Levelling up fund - Belmont station redoubling

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

I wonder if its a prelude to Epsom Down to Belmont closing and bringing this into the cauldron that is Overground ?.. that siding literally ends on the county border, why its not simply a siding that run into reinstating an existing platform is beyond me, but then the whole scheme is beyond me too.

 

 

 

Because that platform would require lots of money spent on it to bring it up to current standards. As such its cheaper to put in a siding to the south which requires much the same track signalling works but avoids any spending on the station itself. Given this scheme has had to 'bid' for funds against others, keeping the BCR within acceptable ratios is critical to securing Treasury funding.

 

This sort of thing is not new - the loop on the Falmouth branch was only possible because they found a way to avoid bringing the second platform back into use which would have added massively to the cost of the scheme and pushed the BCR beyond what was acceptable.

 

It should also be noted that changes will be required to the Westlock interlocking that covers the area - and as with all computerised interlockings, Siemens charge a hefty fee for such changes - which is why enhancements are best done during resignalling schemes to try and reduce costs.

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Yet on the LSWR thread, some posters were getting near threats of personal violence for dare suggesting cutbacks there.

 

Southern /East Surrey might be a lot wealthier than the north, but West/South Surrey is positively  very well off… posters angrily waving abuse for dare suggesting cutting back 10-12 coach trains every few minutes and the hardship of changing at Basingstoke might benefit from going to Manchester Piccadilly plat 13/14 on a Monday morning… when a 2 car 175 arrives with its windows ready to burst out, not knowing if its either by train capacity or rust that’ll blow it.

Theres a big void between north and south on railways, and that chasm is harder to cover up post covid, brexit. 

Levelling up, imo is about levelling down, theres no new money in this, its moving where its spent, imo things are on the up, up north because it really is, theres abuzz up there. But down south its a malaise thats dragging the south downwards towards the level the north was at, so its just moving money, not new money.

But if the south is in a long term depression, then money does need to move and service levels do need to reflect that.

looking at the list, Eden Project for Morecambe strikes me as a fantastic idea. But why is improving the port at Dover a project for “levelling up”…surely this should be regular government activities, failing that Brexit budget given thats what created the mess.

however…

£14mn to build a siding, on a branch, with no guarentee of extra service and is probably as near max demand as its ever going to get… I wonder which contractor won that one, and how much the actual work is, vs the consultants. I noticed the absence of that over used cliche “This will create x number of jobs” in that judgement. I think the only benefit to Belmont will be the temporary increased used of the pub toilets, as no doubt the contractors will even bring their own sandwiches with them, who knows for £14mn they might even bring their own loos.

 

I wonder if its a prelude to Epsom Down to Belmont closing and bringing this into the cauldron that is Overground ?.. that siding literally ends on the county border, why its not simply a siding that run into reinstating an existing platform is beyond me, but then the whole scheme is beyond me too.

Overground would just suck Southerns revenue, Epsom Downs isnt London so they dont care, and Southern for there part dont care about this line anyway, its always the first to axe when theres problems, just as much as Sutton loop is for Thameslink. You have to wonder the long term value of the Caterham branch, Reigate services and commuter stations on the BML beyond South Croydon to Redhill.

I was just thinking Caterham Branch. Use the old Railway as a huge Linear Car Park all the way from Kenley into Purley is it?

(Being a little cynical here...).

I suspect Reigate is too important Politically to lose its service to an 'improved' Redhill.

The changes in commuting stats may well spell the end of many of these places?

It seems an age since I stood on the Footbridge at the BIS sidings Box just East of Redhill and watched Freights!

I shall have to consult my Comprehensive rail map Book to check on these lines. I've forgotten the system map that used to be in my face all those years back.

P

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Because that platform would require lots of money spent on it to bring it up to current standards. As such its cheaper to put in a siding to the south which requires much the same track signalling works but avoids any spending on the station itself. Given this scheme has had to 'bid' for funds against others, keeping the BCR within acceptable ratios is critical to securing Treasury funding.

 

This sort of thing is not new - the loop on the Falmouth branch was only possible because they found a way to avoid bringing the second platform back into use which would have added massively to the cost of the scheme and pushed the BCR beyond what was acceptable.

 

It should also be noted that changes will be required to the Westlock interlocking that covers the area - and as with all computerised interlockings, Siemens charge a hefty fee for such changes - which is why enhancements are best done during resignalling schemes to try and reduce costs.

Fitting a siding and fixing the platform neednt be tied together.

 

£14mm for a siding will require £umpteen mn in the future to reinstate track to the old platform, plus £umpteen mn to remove the siding and £umpteen mn for that platform repairs.

 

only a contractor could come up with a way for doing it at maximum revenue.

 

They could have simply made the old platform into the siding, afterall its not as if its ever going to get used, unless a unit breaks down at Sutton and needs nudging out of the way.

 

it also makes the case for reinstating the platform more compelling in the future, as opposed to even more expensive.

 

Imo it would have been easier just to put a signal either end of the platform. Then youve got one train in section south of Belmont, and one to turn back at Belmont… gives 20 minutes between existing services going to Epsom downs and back, for a driver to change ends, and 29 minutes between exiting / returning to Sutton, to do a return trip to Belmont, a journey of just 1 mile, 2 miles round trip… 3 minutes each way on the current time table.

That said, 15 minute service.. thats madness for a station averaging just 136 return passenger trips a day in 2021/2. I’d love to know how much revenue that ticket machine took in.. I bet most passengers are on a travelcard and just as easily take an S4 bus exactly 2 bus stops ride down the street, or walk to Sutton.

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by adb968008

[robertcwp]

On 19/01/2023 at 18:20, Wheatley said:

As per John's point 3 above, I'm completely unfamiliar with Sutton or Belmont (isn't it somewhere near Alnmouth ? EDIT no that would be Belford - eejit) but it potentially gets the unit out of the way of somewhere busier, or about to / proposed to become busier. 

 

Compare with the recent uplift of services to the similarly bleak and unloved Gainsborough Central - Northern hasn't suddenly discovered an untapped market which Gainsborough Lea Road can't cope with, they've doubled the service between Sheffield and Worksop* and sending the unit to Gainsborough and back stops it cluttering up Worksop waiting for its back working. 

 

*At least they had - not sure if it's still the case. 

The hourly service to Gainsborough Central was very short-lived, being withdrawn with the COVID cuts only a few months after it began. There are a couple of trains a day to Gainsborough Central. Lea Road is very poorly sited for the town, being on the southern edge. Unlike some Great Central 'Central' stations, Gainsborough Central really is pretty central.

[robertcwp]

The hospital site near Belmont station is expanding significantly so better public transport is needed. Hospitals generate lots of journeys by car or public transport.

 

I'm not sure how important the railway is compared to buses. In recent years, the direct bus services between Sutton and Belmont have been reduced as the 164 no longer runs south of Sutton station, leaving only the 80 and 280 along the main road and one or two other routes going round the houses.

 

For me, the question is where the trains will come from. I don't think there are any regular Sutton terminators since the Victoria via Crystal Palace service was withdrawn beyond West Croydon. The Victoria service via Mitcham Junction was halved recently and they all went to Epsom or beyond anyway. If the London Bridge-Epsom via West Croydon service is diverted to Belmont, this will reduce Sutton-Epsom to only two trains per hour. Not so long ago, there were six per hour. There is no longer a direct, main road bus service from Sutton to Epsom.

 

Mention has been made of the ruling party on Sutton Council losing seats at the last election. One ward they lost happens to be the one I live in. One major factor was the way the Council rammed through the Low Traffic Neighbourhood changes, blocking off a key road. They had to reverse virtually all the changes but totally lost credibility in the process. They also rammed through residents' parking in spite of loads of objections although they did cut back their proposals significantly and, to their credit for a change, they clamped down on dangerous parking around the junction at the end of my road. 

 

Sutton is a real mix of a borough. Some parts, such as the south side of Cheam and parts of Carshalton Beeches, are very well off. There is lots of boring suburbia plus some deprived former (or possibly still current) council estates. Public transport is generally not great, with rail and bus services having been cut back significantly. This includes halving the train service at some stations and cutting bus frequencies.  The roads are also mostly pretty poor, especially for East-West journeys. Sutton Town Centre is dying as a shopping and commercial centre. 

[ModRXsouth]

Robertcwp -

You ask “For me, the question is where the trains will come from.” 
Southern’s stock position is already tight, with shortened Class 377 formations following the Class 455 withdrawal plus the south coast Class 313s are also due to be replaced. As I speculated in my earlier post, could the additional Belmont services be coming from extending the London Overground’s Class 378 West Croydon terminators?

Perhaps LO then also take over Waddon and Carshalton Beeches stations and calling services, with the Southern services becoming fast Epsom - Cheam - Sutton - Wallington - West Croydon - Norwood Junction - London Bridge. 

[DY444]

21 hours ago, ModRXsouth said:

Robertcwp -

You ask “For me, the question is where the trains will come from.” 
Southern’s stock position is already tight, with shortened Class 377 formations following the Class 455 withdrawal plus the south coast Class 313s are also due to be replaced. As I speculated in my earlier post, could the additional Belmont services be coming from extending the London Overground’s Class 378 West Croydon terminators?

Perhaps LO then also take over Waddon and Carshalton Beeches stations and calling services, with the Southern services becoming fast Epsom - Cheam - Sutton - Wallington - West Croydon - Norwood Junction - London Bridge. 

 

I'm not sure.  Despite the loss of the 455s and the service reductions, my one man straw poll suggests they still comfortably manage to handle the passenger numbers on most routes most of the time.  AIUI the plan is getting some 377/5s back from SE (eventually!); the two 377/1s have already come back I believe.  In a more sensible world the owners of the 379s would reduce their lease demands and they would go to GN allowing some or all of the GN 387/1s to go to GTR. 

 

The 5 car 710s were built with the intent of releasing 378s from the NLL to add additional services on the ELL.  Potentially those additional services are no longer required given the reduction in commuting so those released 378s *could* be used instead to allow the W.Croydon service to be extended to Belmont.  Certainly turning them round at W.Croydon is not ideal; they used to block the Dn Wallington for several minutes whilst using P4 and the reversing siding and now they block the Up Wallington crossing into P1.  Extending them would certainly make W.Croydon easier to operate.  The flip side is the 3 aspect signals between W.Croydon and Sutton; the resignalling a couple of years ago just replaced this like for like apart from one extra section between Carshalton Beeches and Sutton.  They should have put 4 aspect in whilst they had the chance but they didn't.  Oh and I don't think the affluent residents of Carshalton Beeches will take very kindly to their semi-fast LB service sailing straight through.  

 

However knowing how things work wrt to TfL, the London Borough of Sutton and the present day railway in general, the most likely option is that the Belmont scheme will be built and only be used as a bolthole to put a train away when the service goes to hell in a handcart and Sutton station gets clogged up.  

Edited January 24, 2023 by DY444