Formula 1 2023

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mercedes fined over parc ferme/podium ceremony.

 

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-summoned-over-f1-spanish-gp-parc-ferme-rules-breach-/10478685/

 

The FIA can apparently impose some rules very effectively (see also Steiners' reprimand for criticising stewards), but not usually the ones involving racing.

[EddieB]

A standout race, especially given the big differences in qualifying performance between team-mates.  There's a bunching up of drivers in the mid-pack, where I thought Piastri deserved better and Tsunoda unfairly penalised.   A good race by both Merckx, but I'm surprised that Russell was allowed to keep the places he'd made up on the opening lap - a leaf out of the vintage Alonso playbook?

[Pete the Elaner]

4 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Mercedes fined over parc ferme/podium ceremony.

 

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-summoned-over-f1-spanish-gp-parc-ferme-rules-breach-/10478685/

 

The FIA can apparently impose some rules very effectively (see also Steiners' reprimand for criticising stewards), but not usually the ones involving racing.

 

Racing rules are harder to enforce, with more areas of grey, but I think the annoyance is that they don't even seem to bother trying.

[Pete the Elaner]

5 hours ago, Gareth Collier said:

Possibly the most interesting race of the season (not a lot of competition) with some overtaking even if only DRS assisted.

Perez needs to track down Marko/Horner's auto destruct button they use in qualifying to ensure he doesn't get in the way of their golden boy.

 

I think Perez is trying too hard & that is when mistakes happen. He is not as good at driving consistently close to the limit as Verstappen. The team would be mad to sabotage their own driver & I don't think they do. They just give Verstappen the benefit of better treatment when they are forced to choose.

Remember that he drove for McLaren in 2013 & although he only finished 2 places behind Button, he was a bit disappointing & moved on after 1 season. Red Bull also signed him late when he was out of contract. He was in a poor position to negotiate for equal treatment.

[black and decker boy]

8 hours ago, EddieB said:

A standout race, especially given the big differences in qualifying performance between team-mates.  There's a bunching up of drivers in the mid-pack, where I thought Piastri deserved better and Tsunoda unfairly penalised.   A good race by both Merckx, but I'm surprised that Russell was allowed to keep the places he'd made up on the opening lap - a leaf out of the vintage Alonso playbook?

The sky team reviewed the footage and said he’d actually completed all of the passes before the corner and before he went off. He then followed the rules and used the run off lane all the way round - quite probably Alonso-esq but also very legal. He didn’t make any passes by doing so though.

[njee20]

Well yes, if you don’t brake for turn 1 you can complete loads of overtakes on those who do, then just send it down the escape road 🤣

 

I think amid the inevitable chaos at turn 1 it would be virtually impossible to expect him to cede position, even if he did gain. They put in an additional ‘chicane’ which he followed after all. Worked better then the Sochi one which just sent you into the wall!

 

Definitely felt for Tsunoda, he didn’t deserve a penalty at all. Good race though, finally! The removal of that awful chicane made for much improved racing. 

[Pete the Elaner]

On 05/06/2023 at 08:28, njee20 said:

Well yes, if you don’t brake for turn 1 you can complete loads of overtakes on those who do, then just send it down the escape road 🤣

 

I think amid the inevitable chaos at turn 1 it would be virtually impossible to expect him to cede position, even if he did gain. They put in an additional ‘chicane’ which he followed after all. Worked better then the Sochi one which just sent you into the wall!

 

 

Wasn't it Sainz who hit the wall in Sochi by trying to go around the penalty cone way too fast? Everyone else managed it because they were not trying to negate the penalty by going flat out.

 

Regarding Russell: what is the point of a penalty cone if the penalty route is fairly quick? It should not be possible to comply without losing a decent amount of time because that is the whole point of a penalty.

Ideally the FIA will review it & decide that the cone is insufficient penalty, then move it for next year to make it do its job properly. I doubt it though, it is the FIA: they will bury their heads in the sand & hope it does not happen again, like they usually do.

[30368]

Sorry that it is not F1 but this year sees the Centenary of the Flying Scotsman and the running of the Le Mans 24 Hours (Saturday 4pm). The World Endurance Championship is really shaping up well with a good number of manufacturers entering in the Hypercar class. I shall be watching all (well probably not all....) the coverage on:

 

https://fiawec.tv/page/63bd6de3ee32537e4169d9a5

 

The cost is about £40 for coverage of the whole championship. Somehow it seems more about racing than the increasingly "Celebrity" direction of F1. I have followed and enjoyed both for many years but just getting a bit bored with F1 at present.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[LNERandBR]

17 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Wasn't it Sainz who hit the wall in Sochi by trying to go around the penalty cone way too fast? Everyone else managed it because they were not trying to negate the penalty by going flat out.

 

Regarding Russell: what is the point of a penalty cone if the penalty route is fairly quick? It should not be possible to comply without losing a decent amount of time because that is the whole point of a penalty.

Ideally the FIA will review it & decide that the cone is insufficient penalty, then move it for next year to make it do its job properly. I doubt it though, it is the FIA: they will bury their heads in the sand & hope it does not happen again, like they usually do.

 

I think the point is to prevent someone taking the shortcut to gain an advantage. If it takes the same amount of time to negotiate the cones and rejoin then I think that's a good thing.

 

Of course, if there was just grass and gravel there then that would negate any sort of advantage gained anyway. 😄

[njee20]

1 hour ago, 30368 said:

Sorry that it is not F1 but this year sees the Centenary of the Flying Scotsman and the running of the Le Mans 24 Hours (Saturday 4pm). The World Endurance Championship is really shaping up well with a good number of manufacturers entering in the Hypercar class. I shall be watching all (well probably not all....) the coverage on:

 

https://fiawec.tv/page/63bd6de3ee32537e4169d9a5

 

The cost is about £40 for coverage of the whole championship. Somehow it seems more about racing than the increasingly "Celebrity" direction of F1. I have followed and enjoyed both for many years but just getting a bit bored with F1 at present.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

There's a separate thread for non-F1 motorsport.

 

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Wasn't it Sainz who hit the wall in Sochi by trying to go around the penalty cone way too fast? Everyone else managed it because they were not trying to negate the penalty by going flat out.

 

Regarding Russell: what is the point of a penalty cone if the penalty route is fairly quick? It should not be possible to comply without losing a decent amount of time because that is the whole point of a penalty.

Ideally the FIA will review it & decide that the cone is insufficient penalty, then move it for next year to make it do its job properly. I doubt it though, it is the FIA: they will bury their heads in the sand & hope it does not happen again, like they usually do.

I forget who it was, but yes, someone did, hence my comment. The problem was more (or equally) that the trajectory of the penalty route set you up to drive straight into the wall; it's hardly unreasonable to assume that F1 drivers will drive as quickly through it as they can, not pootle through at 5mph 'just in case'. It does seem a bit that there's no pleasing people. Monaco is a procession because there are no run offs at all, and that's boring. We got loads of overtakes into turn 1, but the run off area isn't good enough. What do people want? I think Spain's solution is a good balance, my comment about not braking for turn 1 was obviously tongue in cheek, no penalty was needed because Russel didn't benefit from avoiding the chicane, plus he picked up all kinds of crap on his tyres. I'd like to hope that if he had deliberately avoided it, even if he's "completed the overtakes" before the chicane he'd have been penalised because the sentiment would have been clear.

[Reorte]

18 minutes ago, njee20 said:

 It does seem a bit that there's no pleasing people. Monaco is a procession because there are no run offs at all, and that's boring. We got loads of overtakes into turn 1, but the run off area isn't good enough. What do people want?

It's not a lack of runoff that makes overtaking at Monaco almost impossible, it's the narrow and twisty track layout. Runoff is about avoiding accidents if a driver makes a mistake, not helping overtaking.

[Oldddudders]

49 minutes ago, Reorte said:

It's not a lack of runoff that makes overtaking at Monaco almost impossible, it's the narrow and twisty track layout. Runoff is about avoiding accidents if a driver makes a mistake, not helping overtaking.

Monaco is wholly unsuited to 'racing' F1 cars in C21. The same sort of logic, when applied to Brands Hatch many years ago, was quite sufficient to ensure the BRDC-owned but flat and boring Silverstone got the nod for the BGP. But Monaco is about  glamour, prestige and money, so 'racing' is unimportant......

[OnTheBranchline]

5 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Monaco is wholly unsuited to 'racing' F1 cars in C21. The same sort of logic, when applied to Brands Hatch many years ago, was quite sufficient to ensure the BRDC-owned but flat and boring Silverstone got the nod for the BGP. But Monaco is about  glamour, prestige and money, so 'racing' is unimportant......

Racing at Monaco is like bowling, it always sounds like more fun than it actually is.

[OnTheBranchline]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

It's not a lack of runoff that makes overtaking at Monaco almost impossible, it's the narrow and twisty track layout. Runoff is about avoiding accidents if a driver makes a mistake, not helping overtaking.

They should have DRS through the tunnel.

[PeterStiles]

11 minutes ago, OnTheBranchline said:

DRS through the tunne

and/or: make the chicane after the tunnel the same as in Gran Turismo - a wall...

 

[njee20]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

It's not a lack of runoff that makes overtaking at Monaco almost impossible, it's the narrow and twisty track layout. Runoff is about avoiding accidents if a driver makes a mistake, not helping overtaking.

Whilst I agree, the two go hand in hand. Of course there's going to be more of a gung ho attitude if there's a lower penalty for failure. i know Saint Devote has a run-off that's seen plenty of use, but there's no chance of running 'a bit wide', which is a very strong disincentive. That balance needs to be right-sized. I think Barcelona is a good mix myself, YMMV. Endless tarmac (looking at you Paul Ricard) isn't the answer of course.

[Reorte]

3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Monaco is wholly unsuited to 'racing' F1 cars in C21. The same sort of logic, when applied to Brands Hatch many years ago, was quite sufficient to ensure the BRDC-owned but flat and boring Silverstone got the nod for the BGP. But Monaco is about  glamour, prestige and money, so 'racing' is unimportant......

Not just this century, people were saying the same thing back in the 80s.

[Reorte]

2 hours ago, njee20 said:

Whilst I agree, the two go hand in hand. Of course there's going to be more of a gung ho attitude if there's a lower penalty for failure. i know Saint Devote has a run-off that's seen plenty of use, but there's no chance of running 'a bit wide', which is a very strong disincentive. That balance needs to be right-sized. I think Barcelona is a good mix myself, YMMV. Endless tarmac (looking at you Paul Ricard) isn't the answer of course.

I think the majority of F1 drivers, being very driven people right at the top of their game (you have to be to get that far, with a few exceptions) are the type of people who'll go for any plausible-looking gap that they can. It's not the chance of something going wrong that puts them off, by nature they'll be risk-takers, so will go for it regardless. I suspect a top racing driver fears losing far more than crashing, so won't be put off by such penalties of failure (whilst - mostly - staying on the right side of reckless).

 

So on a circuit like Barcelona I really think they'd try the same sort of moves if there was a concrete wall rather than tarmac on the outside - they'll just go as close to whatever the limits are that they can. Not saying that there should be concrete walls of course! Just whatever limits are possible, drivers will try to go right up to them. You can't win a championship if you don't.

[Invicta Informant]

6 hours ago, 30368 said:

Sorry that it is not F1 but this year sees the Centenary of the Flying Scotsman and the running of the Le Mans 24 Hours (Saturday 4pm). The World Endurance Championship is really shaping up well with a good number of manufacturers entering in the Hypercar class. I shall be watching all (well probably not all....) the coverage on:

 

https://fiawec.tv/page/63bd6de3ee32537e4169d9a5

 

The cost is about £40 for coverage of the whole championship. Somehow it seems more about racing than the increasingly "Celebrity" direction of F1. I have followed and enjoyed both for many years but just getting a bit bored with F1 at present.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

Eurosport have the coverage (in the UK at least) and they shall be covering not only all of the race, but free practice and qualifying on Wednesday and Thursday, and the Saturday morning warm-up.

 

There should be more manufacturers joining next year, with Alpine, BMW, Lamborghini, Isotta Fraschini, and possibly De Tomaso. Bear in mind there is already Toyota, Ferrari, Peugeot, Porsche, Cadillac, Glickenhaus, and Vanwall. Top level sportscar racing looks in a much healthy state than it did a few years ago with the demise of LMP1.

 

Talking of celebrity, the official starter of this year's Le Mans is NBA star LeBron James. No idea why (his team, the LA Lakers, are not in the NBA Finals). He does not have any connection to motorsport as far as I know. Previous official starters have included Brad Pitt, Rafael Nadal, Georges Pompidou, and Steve McQueen. It should really go to someone like Tom Kristensen or Jacky Ickx.

[njee20]

Sounds like a good topic of discussion on the non-F1 motorsport thread, here: 

 

[Oldddudders]

I bet Toto and co are quaking!

 

https://www.pitpass.com/75329/Aston-Martin-to-crush-Mercedes-in-Canada-vows-Alonso

 

[woodenhead]

33 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I bet Toto and co are quaking!

 

https://www.pitpass.com/75329/Aston-Martin-to-crush-Mercedes-in-Canada-vows-Alonso

 

The quest to be the best second best team in F1

 

Everyone has given up on winning and they will all be working towards 2024, so RedBull effectively got off scott free for overspending because they don't need to develop their 2023 car.  All Mercedes and Aston can hope for is second but they will be thinking about race one of 2024 with any developments aiming to on par with Red Bull.

 

Ferrari - who knows what they are planning, they seem to make it up as they go along.

[OnTheBranchline]

 

[Pete the Elaner]

20 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I bet Toto and co are quaking!

 

https://www.pitpass.com/75329/Aston-Martin-to-crush-Mercedes-in-Canada-vows-Alonso

 

 

Poor old Fred can't keep his gob shut can he?

He got beat fair & square by Stroll in qualy for Barcelona. Everyone has good & bad races including Stroll. Alonso always seems to take this badly & if his previous is anything to go by, his honeymoon period with his new team is over. The trash talk has started & now the moaning will follow.

[Pete the Elaner]

20 hours ago, woodenhead said:

The quest to be the best second best team in F1

 

Everyone has given up on winning and they will all be working towards 2024, so RedBull effectively got off scott free for overspending because they don't need to develop their 2023 car.  All Mercedes and Aston can hope for is second but they will be thinking about race one of 2024 with any developments aiming to on par with Red Bull.

 

Ferrari - who knows what they are planning, they seem to make it up as they go along.

 

They are chasing a moving target though. What do you think Red Bull will do? Keep pushing until the end of the season even after they have won both titles by a mile? A driver's 1-2 is a bonus for them. They are only really interested in driver's & constructor's titles, which they proved that last year. Once they have these 2 in the bag, they will switch to next year's car. This will be sooner rather than later if other teams do the same.