Why Did Triang Choose the L1?

[johnofwessex]

Presumably unlike the 2P, a half way decent front end?

[andyman7]

On 22/01/2023 at 00:08, The Johnster said:

 

I think you might be confusing Hornby, the Meccano owned company that made the 0 gauge tinplate stuff (including an L1) and then Hornby Dublo, with Triang, who produced the 00 L1 under discussion in this thread.  Triang were the company that is now called Hornby, which acquired the rights to the Hornby name when Meccano collapsed, initially as Triang Hornby and then as Hornby as we now know them, so the confusion is understandable, but when the 00 L1 was produced they had no connection whatsoever to the Meccano empire, in fact they were in direct competition with it, and I doubt very much that the 00 L1 was in any way an update of the pre-war 0 gauge tinplate L1. 

 

 

I'm a bit of a pedant with this stuff, because of interest and also because everything that happened is fully documented; so to be accurate, Meccano did not collapse; it was bought outright as a functioning although financially distressed company by Lines Brothers in 1964. After due analysis of the assets within the group the decision was made to relaunch the combined range as Triang Hornby from May 1965 although the range was fundamentally the Triang one with just a few Dublo elements. 

 

On 22/01/2023 at 14:22, RJS1977 said:

Triang didn't just buy the rights to the Hornby name, they also bought the Hornby Dublo tooling, though most of it was sold on to G&R Wrenn in fairly short order.  However I believe some HD items did make it into the combined range for a while, though fitted with Triang mechanisms rather than HD.

 

In 1972, Triang itself got into financial difficulties, and the railway range (and Scalextric) was sold to Dunbee-Combex-Marx. This was the point at which Triang-Hornby became Hornby as DCM had no agreement to use the Triang name. Of course Hornby has had  numerous more changes of ownership and management since then. 

 

On 22/01/2023 at 15:58, JohnR said:

Technically, it wasn't sold to Wrenn. 18 months after acquiring Hornby, Triang also took over G&R Wrenn, and the new subsidiary were given the old Hornby tools. As a result of the difficulties that Lines Brothers got into, G&R Wrenn bought themselves out of receivership, taking the tools with them. 

 

As purchasers of the entirely of Meccano Ltd, Lines Brothers did indeed acquire everything, tooling, factories, trademarks etc. However, it was George Wrenn who specifically asked to make use of the old Dublo tooling. 

 

Lines Brothers went into administration in 1971; it was a big group so contained both profitable and unprofitable elements. The breakup of the group by the Administrators was designed to maximise returns and it is at this point that things truly get mixed up if you are a purist. Triang Pedigree (including the Canterbury plant) went one way with the Triang name; Meccano, along with the Dinky Toys name and the Liverpool Binns Road factory were sold to Airfix Ltd; whilst Dunbee-Combex-Marx purchased Rovex Ltd, the company that owned both the Scalextric and Triang tools and the Margate factory, as well as the Hornby trademark; whilst as noted above, G & R Wrenn were able to buy themselves out along with the Dublo machinery and tooling with the exception of the plastic station parts and the E3001.

 

There are a few areas where Triang and Dublo tooling did cross the ranges. The Triang Hornby Coronation of 1970 used the Dublo City of London tender base, and these were supplied to Rovex by Wrenn. In the other direction, the Wrenn (ex-Dublo) A4 used the Triang Hornby A3 tender, and Rovex (later Hornby Hobbies) continued to supply this component to Wrenn right up to 1992. Finally, the System 6 'finescale' trackage system introduced in 1970 was an amalgam of Triang geometry with the rail profile of the Dublo 2 rail track.  

[Nearholmer]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Also, I have some sort of memory of seeing a photo of one in a wartime grey livery which I associated with WW1 for some reason.

Possibly a D1 or E1 in the horrible SECR battleship grey livery. The three classes are hard to tell apart (well, I find it hard).

[Nearholmer]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Also, I have some sort of memory of seeing a photo of one in a wartime grey livery which I associated with WW1 for some reason.

Possibly a D1 or E1 in the horrible SECR battleship grey livery. The three classes are hard to tell apart at first glance (well, I find it hard), or an L1 in photographic grey.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Forester]

Fascinating thread. Thanks to all contributors.

May I now unashamedly highjack it to request someone actually produce a new L1 to modern standards as we SR Eastern people really need one.

Apologies - and back to Triang...

[Nearholmer]

Someone is releasing a D1 in 00, and that is so similar that it probably squashes the chance of a r-t-r L1 for the foreseeable.

 

As a fan of retro-style 0, I’m waiting eagerly for Ace Trains to release their promised near-replica of the Hornby one. Among the liveries they are commissioning is the Triang green one, which as far as I know was fictional, but great for nostalgia.

[whart57]

On 23/01/2023 at 15:27, The Johnster said:

 

Er, oops, yes, so they were, my bad!  Maunsell's tenure at Ashford and the L class that these were developed from led me away from the path of righteousness...  Also, I have some sort of memory of seeing a photo of one in a wartime grey livery which I associated with WW1 for some reason.

 

 

The wartime grey was a WW1 livery, but as E1s and D1s look very similar to the L1 one of those may be what has lodged in your brain

[The Johnster]

That would explain my confusion, and it is only right to point out that explaining my confusion can sometimes be quite an achievement! 

 

Little story; yesterday evening I was coming out of the bathroom, which has two lights, the ceiling light fitting which works off a pullstring that also sets the ventilation fan off for about 15 minutes, and an led strip above my shaving mirror.  If I am only using the room for a brief visit and no unpleasant odours ensue, to save the noise of the fan and economise on the leccy, I use the mirror leds, which is what I did yesterday.  As I was emerging from the room, The Squeeze helpfully pointed out that I hadn't turned the light off, so I instinctively pulled the string, which of course turned the ceiling light and the fan on.  Now, I don't want the ceiling light and the noisy fan on, so my already shredded brain processed this as my not having pulled the string properly as the light hadn't gone off.  Yes, I know, but this is my already shredded brain, which is about to become even more shredded.

 

So I pulled the string again and the ceiling light went off, but the light was still on because I'd forgotten to turn the led strip off.  Cue a sequence of an increasingly baffled and panic-stricken Johnster pulling on the string, the ceiling light going on and off, and The Squeeze asking me what I was doing, which I couldn't answer properly because I didn't know what I was doing.  After about 5 seconds, which seemed more like 5 minutes, the light came on (in my head), and my fuddled mind finally got a grip on the situation, while The Squeeze laughed at me, the unsympathetic cow...

 

How I manage the sequence of actions required to run a model railway according to the 1955 Rule Book is a source of constant amazement to me!

[Nearholmer]

You and me both!

[The Johnster]

(looks around confusedly) Who said that?

[Gilwell Park]

The L1 has always been my favourite Triang loco, it was the first one with all wheels flanged. Fairly soon I converted it  to a LMS 2p as I was in my S&D phase. My first conversion of an expensive loco instead of Kitmaster conversions. Some time later when Hornby introduced the B12 I began a GE section branch line & used the L1 chassis as as base for a D16 using a cut about B12 body. When Hornby introduced their D16 the original conversion was withdrawn & stored in the junk=might be useful one day box. In the meantime I acquired another L1 & repainted it into BR lined black, because I liked it. I have always enjoyed producing unusual locos by conversions but lately they have become so expensive that I don't like cutting them about so I extracted the old 2P chassis & with the aid of a battered L1 body from Ebay produced an inside cylinder GW 4-4-0  with a mainline 2251 cab & 43xx boiler. During lockdown I restored my 2P with another L1 chassis from Ebay, no motor. I now have 3 locos on the L1 chassis. An L1, a 2P & a GW 4-4-0. A very useful loco. Any ideas for further conversions?

[The Johnster]

Duke or Dukedog out of L1 and Dean Goods?  Billington?  M&SWJ with 2251 boiler?

[Gilwell Park]

This is my i/c 4-4-0. Named Exmoor.  My justification is that the GW actually rebuilt all the Dukes with Bulldog frames. Then realised that the curved frames of the early Bulldogs were just as bad as the Dukes. This left them with insufficient Blue route locos so a limited number of new 4-4-0 were built around the same time as the 2251 0-6-0.

[33C]

I have used the Triang L1, chassis, body or both, for a few conversions. Dunalastair IV, Tilbury tank, SECR L class and, more recently, the GCR "Director", (GBLC body). Also shown, a since sold, NBR, J class, "Scott" 4-4-0. 

[33C]

 A "Schools" class V, from Airfix, using the kit valve gear, (it works fine!), mounted on the L1 chassis. Triang certainly played a blinder picking this chassis. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by 33C
add letter

[PeterStiles]

8 hours ago, 33C said:

using the kit valve gear, (it works fine!),

I'm still waiting for the Next Time I Build This so that maybe, one day, I'll make the valve gear work...

[The Johnster]

Use pencil graphite as lubricant for the valve gear, it'll run ok, but I don't reccommend high speeds which could melt the plastic.  Perhaps stink bombs like on Gresley 3-cylinder engines as a warning system...  I used Airfix kit Schools bits on an S15 kitbash with a Rovex Black Princess chassis, including the Airfix Walchaert's, one of my teenage cut'n'shuts, not a modelling period I am proud of but I learned a lot from it.

[33C]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Use pencil graphite as lubricant for the valve gear, it'll run ok, but I don't reccommend high speeds which could melt the plastic.  Perhaps stink bombs like on Gresley 3-cylinder engines as a warning system...  I used Airfix kit Schools bits on an S15 kitbash with a Rovex Black Princess chassis, including the Airfix Walchaert's, one of my teenage cut'n'shuts, not a modelling period I am proud of but I learned a lot from it.

Yes, Princess/Schools bash to S15 has got to be done! Same as 9f body on Princess chassis = Britannia!

[Steamport Southport]

Couldn't you use the valve gear from the older Hornby Schools model?

 

The LNER D49 used the same valve gear. Might be a longer term solution than the plastic parts.

 

 

Jason

[33C]

47 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Couldn't you use the valve gear from the older Hornby Schools model?

 

The LNER D49 used the same valve gear. Might be a longer term solution than the plastic parts.

 

 

Jason

What! Spend money! I could've, but i use wot i got. It shuffles around the oval, once in a blue moon, and was done just to see if it could be done, and it hasn't fallen apart....yet...if it does, i got plenty more.

[The Johnster]

That’s the way I’d be doing it if I were doing it now, but my cut’n’shuts were nearly 60 years ago. 
 

Other crimes against modelling from that era:-

 

61xx, Airfix kit, Rovex BP chassis

56xx, Airfix 61xx kit, Triang Jinty chassis

43xx, Airfix CoT & 61xx kits, BP chassis

42xx, Airfix 61xx and HD Stanier 8F chassis converted from 3-rail

Stanier Jubilee, cut down BP inspired by MRC article about a similar conversion to Black 5

Airfix kit BR std.4MT mogul, Airfix kit, Triang TC prairie chassis

Airfix kit Biggin Hill with Triang Winston Churchill chassis.

Attempted Airfix CoT with Romford wheels and Nellie chassis

Airfix kit Evening Star with tender drive from HD Deltic power bogie converted from 3-rail

 

Some of these abominations ran reasonably well, but the BR mogul kept breaking it’s motion and CoT never really got off the ground because of my failure to fix the extended cranks to the ends of the axles, no superglue in those days and I couldn’t hack it with Araldite, and Evening Star, actually built as 92202 because you could cut’n’shut the number transfers, only ran tender first, the motion seizing f I tried to run it forwards.  The 42xx sat even higher off the rails than the normal Triang models of the day, and the 56xx derailed on facing points running bunker first.  I also attempted to battery-power Airfix kit 08 and J94 with toy boat motors and elastic band drive, and forward/off/reverse switches with an eye to experimenting with r/c (had a chum whose dad was into r/c boats), an abject failure!

As I say, it taught me a lot, mostly not to ever involve myself with such nonsense ever again…  Which brings me to my current half finished Collett 1938 31xx large prairie; Bachmann Ivatt 4MT mogul, Airfix RTR 61xx running plate, buffer beams, and motion, Mainline 43xx bodyshell, and Mainline 56xx cab and bunker.  Cylinders/slidebars undecided yet but probably Hornby.  It’ll never be more than a rather poor lYout model, but how are you going to build yours?  Some of us never learn…