What worked the Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street trains before the Swindon Intercity DMUs

[GordonC]

Before the Swindon Intercity DMUs took over around 1956-1957, what steam locos used to work the Edinburgh Waverley to Glasgow Queen Street via Falkirk high expresses?

I've had a look for photos but struggled to find much before the DMUs other than the Queen of Scots Pullman being A4 hauled

Edited December 28, 2022 by GordonC
typo in title

[D9020 Nimbus]

There are a few mentions in Glasgow's Railways—An Illustrated History (Irwell). There seems to have been some variety — D11/2 "Scottish Directors" and A3 Pacifics. There are other obvious alternatives but I've never seen them mentioned — V2s for example. They were generally banked out of Queen Street by ex-N.B. N15 0-6-2Ts.

 

It's a bit surprising that tank locos weren't used for such a short journey.

[phil_sutters]

While we were on a family holiday at Monifieth up on the north east coast in August 1952, Dad obviously sneaked off for a spot of shed bashing in Edinburgh - St. Margaret's & Haymarket. He called in at Thornton Junction on the way there. I have his spotting log book for that period. If it is of interest I can scan the relevant 6 pages. I haven't seen anything that would identify which locos would have been used on which services, but it shows what types were around at that time. I can upload the pages here or send them to you by PM.

Phil 

[GordonC]

I had wondered whether it would have been a tank engine for the short journey and tight terminus at queen street but assumed it would still have been a prestigious route at the time.

 

If tender engines were used, presumably they were turned each trip to be forward facing?

[keefer]

Has always a prestigious route, especially given the legal/business traffic back & forth between the two cities.

In steam days IIRC trains were maybe like 6/7/8 coach trains complete with restaurant-buffet.

Don't have timetables to check but presumably the steam-hauled services were about 1hr? So just long enough a journey to allow/justify food & drink provision (esp. in morning & evening 'business' peaks).

Max. speed was 75mph.

[EDIT: a quick look at the 1955 Summer PTM book has trains of generally 7/8 coaches but up to 10 coaches (inc. RF or RC) for the peak services i.e. those departing around 7-7.30am or 5-5.30pm]

I think the Inter-city DMUs (75mph) brought that down to about 50-55mins, the cl.27s (90mph) to 45-50mins and the cl.47s (100mph) to 42-45mins. - all for trains with only 1 stop, usually Polmont or Falkirk High.

There seemed to be an approx. 10-yr cycle of train 'improvement' esp. important in the late '60s, with the threat of competition from road coaches on the new M8 motorway.

There was a plan to use cl.50s but these were all required (in pairs) for the North end of the WCML services (to match the new 'electric' timings further south) - no other type 3 or 4 diesels were available, hence the rather 'home-made' cl.27 solution.

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by keefer
To add extra info

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, keefer said:

Don't have timetables to check but presumably the steam-hauled services were about 1hr?

About 1hr-1h07 seems typical in the immediate pre DMU period.

 

(In the days when the NBR and Caledonian fought for the traffic (to the point that the Caledonian was running EIGHT Pullman Car Expresses via Shotts!), 55-60 mins was typical by both routes.)

 

2 hours ago, keefer said:

I think the Inter-city DMUs (75mph) brought that down to about 50-55mins

They were 70mph (all 1st Gen DMMUs were), the timings were originally 1 hour as per steam (with one or two stops), unless non-stop then 55 mins

It wasn't until the twice hourly regular service appeared in the mid-60s that it became 55-56 mins Haymarket & Falkirk High or 70 mins all stops via Falkirk Grahamston.

 

2 hours ago, keefer said:

the cl.27s (90mph) to 45-50mins

Originally 43 or 45 mins (Haymarket only or Haymarket & Falkirk High). Worsening reliability saw 2 mins recovery margins inserted to all services in 1977, and another 2 mins in 1978.

 

2 hours ago, keefer said:

cl.47s (100mph) to 42-45mins

Class 27 timings of 47-49 mins until 1982. 

 

Then 44 (43.5 by the WTT) or 47 mins (95mph timings)

 

Then when 100mph was authorised from May 1984, 42 or 45 mins. The former finally besting the original Cl. 27 timings.

 

In May 1985, the service pattern was altered so both services each hour called at Falkirk High, thus 45 mins became the standard timing.

 

In May 1986, alternating calls at Polmont or Linlithgow were added, timing now 48 mins.

 

That lasted until May 1990.

 

The 156s were then used to replace the push-pulls, timings now 50 mins.

 

The 158s ran to the same timings, despite being 90mph capable.

 

Then the 15-min interval service came in September 1999 using new 100mph Class 170s.

 

All trains took 48 mins, calls were XX:00 - Croy, Falkirk H & Haymarket 

XX:15 & XX:45 Falkirk H. Linlithgow & Haymarket 

XX:30 Falkirk H. Polmont & Haymarket 

 

That was changed in 2002 to XX:00 and XX:30 calling Croy, Falkirk High & Haymarket in 48 mins, XX:15 and XX:45 Falkirk High, Polmont, Linlithgow, Haymarket in 50 mins.

 

The 385 electrics managed to accelerate things down to 42-46 mins on average but in 2020 the 15 min interval service was cut to half-hourly, thus all services now made more calls.

 

The May 2022 timetable saw the 30-min interval normalised but the 15 min interval returned in the peak (albeit the additional services call at Bishopbriggs & Lenzie plus Falkirk High and Haymarket rather than the previous pattern).

 

Services presently take mostly 49-52 mins with 5 stops, and pathing allowances approaching Haymarket particularly can be excessive but unavoidable at times.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, hexagon789 said:

4 hours ago, keefer said:

 

They were 70mph (all 1st Gen DMMUs were)

 

Nitpicking I know, but the Swindon 1962 4-car Inter City, class 123, and 5-car Trans-Pennine, class 124, were allowed 75 mph; they had different gearboxes and the 123s had B4 bogies.  Accelleration on the 123s was noticeably a bit sluggish, which is probably why they were cut to 3-car sets in their later lives.

[Downendian]

Of course the Queen street - Waverley Swindon inter city units were not class 123s which were delivered to the WR, but the earlier 79XXX numbered Series 

nice history here

https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/swindon-79xxx/operations 

I remember lines of them scrapped at Swindon works in 1975

Neil

[pH]

13 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

There are a few mentions in Glasgow's Railways—An Illustrated History (Irwell).

There are several mentions, both in text and  picture captions, of locomotives used between Queen Street and Waverley. Not all were used on trains just to/from Waverley - some were going beyond Waverley on the ECML.

 

There is also information in Glasgow Railway Memories (Irwell).

 

Dates are from 1950 to 1955 (there are also quite detailed records from the winter of 1947, but I’ve not included those.)

 

So (in no particular order): B1, A2, V2, D11/2, A3, A1, Standard 5.

Edited December 29, 2022 by pH

[keefer]

Thanks very much @hexagon789, very comprehensive!

My info was working very much from memory, I'll maybe claim I was nearly right 🙂

[keefer]

3 hours ago, Downendian said:

Of course the Queen street - Waverley Swindon inter city units were not class 123s which were delivered to the WR, but the earlier 79XXX numbered Series 

nice history here

https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/swindon-79xxx/operations 

I remember lines of them scrapped at Swindon works in 1975

Neil

And as an aside, despite the rather basic (lack of) visual design, these units were at the forefront of integral-body construction - which would eventually lead to the Mk2 coach.

[ardbealach]

I can recall regularly travelling on the 79xxx dmus back in the Sixties.  They certainly could shift when wound up.  The evening trains always seemed to have the train heating turned up full blast.  It certainly helped you sleep on the train after a few pints+ in Rose St in Edinburgh and made for a quiet journey home.  (Alisdair)

[hexagon789]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Nitpicking I know, but the Swindon 1962 4-car Inter City, class 123, and 5-car Trans-Pennine, class 124, were allowed 75 mph; they had different gearboxes and the 123s had B4 bogies.  Accelleration on the 123s was noticeably a bit sluggish, which is probably why they were cut to 3-car sets in their later lives.

Not nitpicking I'm afraid, just incorrect.

 

The 123s and 124s had Wilson SE4 gearboxes, the same as the 110s, 111s, 112s, 113s, 114s, 115s and 128s. The ratios were identical to the R14 used on almost all the 150bhp DMU power cars but designed for the higher torque outputs of the 180, 230 and 238bhp engine types.

 

The maximum continuous speed on half-worn wheels was 65.75mph in 4th gear.

 

I've never understood where the idea that the 123s and 124s (and im not picking at yourself specifically, I've seen it mentioned in a few places) were designed for 75mph comes from, but the driving instructions stipulates 70mph quite clearly.

 

1 hour ago, keefer said:

Thanks very much @hexagon789, very comprehensive!

My info was working very much from memory, I'll maybe claim I was nearly right 🙂

Thanks, Keefer. Was written as part of a correction to a magazine article on the service.

 

 

 

[Downendian]

There are plenty of steam era photos on the wonderful Railscot website, many of which are identified as Queen St Waverley workings 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/companies/E/Edinburgh_and_Glasgow_Railway/ 
Neil 

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

 

I've never understood where the idea that the 123s and 124s (and im not picking at yourself specifically, I've seen it mentioned in a few places) were designed for 75mph comes from, but the driving instructions stipulates 70mph quite clearly

 

Not just mentioned, hexagon; not claiming that my memory is faultless in such matters and it was a long time ago, but I'm convinced I remember 75mph stipulated in the cabs of 123s when I worked on the railway in the 70s.  As I say, they were noticeably slower off the mark but ran faster and the ride was better than the 'standard' 1st generation sets.  They had a distinctive rasp as well, shared with the Trans Pennines.

 

What the nominal speed limits were and what the sets could actually do were not the same thing either.  At Canton, many of our 120s were past their best and some struggled to manage over 60 into a headwind even with 4 engines up and running.  OTOH, on a New Year's Eve dash from Aber Jc with the empty stock of the last train to Caerphilly, a 116, on a 90mph road from Wernddu (Caerphilly end of Caerphilly Tunnel) to Crockherbtown, we ran flat out with the speedo needle against the stop from Cefn Onn, shutting off a Monthermer Road Bridge and applying full service brakes at Crwys Road Bridge, speed working up to what I estimated at the mid 80s; too dark to time it on the quartermile posts.  Brakes off at Crockherbtown for 40mph through the junction off the Rhymney and Queen Street Station, 15mph for the CEJ bridge and back up to 35mph through Central, down again for the run on to the carriage sidings through the washer, engines off and me applying the handbrake.  I would be unable to state that we were both out of the cab and on the way to the pub for last orders at the Craddock before the train actually came to a stand, or that Aber over the shunt to Canton carriage sidings 7 minutes non-stop is probably a record and probably still stands.

 

On another occasion I went with a driver on the cushions to pick up a 116 DMS from Swindon, ex-works.  Again, night time so unable to time the train by sight, but the needle was against the stop all the way from Wootton Bassett (wasn't Royal in those days) to Stoke Gifford, and we were certainly popping along, possibly 90mph and certainly high 80s.  Ride wasn't bad, a bit bouncy but it never felt unsafe, and we might have had a problem stopping if a board had been put back on us...

 

A 'strong' set could easily top 70mph on the flat, and I had a run with a 117 Hereford-Kidderminster on a Severn Valley volunteering jaunt with a Hereford driver who remembered me from my railway days (we'd run out of fuel with a 31 at Nantyderry); this set could manage 70mph uphill, and came out of

Edited December 30, 2022 by The Johnster

[45125]

10 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

Not just mentioned, hexagon; not claiming that my memory is faultless in such matters and it was a long time ago, but I'm convinced I remember 75mph stipulated in the cabs of 123s when I worked on the railway in the 70s.  As I say, they were noticeably slower off the mark but ran faster and the ride was better than the 'standard' 1st generation sets.  They had a distinctive rasp as well, shared with the Trans Pennines.

 

What the nominal speed limits were and what the sets could actually do were not the same thing either.  At Canton, many of our 120s were past their best and some struggled to manage over 60 into a headwind even with 4 engines up and running.  OTOH, on a New Year's Eve dash from Aber Jc with the empty stock of the last train to Caerphilly, a 116, on a 90mph road from Wernddu (Caerphilly end of Caerphilly Tunnel) to Crockherbtown, we ran flat out with the speedo needle against the stop from Cefn Onn, shutting off a Monthermer Road Bridge and applying full service brakes at Crwys Road Bridge, speed working up to what I estimated at the mid 80s; too dark to time it on the quartermile posts.  Brakes off at Crockherbtown for 40mph through the junction off the Rhymney and Queen Street Station, 15mph for the CEJ bridge and back up to 35mph through Central, down again for the run on to the carriage sidings through the washer, engines off and me applying the handbrake.  I would be unable to state that we were both out of the cab and on the way to the pub for last orders at the Craddock before the train actually came to a stand, or that Aber over the shunt to Canton carriage sidings 7 minutes non-stop is probably a record and probably still stands.

 

On another occasion I went with a driver on the cushions to pick up a 116 DMS from Swindon, ex-works.  Again, night time so unable to time the train by sight, but the needle was against the stop all the way from Wootton Bassett (wasn't Royal in those days) to Stoke Gifford, and we were certainly popping along, possibly 90mph and certainly high 80s.  Ride wasn't bad, a bit bouncy but it never felt unsafe, and we might have had a problem stopping if a board had been put back on us...

123s and 124s were 70mph stipulated in the cabs plus red line at 70 on the speedo.

 

Al Taylor

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

I'm convinced I remember 75mph stipulated in the cabs of 123s

Could you possibly be thinking of SR DEMU'S, classes 201-207? They were 75mph.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 28/12/2022 at 11:54, GordonC said:

What worked the Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street trains before the Swindon Intercity DMUs

 

Proper trains.  With steam engines at the front!

[pH]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Proper trains.  With steam engines at the front!

… and at the back, for part of the way east!

Edited December 29, 2022 by pH

[ardbealach]

I recall how effortlessly the 79xxx tackled the climb up Cowlairs Incline compared with the steady slog of a steam engine and banker.  (Alisdair)

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, ardbealach said:

I recall how effortlessly the 79xxx tackled the climb up Cowlairs Incline compared with the steady slog of a steam engine and banker.  (Alisdair)

I never travelled on one (not that I remember), but I attended Bishopbriggs High and saw them go past every day.

Until one day, one died outside the football grounds and it took about an hour to get out of the way. I didn't see how it got shifted, but I watched a parade of trains, that had been held up behind it, come slowly up to the signal, wait for it to change to amber and move off. I seem to remember it took about an hour to clear the backlog.

[BlackFivesMatter]

Don’t forget that in the Castlecary accident of 1938, the  A3 was on and Edinburgh to Glasgow service, the Scott on a Dundee to Glasgow working.