An O gauge station for Barry

[Halton Boy]

Hello everyone

My friend Barry has asked me to design a terminus station in O gauge. The base boards will be 16 feet by 30 inches.

At present after discussion on this site I have decided to base Barry's layout on Clevedon and Abingdon.

Here are the plans of both stations:

[Harlequin]

Hi (again 😉),

 

Would it be correct to assume this is to be steam era GWR?

 

What track system or type of track will be employed? Off-the-shelf Peco Streamline, Settrack or something else?

 

Will the couplings be authentic 3-link chains (thus requiring easy access by hand to any position where coupings need to be attached/removed) or a type that can be operated remotely?

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Harlequin

[Halton Boy]

Hello

This is GWR 1945 to 1965. The track will be Peco code 124. The couplings are 3 link.

Barry already has far to many wagons and engines from Lionheart, Minerva and Dapol. A new engine has arrived today he tells me.

The engines are DCC with sound. That's the problem when you work seven days a week, lots of money but no free time.

Here is a photo of Clevedon and two photos of Abingdon. The two station share some layout features.

It looks like the size of the loading bay was changed at Abingdon.

[Halton Boy]

Hello

I have started with a basic plan based on the two stations Clevedon and Abingdon.

The first thing I have done is to remove the station building and the platform canopy. There will not be a back scene and there will be access to both sides of the layout. This is the start of the layout plan. The loading dock may be modified.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Halton Boy
Text added

[Schooner]

2 hours ago, Halton Boy said:

There will not be a back scene and there will be access to both sides of the layout.

 

Worth double-checking this is the best approach in the available space. Typically it leads to less space around narrower layouts - worst of both! - so best be sure this is the right way for you to go.

 

Do you know what Barry wants, operationally? What does 'playing trains' mean to him? 

 

I assume the 16' is inclusive any storage/fiddle yard?

 

Roll on another BLT thread, love'em. Good luck!

[Harlequin]

Assuming that you have got access to both sides (but Schooner makes a good point) here are some ideas:

 

A main line run into the platform that is dead straight and parallel to the baseboard edge means you miss out on the dynamics of the moving train. Conversely, you don't want it to wiggle through crossovers into the platform because that looks artificial, so a simple curve and a simple angle might be good if you can do it.

 

When a train arrives at the platform and the loco needs to be uncoupled the platform might be a hindrance for getting at the 3-link chains so maybe put the platform line (and therefore the loop line) outside the platform.

 

The platform could then perhaps be an elongated triangle and there might be enough room for a small station building on the wider part. The building wouldn't get in the way now that it's in the middle of the baseboard. Adds some nice character.

 

The engine shed could sensibly kick back off the loop if the loop was on the outside of the plan and maybe become a view blocker that screens the entrance/exit to the FY.

 

I would suggest not bothering with a headshunt because they weren't that common at GWR BLTs and it makes the connection to the FY more open and more complicated.

 

The goods yard would then be behind the platform, accessible from the other side of the layout for uncoupling, with the longest sidings you can manage. One passing through the goods shed or if there's not room for a full-size shed, alongside a smaller line-side goods shed.

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Harlequin

[Halton Boy]

Hello

Thank you both for your advice.

Barry wants a layout where he can shunt wagons around. As the layout is O gauge this would mean having the points operated from a DCC concepts lever frame and the wagons and coaches using the three link couplings.

Barry wants lots of interesting moves of wagons, but in a real railway setting, so no inglenook type layout.

Thinking about what you have said I wounder if I could reduce the height and size of the platform so that it would not impede access to the couplings. Have the platform represented by a 20mm 1/2" tall 25mm 1" wide piece of wood.

Put the station building back and install a plain back scene.

Trains using the platform will just be a passenger coach and mail vans, so not a lot of operational play value there. But the platform is necessary to tie everything together.

The other option is to turn everything around and have the station as the back scene.

The 16' includes a 3' fiddle yard. 

Plan number four with the back scene is the basic idea which I will develop.

The station building will be only the frontage, therefore quite narrow as O gauge takes up a lot of length.

Any advice is very welcome. Thank you. 

 

[Harlequin]

Remember that goods trains would normally arrive into the platform.

 

It's unlikely that a station plan would have separate facing points for the loop and the goods yard, unless there were particular local conditions that required it. Much more likely to cotninue the loop to join the goods feed so that there's only one facing point. The downside of that for the model is that your loco leaves the scene for most run round movements. And BTW for true authenticity you need to include trap points to protect the running line. Depends how far you want to go.

 

[The Stationmaster]

Don't forget that the loading dock at Abingdon was altered, presumably to improve the loading of vehicles from the MG factory .  The two photos give you a fairly broad indication of when the change happened

[Schooner]

7 hours ago, Halton Boy said:

Barry wants a layout where he can shunt wagons around. As the layout is O gauge this would mean having the points operated from a DCC concepts lever frame and the wagons and coaches using the three link couplings.

Cool, sounds good...and familiar - that's the sort of thing I look for too, S Levers an' all!

 

7 hours ago, Halton Boy said:

Barry wants lots of interesting moves of wagons, but in a real railway setting, so no inglenook type layout.

Understood, but do keep the Inglenook in mind: the (5/3/3) + (3+loco) ratio is a well-proven balance of fun and challenge for shunting layouts. Also, they can be attempted in a spare 15 minutes to grab a quick railway sesh, which might be a useful option. On a related note, I'd suggest that a lot of the 'interest' in ''interesting moves'' comes from the stories you can tell, the illusion you sell, the challenges overcome. Otherwise, we're forced to acknowledge that all we're doing is flicking a switch to move a toy train forwards and backwards for an extended period! Finding these stories, the reasons for the moves, becomes an important part of shunting layout design, I think.

 

To continue the example (not answer!) from your prior thread...

...turning the shunting options up a notch - inc. two spots which support, if not enforce, an Inglenook-style puzzle; the tighter radius of the factory siding perhaps justifying a dedicated loco; the layout could even be operated as if the factory-end represented a different location served by an exchange siding on the traverser. One operating position by the station, another by the factory. Add a parcels office at the buffer-stop end of the platform, specific side- and end-loading traffic, and the need to spot traffic on the long sidings, inc, for the shed and/or crane, and you've got quite a bit to be getting on with!

 

Not my cup of tea, and again just an example not an answer for you, but hopefully provokes a thought or two.

[Halton Boy]

Hello and thank you everyone. Your comments are really helpful.

I have come up with a plan that has all the elements Barry wants, but I am not happy with it.

The fiddle yard is not long enough at only 3'. An O gauge coach is about 18" long (458mm) and a CCT wagon is 12" long (300mm).

I have allowed 12" for the engine which means the fiddle yard needs to be 3' 6" minimum. I did shorten the sidings to make a longer fiddle yard, but it did not feel right.

Its all too straight.

Barry has not purchased a coach yet, so I wonder if a parcels depot or something like that would be a better option.

Years ago there were mail order catalogue companies, I wonder if they had a rail network.

The one thing that Barry has insisted on is a run round loop. 

I have just had an idea, Avonmouth docks. They used to bring in bananas.  No its too big.

I know, Sharpness docks, that was Midland Railways. They still open the swing bridge by hand with a big key.

[Harlequin]

Don't give up, I think the original concept is just about do-able.

 

Is it OK if I post a drawing (a complete design) incorporating some of the ideas I described this morning? It might help you see some alternative solutions.

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Harlequin

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Halton Boy said:

Hello and thank you everyone. Your comments are really helpful.

I have come up with a plan that has all the elements Barry wants, but I am not happy with it.

The fiddle yard is not long enough at only 3'. An O gauge coach is about 18" long (458mm) and a CCT wagon is 12" long (300mm).

I have allowed 12" for the engine which means the fiddle yard needs to be 3' 6" minimum. I did shorten the sidings to make a longer fiddle yard, but it did not feel right.

Its all too straight.

Barry has not purchased a coach yet, so I wonder if a parcels depot or something like that would be a better option.

Years ago there were mail order catalogue companies, I wonder if they had a rail network.

The one thing that Barry has insisted on is a run round loop. 

I have just had an idea, Avonmouth docks. They used to bring in bananas.  No its too big.

I know, Sharpness docks, that was Midland Railways. They still open the swing bridge by hand with a big key.

 It looks as if you might be able to compress things a bit by shortening the distance between the connection to the yard/loop and the release crossover which appears to currently stands at 6 feet clear  (=4 coaches).  That would shorten the sidings but - at a rough estimate - they  look quite long with the goods shed siding at nearly 6 feet of usable length and the other siding nearly 5 feet long  

 

5 feet will easily hold 10 ordinary wagons so you have a usable yard capacity of c.21/22 wagons while the cassette, without a loco etc will only hold 6 wagons.  If you shorten the platform line by 1 foot and the sidings by a similar amount you only lose yard accommodation for 4 wagons and your cassette will hold - without a loco  an extra 2 wagons.  The cassette obviously is still not long enough but could it extend beyond the end of the main baseboard?

 

When trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot it is inevitable that compromises will have to be made.  If you are going to run fiddle yard to station the first thing you have to take into account is equalising the train length that the cassette can hold with the length made available to run round the train which arrives from that cassette.  You have no option if you are modelling a traditional type of track layout which involves trains having to run round at the terminus.  All your other planning criteria will, I think, then follow from getting that right.

[Schooner]

19 hours ago, Halton Boy said:

The fiddle yard is not long enough at only 3'

Agreed. Try switching to a Y at the RH of the loop:

 

19 hours ago, Halton Boy said:

The one thing that Barry has insisted on is a run round loop.

That's good to know - although a lot of space can be saved running round via cassette or traverser, it doesn't suit many (myself included) who would rather the moves be visible and hands-free!

 

19 hours ago, Halton Boy said:

...but it did not feel right.

The vital first step in getting to something which does! Well done for identifying why, much better than ploughing on regardless :)

 

19 hours ago, Halton Boy said:

I wonder if a parcels depot or something like that would be a better option.

Perhaps, but - although it may present identical moves - this would be a much more limiting scenario, stock/story-wise. Might be a factor, might not - hard for us to comment either way!

 

19 hours ago, Halton Boy said:

...docks....

I spend far far too long planning dock layouts, so this is a thought I have much sympathy with! However, they're a niche subject and a different prospect entirely to a BLT. Loads of shunting potential, a good excuse for running almost any item of stock you fancy, a busy trackplan looks acceptable etc...but at the expense of passenger working* and limiting loco choice. Again, may or may not be an issue.

 

*Typically. Not impossible to combine but requires extra thought with 30" width.

 

The available space could comfortably take a model of something like Tewkesbury (link to map), or fit in quite a lot of generic dock, eg:

 

Lastly, forgive me - I should have asked your blessing before flooding your topic with layout plans. Offered in the spirit of interest only, in the hope they'll be of some use.

[Halton Boy]

Thank you very much everyone. That is some excellent ideas and food for thought.

I have not given up on Clevedon/ Abingdon which as you point out could be made to work.

I am now going to give Barry another option which is a dock yard layout. I am calling it Sharpness only because I know the area very well.

This is what I have come up with:

The main line engine brings wagons in to the run round loop. Then runs round and picks up the guards van and leaves.

The dock engine collects the wagons from the run round loop and shuts them into the docks. It puts out going wagons into the loop. 

The big problem is the baseboard joins which have to miss the points.

I have made the fiddle yard 3' 6".

Barry has three cassettes which he purchased on e bay.

The green line indicates the fiddle yard. The red lines are base board joins. Wagons can be stored on the wagon store part of the fiddle yard to help with congestion.

I look forward to what you have to say. Thank you everyone.  

[Harlequin]

Here's what I came up with, based on the original brief of access from both sides:

 

 

The grid squares are 305mm (a "metric foot").

 

It's all Peco Streamline Code 124 Bullhead track. Turnouts: 2 * medium left, 1* medium right, 2 * medium Y, 1 curved left.

 

The run round loop is longer than needed for the trains that will arrive from the FY and this means they fit with room to spare and look more realisitically in proportion.

 

The siding running close behind the goods shed is set into the yard surface so that lorries can drive over it to get to the goods shed doors. This arrangement has a prototypical precedent at Lampeter. (It's a really useful feature for compression of track plans but not something you can deploy too often!).

 

The siding running behind the platform is not for passenger access and there would be a fence along the back of the platform. I imagine that the end loading dock was added sometime after the station was originally constructed. To fit it in without radically rebuilding things they slewed the two middle sidings away from the station building.

 

The division between FY and layout (shown as a blue dashed line) could be more subtle than a conventional backscene - maybe just a fence, hedge, trees, buildings or a combination of those things to obscure the FY rather than completely hide it.

 

There is leeway to make the FY longer and the sidings shorter if required.

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Harlequin

[Halton Boy]

Hello Phil

This looks really good. I will put it into Anyrail and see if I can replicate it.

I will check with Barry how long his cassettes are which he purchased from e bay yesterday. The person selling them said that they came from the Midland Railway Centre. They are made of metal with plastic connectors on the ends. I looked them up online and it came up with a company called Metalsmith, but they are no longer available. I will ask Barry to send me the measurements and photos.

I have worked out another plan based on a factory. All my plans have the same fault with the track parallel to the baseboard.

The tractor factory site plan is just to give an idea of what the rest of the site would look like. Vans and wagons would be unloaded onto the factories lorries or forklift trucks.

Thank you for all your help.

[Harlequin]

Thanks! I hope the eBay cassettes are useful whatever the final design turns out to be.

 

AnyRail seems to encourage rather sterile plans - I'm not entirely sure why. I'm using a tool that gives me complete freedom to draw what I want.

 

Here's an improved version that takes more note of what Mike @The Stationmaster said about FY size:

 

The fiddle yard can now marshall trains with a total length of 1220mm (4ft) and, for usability and flexibility, that's done by lining up 2 cassettes of different sizes; 305mm and 915mm. The small 305mm cassettes are for locos and will help with performing run rounds in the FY safely.

 

To achieve this larger capacity in the FY, the station sidings and run round loop have all been reduced by only 60mm and there have been some other minor re-alignments.

 

The station run round loop has approximately 1060mm (3.5ft) of clearance so there's still plenty of room for a loco to run round stock from one of the 3ft cassettes.

 

The baseboards are 1220 + 1440 + 1110 + 1110 length.

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Harlequin

[Halton Boy]

Hello Phil

Barry has sent me the sizes and a photo of the cassettes. The two long ones are 1metre each and the two short ones are 600mm each.

It might be possible to connect a short cassette with a long one and still safely move them. Or two 600mm making 1200mm.

The fiddle yard has to be lower than the layout to allow the cassettes to plug in. 

For passenger working Barry is thinking about a 14xx and a auto coach, or a Pannier tank and a single coach.

Barry has got the 14xx and a Pannier tank but no coaches. 

Would the coach be open or corridor? I am guessing that the coaches would be ERA 3.

Metal Smith only do the cassettes in 32mm at the moment.

Here are the photos:

I have to go to work now as I am on callout. Thank you for you advice.

  

[Flying Pig]

8 hours ago, Harlequin said:

AnyRail seems to encourage rather sterile plans

 

Only if you let it 😉 

[Halton Boy]

Hello everyone

After discussions with the "client", Barry, we have come up with a final list of requirements and a name for the layout.

The layout will be Cleve Station.

There will be an UP siding, a Run round loop and Yard sidings with Goods shed and loading dock.

The engine shed is now only an option as the sidings are more important. There will be a water tower.

I have managed to fit this into the space based on Phil's excellent plan.

The problem is the baseboard joins. Because of the large number of points the scenic boards can only be made in two large units.

Omitting the engine shed may make a difference as it takes out one point and 600mm of track.

The fiddle yard board and the Up siding are on a separate board due to the height difference required by the cassettes.

The Up siding may become a private siding for the printing works, but Barry can do that if he wants to. 

Here is the plan of Cleve station in 1947. Cleve is now a commuter town by the seaside.

The Cleve novelty rock factory is famous the world over and uses the railway.

Trains connect with ships from Cleve pier which go to Newport and Barry's Island.

The Cleve printing works is a major user of the railway. This sees paper coming in and books and magazines going out. 

The printing works have been very busy since their new releases, Spare, Not so Spare, Going Spare and the forthcoming title Spare some cash.

Thank you for your help and advice. This may not be the final plan.

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, Halton Boy said:

Hello everyone

After discussions with the "client", Barry, we have come up with a final list of requirements and a name for the layout.

The layout will be Cleve Station.

There will be an UP siding, a Run round loop and Yard sidings with Goods shed and loading dock.

The engine shed is now only an option as the sidings are more important. There will be a water tower.

I have managed to fit this into the space based on Phil's excellent plan.

The problem is the baseboard joins. Because of the large number of points the scenic boards can only be made in two large units.

Omitting the engine shed may make a difference as it takes out one point and 600mm of track.

The fiddle yard board and the Up siding are on a separate board due to the height difference required by the cassettes.

The Up siding may become a private siding for the printing works, but Barry can do that if he wants to. 

Here is the plan of Cleve station in 1947. Cleve is now a commuter town by the seaside.

The Cleve novelty rock factory is famous the world over and uses the railway.

Trains connect with ships from Cleve pier which go to Newport and Barry's Island.

The Cleve printing works is a major user of the railway. This sees paper coming in and books and magazines going out. 

The printing works have been very busy since their new releases, Spare, Not so Spare, Going Spare and the forthcoming title Spare some cash.

Thank you for your help and advice. This may not be the final plan.

 

Looks good but there are some things to think about:

• As you say, the position of the engine shed means that the point ladder is longer and a single baseboard 2400mm long is really too long to handle.
• To get in and out of the engine shed means you have to keep some of the top siding clear, so it's not as big or useful as it could be.
• The previous two points are also reasons for not having any kind of kickback siding even though there's space on the plan for something there. Best to keep it simple and fill the sapce with scenery.
• The run round loop, by definition, is usually empty and so that's the best place to take off the shed spur because the loco is guaranteed to be able to get in and out. And here's a thought: if the shed was fully on the lowered FY baseboard but at the same level as the scenic boards (I don't think gradients are a good idea) then it would be easy to build the inspection pit in the shed and the ash pit in front of the shed.
• Make sure you leave enough space for the platform to be a minimum scale 6ft wide (that was the regulation for single sided platforms) and more if at all possible because really skinny platforms don't look right (IMHO). Notice that I pushed the running line deep into the bottom right corner to get as much platform length and width as possible.

BTW: Coaches: The typical branch line coaches would have been non-corridor compartment coaches. If the design works out as planned then I think you/Barry should now have room for a two-coach "B-Set", i.e. two close-coupled non-corridor brake composites if you wanted.

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Harlequin

[Halton Boy]

Hello

Here is an update on the Cleve novelty rock factory. Their world famous products include:

Scrumpy cider rock    All right my luvver
Strawberry Sunday rock
Cheddar cheese rock
Cod lot rock,  Cod and chips flavour rock
Pie lot rock, Clarks pie and chips flavour rock 

( A lot is a portion of chips in the Bristol area)
The Cleve printing works specializes in non fiction works and is part of the Hazell, Watson and Viney print group in Tring Road Aylesbury.

Past titles are: Are you looking at my strawberry, Did you spill my cheese and All right our kid.

I hope this helps to set the scene. 

[The Stationmaster]

On 13/01/2023 at 22:54, Harlequin said:

Here's what I came up with, based on the original brief of access from both sides:

 

 

 

 

The siding running behind the platform is not for passenger access and there would be a fence along the back of the platform. I imagine that the end loading dock was added sometime after the station was originally constructed. To fit it in without radically rebuilding things they slewed the two middle sidings away from the station building.

 

 

Why do you want a fence?  Most people in past time had sufficient common sense not to fall off the edge of a station platform; there was little or no risk of pilferage from wagons because there were plenty os station staff about; and fences cost money.  Plus a fence on the platform edge would be foul of the permitted structure gauge.   And - for a real example - there wasn't a fence along the back platform face at Marlow which was also directly adjacent to a siding.

[Halton Boy]

Thank you Phil I will go back to the plan.