Levelling up fund - Belmont station redoubling

[adb968008]

Belmont, one of Londons least used stations is set to get a Double track upgrade.

 

Currently this backwater station, completely built around, with no parking is a 1 platform halt on the Epsom downs branch which works on the “one engine in steam” principle from Sutton to Epsom Downs.

 

The Epsom Downs line is a shocker of a service, anytime Southerns services goes bump, this line gets axed, often for hours at a time.

 

passenger numbers always look light after Sutton,

Belmont has seen better days, and aside of a few locals who dont prefer to walk down to Sutton for much better services no one uses it.

 

Banstead station is 2 miles from the town of its name, and is located in quite a scary location after dark.

 

Finally Epsom downs, once home of Pullman services, private trains, royal trains of several countries and a 7 platform station, is today a 1 platform halt serving the hundred or so houses built on the land the old station used to occupy. It is dwarfed by Tattenham Corner, which is closer to everything.

 

Not sure if double track means two platforms, or just a signal to protect the rest of the branch, and a reverse onto a double back to Sutton.

The funding covers step free access (it already is as its at street level, both abandoned and current platforms).

The station is about 1 mile from Sutton, and about 1/2 mile of that is double already.

 

Anyways £14mn being sunk here…

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by adb968008

[jonhall]

 

 

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/bid-submitted-to-upgrade-rail-link-in-sutton-45052/ gives a little background.

 

I think there are several things combining here to make the case.

 

1) single track gives little recovery time for service perturbations - once a service is late arriving on the branch, its almost certainly going to return to 'the mainline' late - therefore abandoning a service is often seen as easier than importing a delay onto a much busier trunk route. 

 

2) there are lots of people who will need to get to the Royal Marsden outstation there from all over Southern London (I've taken my Mum there a couple of times in the last 3 years)  and making that easier and more reliable isn't a bad thing.

 

3) Having somewhere with the capacity to start or turn-back trains is useful in increasing the frequency of urban/suburban trains closer into London, so you can increase the density of trains run, but don't 'clutter up' Sutton's Platforms whilst crews change ends, the train can continue to Epsom to do a reversal in a quieter location.

 

I live near the Hampton Court branch, which for many years we a conventional two track brank served from a flyover, which meant trains could only access it from the down slow, and return to Surbiton on the up slow, a couple of decades ago now a link was added to allow trains to use the down line into a newly-reversable platform 4 at Surbiton, the locals being very up in arms about this, fearing that it would result in a loss of direct trains to London, but it actually allows in times of perturbation, for a train to be sent down to the branch and shuttle to and fro, which probably reduces the number of occasions when the service is removed altogether. 

 

jon

['CHARD]

How many Belmonts have there been? 

 

I instantly thought of the one in Middlesex, closed in 1964, then mistakenly invented a disused station on the West Pennine moors - nearest stations Turton & Edgworth (now closed on the open Bolton - Blackburn line) or Withnell (actually at Abbey Village on the closed Chorley - Cherry Tree, Blackburn line).

 

Nurse, time for my medicine and draw the curtains, please.

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Belmont, one of Londons least used stations is set to get a Double track upgrade.

 

Currently this backwater station, completely built around, with no parking is a 1 platform halt on the Epsom downs branch which works on the “one engine in steam” principle from Sutton to Epsom Downs.

 

The Epsom Downs line is a shocker of a service, anytime Southerns services goes bump, this line gets axed, often for hours at a time.

 

passenger numbers always look light after Sutton,

Belmont has seen better days, and aside of a few locals who dont prefer to walk down to Sutton for much better services no one uses it.

 

Banstead station is 2 miles from the town of its name, and is located in quite a scary location after dark.

 

Finally Epsom downs, once home of Pullman services, private trains, royal trains of several countries and a 7 platform station, is today a 1 platform halt serving the hundred or so houses built on the land the old station used to occupy. It is dwarfed by Tattenham Corner, which is closer to everything.

 

Not sure if double track means two platforms, or just a signal to protect the rest of the branch, and a reverse onto a double back to Sutton.

The funding covers step free access (it already is as its at street level, both abandoned and current platforms).

The station is about 1 mile from Sutton, and about 1/2 mile of that is double already.

 

Anyways £14mn being sunk here…

 

Is this really Levelling Up dosh adb? If so that seems weird to me. I know that parts of Surrey are not as one would imagine and I don't know what the demographic of the Belmont area is these days but, hell's teeth this i the amount our whole district  of about  100 thousand folk has just received in an ex Pit area.

Levelling up my ar$£.

P

[ModRXsouth]

The “redoubling” does not mean that this £14m is returning double track to Belmont station itself. A summary of the Council’s successful Levelling Up Fund bid is available online at https://drive.google.com/file/d/19vFfDFGBDz0BWO5pHg0OOxhjdQE41OUB/view

Sutton Council’s successful bid will only provide a new turnback siding on the Network Rail former trackbed south of the station bridge. The intention is to assist access to and growth of the nearby London Cancer Hub as well as improve train services for the locality, by doubling the current frequency of trains from two to four per hour.

 

If this proves popular, it might lead to demand for six trains per hour. Sutton Council could apply again for further funding to reinstate the missing second track south from the existing Ventnor Road Junction, and then past the station’s restored second platform and connecting to the turnback siding. 

 

Perhaps a more pertinent question about the extra services is who will run them? This is a Southern line serving Epsom Downs via Sutton to London Victoria. However, is there not an ambition/intention from the Mayor of London to expand the London Overground network? Would the new services of four per hour comprise the two existing Southern trains serving the full branch from Epsom Downs, Banstead, Belmont, Sutton and onwards to London Victoria, with the other two services seeing the Overground’s West Croydon terminators instead extended to turnback from Belmont? An interesting rolling stock mix of fully seated Southern Class 377 and the sparsely seated Overground Class 378.   
 

Edited January 19, 2023 by ModRXsouth
Clarify wording

[Wickham Green too]

20 minutes ago, ModRXsouth said:

... sparsely seated Overground Class 378.   

Interesting terminology for longitudinal benches ! 😮

[woodenhead]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Finally Epsom downs, once home of Pullman services, private trains, royal trains of several countries and a 7 platform station, is today a 1 platform halt serving the hundred or so houses built on the land the old station used to occupy. It is dwarfed by Tattenham Corner, which is closer to everything.

 

 

Immediatley heads to Old maps by the NLS to look at this - blimey what a big station compared to now.

[DY444]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Is this really Levelling Up dosh adb? If so that seems weird to me. I know that parts of Surrey are not as one would imagine and I don't know what the demographic of the Belmont area is these days but, hell's teeth this i the amount our whole district  of about  100 thousand folk has just received in an ex Pit area.

Levelling up my ar$£.

P

 

It's not Surrey unless you are Royal Mail, it's part of the London Borough of Sutton.  The borough which "enjoys" amongst the worst, if not the worst, public transport in London and for all practical intents and purposes doesn't exist as far as TfL is concerned.  The last notable improvement was Thameslink 35 years ago this May.  Everything proposed since has bitten the dust for one reason or another (Tramlink extension,  Overground extension, Crossrail 2 and the increase in Thameslink frequency). 

 

The council has been, let's say, complacent about transport for donkey's years but has been stung into action by doing the impossible - losing seats to the opposition tories in the prevailing climate at the last local election (and the one before that too).  Hence the very public show of dissent by the council against the ULEZ expansion and the application for levelling up funding for the modest improvements at Belmont.  Political concerns aside, the Marsden is definitely the other key reason behind this.  

[melmoth]

2 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

How many Belmonts have there been? 

 

I instantly thought of the one in Middlesex, closed in 1964, then mistakenly invented a disused station on the West Pennine moors - nearest stations Turton & Edgworth (now closed on the open Bolton - Blackburn line) or Withnell (actually at Abbey Village on the closed Chorley - Cherry Tree, Blackburn line).

 

Nurse, time for my medicine and draw the curtains, please.

 

Withnell is close to Marwood, and related to Uncle Monty

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Is this really Levelling Up dosh adb? If so that seems weird to me. I know that parts of Surrey are not as one would imagine and I don't know what the demographic of the Belmont area is these days but, hell's teeth this i the amount our whole district  of about  100 thousand folk has just received in an ex Pit area.

Levelling up my ar$£.

P

Yep its in the levelling up funds xls, link on this page.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/landmark-levelling-up-fund-to-spark-transformational-change-across-the-uk
 

£14mn, tbh I was expecting this branch to be closed.

The whole route is unstaffed, doo.

 

Suttons two “Downs” platforms are used for turning back when services are late.

A further unit can be turned back on the branch, which is signalled at Banstead, “trapping” a unit at Epsom Downs if need be already. (the signal is at Downs station).

 

I’m not sure the value of a turnback siding (as that means a point and splitting off the branch)… Whilst I think the whole thing is a waste of time, it might just made more sense to put a signal either end of the existing platform, so one unit can trundle up the branch, whilst a second, following, terminated short here.

 

 

 

[adb968008]

18 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

It's not Surrey unless you are Royal Mail, it's part of the London Borough of Sutton.  The borough which "enjoys" amongst the worst, if not the worst, public transport in London and for all practical intents and purposes doesn't exist as far as TfL is concerned.  The last notable improvement was Thameslink 35 years ago this May.  Everything proposed since has bitten the dust for one reason or another (Tramlink extension,  Overground extension, Crossrail 2 and the increase in Thameslink frequency). 

 

The council has been, let's say, complacent about transport for donkey's years but has been stung into action by doing the impossible - losing seats to the opposition tories in the prevailing climate at the last local election (and the one before that too).  Hence the very public show of dissent by the council against the ULEZ expansion and the application for levelling up funding for the modest improvements at Belmont.  Political concerns aside, the Marsden is definitely the other key reason behind this.  

Yes theres been some stuff recently suggesting Sutton exits London, a kind of SutExit.

 

ULEZ is deeply troubling a lot of people, as transport is so poor, and Suttons not exactly the wealthiest london borough.  There is a higher proportion of older cars on the road as a result, and people are not able to afford to upgrade, but equally dont have public transport at the rest of Londons levels either. Further compounded by proposed rail and bus cut backs and yet a London Government proposed tax hike.

 

200% convinced these seats will change next election.

 

Coming back to Marsden, world class hospital, and world class research, but i’m not sure theres enough daily patronage to support the current service, let alone doubling it… remember the station already exists… and its the second least used station in London…, how does adding a siding change that ?

 

Given southern cuts this service in every incident, as its the least impacted line, its more likely the forthcoming cuts will reduce this line, not increase it… Belmonts a 10 min walk down a straight road from Sutton, Royal Marsden is served by buses that goes direct into the hospital from Sutton station.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

Heres a few pictures of the branch, I made several videos of the 455’s on here last year and have several times gone to watch NRTT or RHTT at the dead of night along this line (not for the faint hearted much of this branch is very rural)… but it is steeply graded… 37’s sound great all the way up it !

 

Belmont station, looking towards Sutton.

 

if the siding is south of the station, then I guess its here..

looking south beyond Belmont

 

 

Banstead station looking towards Sutton

Banstead looking towards Epsom Downs

 

Epsom Downs station.

 

 

Theres a good history of this line..

 

Belmont was originally opened as a station called “California” after the pub across the road. It was soon renamed as parcels for “California” in the US were arriving here, rather than Southampton Docks.

 

Belmont used to have a goods yard, now a council road plant yard. Both platforms exist, both at street level. However the “Down” platform today is only in use, and on a side street surrounded by flats.

As mentioned, as many as 17 trains at once could be along this branch in victorian times.

Edited January 19, 2023 by adb968008

[APOLLO]

2 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Is this really Levelling Up dosh adb? If so that seems weird to me. I know that parts of Surrey are not as one would imagine and I don't know what the demographic of the Belmont area is these days but, hell's teeth this i the amount our whole district  of about  100 thousand folk has just received in an ex Pit area.

Levelling up my ar$£.

P

 

ex Pit area ? - You might get a few planks from Rishys "Leveling up" fund !!

 

 

Brit15

Edited January 19, 2023 by APOLLO

[Wheatley]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

how does adding a siding change that ?

As per John's point 3 above, I'm completely unfamiliar with Sutton or Belmont (isn't it somewhere near Alnmouth ? EDIT no that would be Belford - eejit) but it potentially gets the unit out of the way of somewhere busier, or about to / proposed to become busier. 

 

Compare with the recent uplift of services to the similarly bleak and unloved Gainsborough Central - Northern hasn't suddenly discovered an untapped market which Gainsborough Lea Road can't cope with, they've doubled the service between Sheffield and Worksop* and sending the unit to Gainsborough and back stops it cluttering up Worksop waiting for its back working. 

 

*At least they had - not sure if it's still the case. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Wheatley

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

As per John's point 3 above, I'm completely unfamiliar with Sutton or Belmont (isn't it somewhere near Alnmouth ?) but it potentially gets the unit out of the way of somewhere busier, or about to / proposed to become busier. 

 

Compare with the recent uplift of services to the similarly bleak and unloved Gainsborough Central - Northern hasn't suddenly discovered an untapped market which Gainsborough Lea Road can't cope with, they've doubled the service between Sheffield and Worksop* and sending the unit to Gainsborough and back stops it cluttering up Worksop waiting for its back working. 

 

*At least they had - not sure if it's still the case. 

As the old UP platform is still in situe, a siding into this platform may make more sense… if demand for a 10 minute walk up hill to the hospital would be that great, in preference to a direct bus into the hospital grounds. It would allow infinite platform dwell time to.

 

A station without parking, on a line with poor patronage, for 10k populace living within 5 minutes drive of 7 stations.

 

£14mn for a siding… wow.

 

Everything you want to know here

http://www.wymann.info/EpsomDowns/index.html

Edited January 19, 2023 by adb968008

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Finally Epsom downs, once home of Pullman services, private trains, royal trains of several countries and a 7 platform station

It started off with 9 and there were centre run round loops for 4 of them.

Tattenham Corner probably siphoned off a fair bit of race traffic.

[TJ52]

Perhaps it shouldn't have been singled in the first place. False economy?

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, ModRXsouth said:

 

 

Perhaps a more pertinent question about the extra services is who will run them? This is a Southern line serving Epsom Downs via Sutton to London Victoria. However, is there not an ambition/intention from the Mayor of London to expand the London Overground network? Would the new services of four per hour comprise the two existing Southern trains serving the full branch from Epsom Downs, Banstead, Belmont, Sutton and onwards to London Victoria, with the other two services seeing the Overground’s West Croydon terminators instead extended to turnback from Belmont? An interesting rolling stock mix of fully seated Southern Class 377 and the sparsely seated Overground Class 378.   
 

You might be on the money there.

 

a quick look at the map, sees the siding go right up on the very boundary of London.

An extension of Overground to Sutton would appeal to many, but lack of space to turn around would be an issue. Having a siding using Belmont as an excuse gets around that. I suppose a land grab of the Wallington lines stations will follow, and the Epsom fasts to London Bridge will become history.

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, TJ52 said:

Perhaps it shouldn't have been singled in the first place. False economy?

Pretty much true of most singling schemes of the past. 

[adb968008]

23 minutes ago, TJ52 said:

Perhaps it shouldn't have been singled in the first place. False economy?

A branch that struggles to carry 300k passengers a year…, before covid, thats c850 a day, or c425 round trips.

 

Currently supported by an 8 car 377 with 17 hours a day service, every 30 minutes, puts an average of 25 passengers per train, or 3 passengers per carriage.

 

Epsom Downs is within walking distance of Tattenham corner.

 

Banstead is 5 mins from Ewell East (with parking), Banstead itself is in the middle of nowhere, its a drop off by car spot as theres minimal settlement around it.

 

Belmont is 2 minutes drive, 5 minutes bus, or 10 min walk of Sutton.

 

The hospital has been there decades, as has the village.

 

How much electric does an 8 car 377 consume on an 8 mile run ?

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

A branch that struggles to carry 300k passengers a year…, before covid.

 

thats c850 a day, or 425 round trips.

 

Currently supported by an 8 car 377 with 17 hours a day service, every 30 minutes, puts an average of 25 passengers per train, or 3 passengers per carriage.

 

 

 

 

In most parts of the country, such a branch (if it still existed at all) would be lucky to see a quarter of that service provision.

 

[adb968008]

27 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

In most parts of the country, such a branch (if it still existed at all) would be lucky to see a quarter of that service provision.

 

Certainly compares interestingly to the Blackpool South line which carries over half a million, yet has an hourly service, with a 2 car DMU and hasnt the same level of nearby alternative stations and passengers dont benefit of a London fare cap on spend…

 

something like 500k between 17 trains a day,  c1400 or 700 round trips, 80 passengers per train, or 40 per carriage…

 

£14mn would go much further on this line than a siding on the other.

Edited January 19, 2023 by adb968008

[Mallard60022]

I used to live in Ewell, near Ewell West. My house I sold in 1992 for about 87K is now TEN times that. I did go to Sutton area few times whilst travelling to the Smoke and whilst being a Driving Instructor for a couple of years, but grief! My now wife went to the 'Private' Sutton High School for Gals in the 60s. I had no idea what it was and is like but this scheme sees really silly in so many ways when the alternative services are there for ALL TO SEE.

That pic of the Wooden Props isn't that far off what Worksop looks like in Parts!

Thanks for all the info. Still think levelling up...my ar$£; let them eat Cake sort of Hunger Games sort of ....I'll stop now!

Phil

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

I used to live in Ewell, near Ewell West. My house I sold in 1992 for about 87K is now TEN times that. I did go to Sutton area few times whilst travelling to the Smoke and whilst being a Driving Instructor for a couple of years, but grief! My now wife went to the 'Private' Sutton High School for Gals in the 60s. I had no idea what it was and is like but this scheme sees really silly in so many ways when the alternative services are there for ALL TO SEE.

That pic of the Wooden Props isn't that far off what Worksop looks like in Parts!

Thanks for all the info. Still think levelling up...my ar$£; let them eat Cake sort of Hunger Games sort of ....I'll stop now!

Phil

Hi Phil,

 

You aren't the first to draw the Hunger Games analogy in relation to the Levelling Up bidding process.

 

It seems the word "need" may be understood rather differently in Greater London than elsewhere....

 

John 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Hi Phil,

 

You aren't the first to draw the Hunger Games analogy in relation to the Levelling Up bidding process.

 

It seems the word "need" may be understood rather differently in Greater London than elsewhere....

 

John 

Yet on the LSWR thread, some posters were getting near threats of personal violence for dare suggesting cutbacks there.

 

Southern /East Surrey might be a lot wealthier than the north, but West/South Surrey is positively  very well off… posters angrily waving abuse for dare suggesting cutting back 10-12 coach trains every few minutes and the hardship of changing at Basingstoke might benefit from going to Manchester Piccadilly plat 13/14 on a Monday morning… when a 2 car 175 arrives with its windows ready to burst out, not knowing if its either by train capacity or rust that’ll blow it.

Theres a big void between north and south on railways, and that chasm is harder to cover up post covid, brexit. 

Levelling up, imo is about levelling down, theres no new money in this, its moving where its spent, imo things are on the up, up north because it really is, theres abuzz up there. But down south its a malaise thats dragging the south downwards towards the level the north was at, so its just moving money, not new money.

But if the south is in a long term depression, then money does need to move and service levels do need to reflect that.

looking at the list, Eden Project for Morecambe strikes me as a fantastic idea. But why is improving the port at Dover a project for “levelling up”…surely this should be regular government activities, failing that Brexit budget given thats what created the mess.

however…

£14mn to build a siding, on a branch, with no guarentee of extra service and is probably as near max demand as its ever going to get… I wonder which contractor won that one, and how much the actual work is, vs the consultants. I noticed the absence of that over used cliche “This will create x number of jobs” in that judgement. I think the only benefit to Belmont will be the temporary increased used of the pub toilets, as no doubt the contractors will even bring their own sandwiches with them, who knows for £14mn they might even bring their own loos.

 

I wonder if its a prelude to Epsom Down to Belmont closing and bringing this into the cauldron that is Overground ?.. that siding literally ends on the county border, why its not simply a siding that run into reinstating an existing platform is beyond me, but then the whole scheme is beyond me too.

Overground would just suck Southerns revenue, Epsom Downs isnt London so they dont care, and Southern for there part dont care about this line anyway, its always the first to axe when theres problems, just as much as Sutton loop is for Thameslink. You have to wonder the long term value of the Caterham branch, Reigate services and commuter stations on the BML beyond South Croydon to Redhill.

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by adb968008