first propelling was also used at the real Shallcrosss and, from initial tests, doesn’t result in buffer locking.

 

I also have other locos to trial - Super Ds, an Ivatt 4F and Fowler 4Fs - but wheel cleaning of these will have to wait until I find my locomotive cradle (note to self: a block of scrap MDF doesn’t do lamp irons and good).

 

That leaves me unable to progress with Priority 4 until I determine how prevalent the buffer locking issue is, since I might have to rethink my coupling preference from 3-links to a centre-buffer type of auto-coupler.

 

In the meantime, I’ll move on to starting some track detailing - buffer stops and point levers. Watch this space!

[Graham T]

Buffer locking and three link couplings - that sounds oh so familiar, and I feel your pain!

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

ISTR that some 8F's were fitted with oversize front buffers to prevent this sort of thing happening on the Whaley shunt!

Well, rule one and all that!

 

Mike.

[Middlepeak]

20 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Turns out the “short” rod isn’t too much of an issue: I’ve removed the 6mm wooden spacer I’d originally fitted twixt motor and baseboard and, fortunately, the rod is just long enough to operate the point.

 

I’ve cleaned the wheels of the 8F, leading to improved running, though I feel there is still room for further improvement.

I’ve also done a little more playing testing, which has revealed an unexpected issue - I’m getting buffer locking when the 8F is propelling wagons loco first, which has thrown a bit of a damper on things tbh.

 

Thinking back to your buffer locking problem, is there just one place on the layout where it happens? If so, can you take a picture of it, looking down the track towards the front end of the 8F? That might indicate a spot where the curvature is tighter than you think. I'm sure we've all had that problem at some stage!

 

The other thought is that (I presume) there's no over-centre springing on the pony truck of the 8F. That would suggest that the front set of wheels are not leading the rest of the chassis into the curve, as one would expect on the real thing. I'm not sure if there's a ready solution to that, especially as I've never had anything as large as a 2-8-0 to run on my layout. Maybe some form of spring to reduce side play would help?

 

[Tortuga]

2 hours ago, Graham T said:

Buffer locking and three link couplings - that sounds oh so familiar, and I feel your pain!

Thanks for the sympathy!

Fortunately, a more intensive testing session confirms the issue is restricted to the 8F running loco first and no problems are encountered running first.

 

The session also confirmed that no buffer locking issues were encountered with Super Ds regardless of running direction.

[Tortuga]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

ISTR that some 8F's were fitted with oversize front buffers to prevent this sort of thing happening on the Whaley shunt!

Well, rule one and all that!

 

Mike.

I’m sure I read that somewhere as well…

 

I'm going to have to test whether the same issue occurs when propelling a Stanier brake van, since Alsop has hidden curves of 2’ radius…

[Tortuga]

1 hour ago, Middlepeak said:

Thinking back to your buffer locking problem, is there just one place on the layout where it happens? If so, can you take a picture of it, looking down the track towards the front end of the 8F? That might indicate a spot where the curvature is tighter than you think. I'm sure we've all had that problem at some stage!

 

The other thought is that (I presume) there's no over-centre springing on the pony truck of the 8F. That would suggest that the front set of wheels are not leading the rest of the chassis into the curve, as one would expect on the real thing. I'm not sure if there's a ready solution to that, especially as I've never had anything as large as a 2-8-0 to run on my layout. Maybe some form of spring to reduce side play would help?

Hi Geraint.

 

There’s three spots where it happens: two are on turnouts, but the third is on a section that might’ve changed radius between planning and track laying. I’ll try and get some photos like you suggest tomorrow.

 

Your second thought occurred to me also.  The loco does seem to “nose out” noticeably on the curves and there seems to be more slightly more side play than on my Bachmann Super Ds.  The wheelsets on the 8F do seem to have softer side springing in comparison and obviously the 8F is longer (approx 20mm), though the length of the coupled wheelbase is pretty much the same.  I could tweak the wiper contacts so they press more firmly on the backs of the driving wheels to stiffen up the side play if you think that’s worth a try?

The pony truck isn’t sprung, though it is on Hornby’s cam arrangement, so I don’t know if some element of overcentre spring could/should be incorporated into that?

[Middlepeak]

Sounds like a loco problem rather than a track problem, so the only answer is to put some side springing on the pony truck.

 

That said, there is photographic evidence that the Whaley Shunt would sometimes work into the yard tender first, so that would eliminate the problem!

 

G

[Tortuga]

On 16/01/2024 at 08:20, Middlepeak said:

Sounds like a loco problem rather than a track problem, so the only answer is to put some side springing on the pony truck.

I agree and I’ll be looking into that in more detail as a future project…

 

On 16/01/2024 at 08:20, Middlepeak said:

That said, there is photographic evidence that the Whaley Shunt would sometimes work into the yard tender first, so that would eliminate the problem!

 

G

…since ^^^this^^^, plus the successful testing with the Super D, means I’m sufficiently happy to go ahead and fit 3-links to my locos and rolling stock - we have green light for Priority 4, I repeat, green light for Priority 4!

[Tortuga]

@JustinDean @Middlepeak I’d appreciate your thoughts on whether this offering from South Eastern Finecast is a close-ish match to the rough stone walling at Shallcross?

 

Not sure whether its also close to Derbyshire Drystone Walling as well?