Southern Region Operations

[MarshLane]

Afternoon all,

I am testing the water with this topic in some ways.  I am considering putting together a Southern Region-based layout - somewhat of a fictional location but based between Basingstoke and Eastleigh somewhere.  The idea being its 1980s period, with main line traffic, and a non-electrified double-track branch that follows a Weymouth style operation, in that a 4TC is detached from a London-Southampton working, and a 33 (or maybe the occasional 73)  attaches for the onward working down the branch, and the same on the return. The London end of the layout would then be a four track scenario through the countryside.  The aim being to run decent length trains in prototypical formations.

 

Now, the problem I have is my Southern knowledge is fairly minimal, and while I have done a trawl of the various books I have got and through Flickr, I am after some help to identify possible Southern operations.  In OO for example, there are (or have been) Parcels MLVs, 2EPBs, 2HAP, 4BEP, 4CEP, 4VEP and 4TC models produced, but were these generally limited to certain runs or the South East region/South Western region?  Ie which would have worked through the area in question?  I think it might be possible to recreate a 4REP as well - but which was the closest unit in terms of body shell?  Were 'Thumpers' also used in the area on non-electrified lines?

 

Can anyone identify how parcels traffic operated? My period would be 1985-1987 - just late enough to get NSE livery on the odd unit, but early enough to keep loco-hauled passenger services.  There would have been cross-country and local services as well.  

 

Freight wise, intermodal from Southampton heading north, I think the Yeoman 59s would have put in an appearance, hopefully with the big O&K hoppers that have recently been produced, oils to Fawley, civil engineers workings.

 

Any pointers on where to look, answers to any of the questions or general info on workings for the area would be welcomed.  The project, may not reach fruition, I am just looking at options for variety in operating etc.., so anything is welcome.

 

Rich

[Phatbob]

Have a mooch around these two websites to start your education into all things Southern;

 

https://sremg.org.uk/home.shtml

 

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/#Railways

 

 

[Wellyboots]

For the period you're interested in the passenger services would be;

 

Fast trains, Waterloo - Weymouth, 4-REP with 1or 2 4-TC, the TCs would then be taken from Bournemouth to Weymouth by Class 33/1.

Semi-Fast trains,  Waterloo - Bournemouth, 4-REP with 1or 2 4-TC.

Slow trains,  Waterloo - Basingstoke/Southampton/Bournemouth, 4-VEP and 2-HAP (HAPs would minimum of 2 sets and possibly only as far as Basingstoke)

In the late 80's the 4-REPs were withdrawn and replaced with 2x Class 73/1 until the 5-WES units came into service.

 

DEMUs were used on Basingstoke - Reading, Portsmouth - Salisbury via Southampton, and Eastleigh to Fareham services.

 

Loco hauled services were;

 

Waterloo - Salisbury, Class 33/1 with 4-TCs

Waterloo - Exeter, Class 50 (sometimes class 33)

Inter-City Cross Country services from Bournemouth, Class 47

There was during that time period a mid-morning Waterloo - Bournemouth Class 73 hauled train and I seem to remember an early evening slow Waterloo - Basingstoke/Salisbury formed 4-TC, 33/1, 4-VEP, the VEP being detached at Basingstoke.

 

As for freight, as you mentioned there's the container traffic from Southampton, the stone traffic to Botley and Totton (Eling Wharf) supplied by Yeoman and ARC which would be in the hands of Class 56 before the arrival of the Class 59, and Fawley Petroleum products including Bitumen  and Propane. Other traffic would include military traffic to Marchwood and Andover, UKF fertilizer to Andover, vehicles from Ford's Transit Van factory, and Speedlink services handling, amongst other things, household coal and steel.      

 

[MarshLane]

Wellyboots,

Thanks for taking the time with the detailed overview.

 

Am I correct in thinking therefore that EPB, BEP and CEP units wouldn’t have been seen on the South Western that far south (if at all?)

 

29 minutes ago, Wellyboots said:

 

Slow trains,  Waterloo - Basingstoke/Southampton/Bournemouth, 4-VEP and 2-HAP (HAPs would minimum of 2 sets and possibly only as far as Basingstoke)

In the late 80's the 4-REPs were withdrawn and replaced with 2x Class 73/1 until the 5-WES units came into service.

 

Interesting - were the 4REPs replaced by other vehicles in the train then (ie 3x4TC) or was it downgraded from 12 to 8-car formation when the 73s came into use? Do you recall if they were double-headed/double-propelling, or ‘top and tail’ formation?

 

I’ll do some research on when the 4REPs went as the double 73s could provide some formation variety.

 

35 minutes ago, Wellyboots said:

As for freight, as you mentioned there's the container traffic from Southampton, the stone traffic to Botley and Totton (Eling Wharf) supplied by Yeoman and ARC which would be in the hands of Class 56 before the arrival of the Class 59, and Fawley Petroleum products including Bitumen  and Propane. Other traffic would include military traffic to Marchwood and Andover, UKF fertilizer to Andover, vehicles from Ford's Transit Van factory, and Speedlink services handling, amongst other things, household coal and steel.      

Oh I’d forgotten about MoD traffic. I’ll have to try and see if some friends have any WTTs from that period and identify the Speedlink traffic flows. I am guessing Willesden and Severn Tunnel Junction or Bescot were probably the main ones.

 

[Phatbob]

52 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

I’ll do some research on when the 4REPs went as the double 73s could provide some formation variety.

All the interim formations used during the construction period of the 5WES sets are outlined on the Blood & custard website I cited earlier.  https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-3TC-4TC-4REP-Bournemouth-1966.html

[Rivercider]

Although there were quite a number of stone terminals around the Eastleigh area, and elsewhere in the South East  I don't think the Mendip stone traffic would normally be seen on the Eastleigh -Basingstoke line except for diversions.

 

Speedlink wise 6E30 was an Eastleigh to Tees or York or Haverton Hill service over the years. The southbound service 6O49 arrived in the early morning, so photos of that would be pretty rare.

 

A bit earlier than your time frame here is 6E30 16.35 Eastleigh to Tees at Basingstoke behind 47367. Ford Transits as already mentioned were  regular traffic. The white roof VDAs were empties from Eastleigh going back to Rowntrees at York. Empty HEAs had conveyed domestic coal, by around 1987 these would be on a Speedlink Coal Network service. 11/4/83

 

cheers

 

[griffgriff]

Speedlink from Eastleigh would have gone to Severn Tunnel Junction but later to Gloucester when STJ closed.  There was a lot of petroleum traffic from other locations other than Fawley…. South Wales and Ripple Lane (there was a Shell company train that serviced the depot at Mitcheldever). As already mentioned, there were lots of Aggregate flows. In the 80s some still would have been in former short wheel base iron ore wagons. Lots of ballast working too. Steel traffic to the ports was common, although normally along the the Bristol to Southampton line serving Poole. Lots of cement traffic with Blue Circle and other companies serving depots at various locations. Military traffic, as already noted, was common with all 3 services of the armed forces using rail. Matchwood has already been mentioned but traffic also originated from Salisbury Plane and various armament depots around the area belonging to the RAF and Navy. 
 

Plenty to get your teeth into.

 

Griff

Edited January 22, 2023 by griffgriff
Fawley misspelt

[MarshLane]

1 hour ago, Phatbob said:

All the interim formations used during the construction period of the 5WES sets are outlined on the Blood & custard website I cited earlier.  https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-3TC-4TC-4REP-Bournemouth-1966.html

 

Yes, thanks for that. I have had a quick look but not had time to go through it in any depth - not a site I have come across before.  Thanks for the links.

[Sitham Yard]

8 hours ago, MarshLane said:

Afternoon all,

I am testing the water with this topic in some ways.  I am considering putting together a Southern Region-based layout - somewhat of a fictional location but based between Basingstoke and Eastleigh somewhere.  The idea being its 1980s period, with main line traffic, and a non-electrified double-track branch that follows a Weymouth style operation, in that a 4TC is detached from a London-Southampton working, and a 33 (or maybe the occasional 73)  attaches for the onward working down the branch, and the same on the return. The London end of the layout would then be a four track scenario through the countryside.  The aim being to run decent length trains in prototypical formations.

 

Now, the problem I have is my Southern knowledge is fairly minimal, and while I have done a trawl of the various books I have got and through Flickr, I am after some help to identify possible Southern operations.  In OO for example, there are (or have been) Parcels MLVs, 2EPBs, 2HAP, 4BEP, 4CEP, 4VEP and 4TC models produced, but were these generally limited to certain runs or the South East region/South Western region?  Ie which would have worked through the area in question?  I think it might be possible to recreate a 4REP as well - but which was the closest unit in terms of body shell?  Were 'Thumpers' also used in the area on non-electrified lines?

 

Can anyone identify how parcels traffic operated? My period would be 1985-1987 - just late enough to get NSE livery on the odd unit, but early enough to keep loco-hauled passenger services.  There would have been cross-country and local services as well.  

 

Freight wise, intermodal from Southampton heading north, I think the Yeoman 59s would have put in an appearance, hopefully with the big O&K hoppers that have recently been produced, oils to Fawley, civil engineers workings.

 

Any pointers on where to look, answers to any of the questions or general info on workings for the area would be welcomed.  The project, may not reach fruition, I am just looking at options for variety in operating etc.., so anything is welcome.

 

Rich

Search online for "John Dedman books". He comes from Hampshire and models 1980's and has produced a number of books including photos from the Eastleigh area.

Andrew

Edited January 22, 2023 by Sitham Yard

[Rivercider]

9 hours ago, Sitham Yard said:

Search online for "John Dedman books". He comes from Hampshire and models 1980's and has produced a number of books including photos from the Eastleigh area.

Andrew

Good shout!

 

John Dedman has a lots of photos on Flickr. I just searched his collection for 'Speedlink' and 'Willesden' for example, there are a lot of shots taken in your time frame, including 6M93 Eastleigh to Willesden Speedlink, and 6O57 ex Willesden hauled by class 73s.

 

Edit - although I don't have a John Dedman book covering that part of the Southern I do have his /Rail Blue Western Region Book S & SW', and the 'Train Formations' book, both of which are very good with informative captions. 

 

cheers 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Rivercider
tidying up.

[C126]

Eastleigh as a Speedlink Marshalling Yard also fed 'trips' as far east as Hove for coal, dropping off to other sites along the way (Chichester, Portfield, Worthing(?)).

 

[Fat Controller]

Some other traffic:-

steel coil to and from Hamworthy Quay

coal for Dible's Wharf

steel rod and section to Southampton (Northam)

copper ingots to Southampton (Bevois Park)

Ball clay from Furzebrook (carried in OWVs, then in Clay Tigers)

Nuclear flask traffic from Winfrith

Sand from Wool

Ambulances from Fratton; probably the last revenue-earning traffic carried on Lowmacs, lasting into the 1980s.

[Geep7]

Ok, so for modelling a 4-Rep. The outer 2 driving coaches were all-but identical to the 4-TC driving coaches above the underframe (Window layout, seating plan, roof layout etc.). Below though, and both driving coaches were mounted on 2 Mk6 motor bogies (very similar to those under a Class 73) with all the associated underframe equipment of an SR Mk1 style EMU. In between were a TBFK (Trailer Brake First Corridor) and TB (Trailer Buffet).

 

You could modify a Kernow/Bachmann 4-TC into a 4-Rep. Motorising could be the issue, but not impossible. I would perhaps suggest putting the motor in the Buffet car. The driving coaches are sorted, not much you really need to do to that, except add the underframe equipment, and change the bogies (MJT cast sides?). The TFK you can probably do easily by swapping the sides from a standard Bachmann Mk1 BFK. The trailer buffet could be problematic, as Bachmann haven't done an RB in their MK1 range yet, however, you could do a Rep from the second batch built in the 1970's, which used standard Mk1 RU's, and i'm pretty sure Bachmann do one of these.

 

Either that, or you can go down the etched brass sides route, MJT do the sides for the 4-TC, but not the Rep, so you'd need to get a pack of these (if they are available) and then Comet brass sides for the TFK and TB.

 

If i'm honest, it sounds like a lot of work, even for someone who hasn't recently returned to the hobby.

 

As regards the rest of the EMU stock, it was rare, but the odd 2/4Epb did venture west of Basingstoke, generally going to Eastleigh works. 2-Hap's definitely did go west of Basingstoke, usually tacked to the front or back of a 4-Vep. I'm sure there were rare occasions, but I don't think the Bournemouth line saw very many 4-Cep's or 4-Bep's, especially in pre-rebuilt condition.

 

Thumpers were definitely used in this area though, although were the more usual 3H/3D variety. Actually into the 1970's there were only 4 2H sets, and by the 1980's these had been made up to 3-car sets by inserting a surplus 2-Epb Driving Trailer from disbanded Tadpole sets.

 

Once you get into the Network SouthEast era, things get a tad more complicated, and units were moved around between divisions, sets reduced in length (i.e most of the DEMU fleet were reduced to 2-car sets by removing the centre car), all in an effort to keep this running.

 

As already mentioned, this, and a lot more besides is on the Blood and Custard website. There is probably a bit too much information for the casual reader who just wants an overview, but it really is an undisputed resource of Southern Region unit information.

[roythebus1]

The 4EPBs were limited to 75mph by their gearing and shouldn't have run with VEP/BEP/CEP etc...however...

BEP/CEP/CIG/BIG were used on the Portsmouth line services but did sometimes work sunday diversions via Eastleigh.

All sorts of odd formations happened while we were waiting for the Plastic Pigs to appear. Basically if it was EP brake fitted and had the right jumper cables, it would be used. The parcel vans were a rarity on the SWD, but did sometimes appear at Guildford from the Redhill direction. With a very careful driver and a good knowledge of the route it was the extreme limit of battery power!

Other freight was for the oil terminal just outside Alton, stock transfers to the Mid-Hants, and of course all sorts of stock transfers to and from Eastleigh, 38 tube stock, W&C stock, anything that needed fixing.

[Oldddudders]

4 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

The 4EPBs were limited to 75mph by their gearing and shouldn't have run with VEP/BEP/CEP 

According to the Electrified Lines Instructions, EPBs and express stock could work together provided the formation was at least 50% express stock. Some trains, e.g. 17.16 Vic to Sheerness, were booked that way for years, as 6HAP 4EPB. Speeds down Sole St bank would have been in excess of 75 mph by some margin. 

[Hal Nail]

14 hours ago, Geep7 said:

As regards the rest of the EMU stock, it was rare, but the odd 2/4Epb did venture west of Basingstoke, generally going to Eastleigh works. 2-Hap's definitely did go west of Basingstoke, usually tacked to the front or back of a 4-Vep. I'm sure there were rare occasions, but I don't think the Bournemouth line saw very many 4-Cep's or 4-Bep's, especially in pre-rebuilt condition.

Growing up in Southampton from 1973, I never saw any of these, although obviously was slightly West of anything on its way to or from Eastleigh.

 

It certainly wasnt a hotbed of interest! On a typical day in the early 80s, "bog carts" (VEPs, REPs, TCs and Thumpers) dominated by quite a margin. Next most common were 47s on the cross country and freightliner and then if you hung around long enough you might see a 33 or 73.

 

Slightly earlier than the 80s period, I do remember seeing 74s and 07s quite often, plus 31s on the Portsmouth to Bristol route.

 

At some point after I went to university, HSTs were used on the cross country services to the North via Basingstoke

 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Hal Nail

[DY444]

5 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

The 4EPBs were limited to 75mph by their gearing and shouldn't have run with VEP/BEP/CEP etc...

 

 

 

There was a period in the late 60s and early 70s when the Guildford via Cobham service was booked VEP + EPB.  Occasionally these turned up on the Bournemouth line and I recall travelling from Eastleigh to Southampton one summer afternoon in 1967 in a VEP/EPB formation - the EPB was 5115 in green.

[DY444]

14 hours ago, Geep7 said:

Ok, so for modelling a 4-Rep. The outer 2 driving coaches were all-but identical to the 4-TC driving coaches above the underframe (Window layout, seating plan, roof layout etc.). Below though, and both driving coaches were mounted on 2 Mk6 motor bogies (very similar to those under a Class 73) with all the associated underframe equipment of an SR Mk1 style EMU. In between were a TBFK (Trailer Brake First Corridor) and TB (Trailer Buffet).

 

You could modify a Kernow/Bachmann 4-TC into a 4-Rep. Motorising could be the issue, but not impossible. I would perhaps suggest putting the motor in the Buffet car. The driving coaches are sorted, not much you really need to do to that, except add the underframe equipment, and change the bogies (MJT cast sides?). The TFK you can probably do easily by swapping the sides from a standard Bachmann Mk1 BFK. The trailer buffet could be problematic, as Bachmann haven't done an RB in their MK1 range yet, however, you could do a Rep from the second batch built in the 1970's, which used standard Mk1 RU's, and i'm pretty sure Bachmann do one of these.

 

Either that, or you can go down the etched brass sides route, MJT do the sides for the 4-TC, but not the Rep, so you'd need to get a pack of these (if they are available) and then Comet brass sides for the TFK and TB.

 

If i'm honest, it sounds like a lot of work, even for someone who hasn't recently returned to the hobby.

 

As regards the rest of the EMU stock, it was rare, but the odd 2/4Epb did venture west of Basingstoke, generally going to Eastleigh works. 2-Hap's definitely did go west of Basingstoke, usually tacked to the front or back of a 4-Vep. I'm sure there were rare occasions, but I don't think the Bournemouth line saw very many 4-Cep's or 4-Bep's, especially in pre-rebuilt condition.

 

Thumpers were definitely used in this area though, although were the more usual 3H/3D variety. Actually into the 1970's there were only 4 2H sets, and by the 1980's these had been made up to 3-car sets by inserting a surplus 2-Epb Driving Trailer from disbanded Tadpole sets.

 

Once you get into the Network SouthEast era, things get a tad more complicated, and units were moved around between divisions, sets reduced in length (i.e most of the DEMU fleet were reduced to 2-car sets by removing the centre car), all in an effort to keep this running.

 

As already mentioned, this, and a lot more besides is on the Blood and Custard website. There is probably a bit too much information for the casual reader who just wants an overview, but it really is an undisputed resource of Southern Region unit information.

 

Just a pedant point.  The REP motor coaches had a lot more equipment under them than other "SR Mk1 style EMU" motor coaches as they had 2 power circuits and two sets of camshaft equipment.

 

Concur with the rest. 

 

HAPs had booked work to Bournemouth over the years, usually on peak hour "93s".   

 

In my experience CIG/BIGs were quite unusual on the Bournemouth line in the 70s.  They did appear occasionally but not very often.  They became very common later.  Likewise with CEP/BEPs which were even rarer in my experience as I don't recall ever seeing one on the Bournemouth line in the 60s or 70s - but again they became common later.

[Oldddudders]

By and large, CEPs and BEPs were South Eastern Units, built in conjunction with Kent Coast Electrification, but a number of the early units were allocated to the Central, mainly as replacements for the Cors and Bufs on the Mid-Sussex fasts to/from Portsmouth and Bognor. When the CEPs and BEPs were rebuilt with the brake in the middle a number were re-geared, I think, for use on the Portsmouth Direct. No doubt these were later redeployed to other parts of SWD. 

[DY444]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

By and large, CEPs and BEPs were South Eastern Units, built in conjunction with Kent Coast Electrification, but a number of the early units were allocated to the Central, mainly as replacements for the Cors and Bufs on the Mid-Sussex fasts to/from Portsmouth and Bognor. When the CEPs and BEPs were rebuilt with the brake in the middle a number were re-geared, I think, for use on the Portsmouth Direct. No doubt these were later redeployed to other parts of SWD. 

 

Indeed but even beyond the divisional allocation it always seemed to me as an outsider looking in that the SR made a determined effort (even by railway standards) to diagram things in a particular way in that late 60s/70s period and bent over backwards to ensure it was adhered to. 

 

As I said it's my perception and recollection and the reality may have been different but on the SED for example, CEPs seemed to do the boat trains and Kent Coast fasts; VEPs would be Maidstone and main line stoppers plus a few peak extras.  On the SWD CIGs didn't go to Bournemouth.  On the CD CIGs did the fasts and VEPs did the stoppers etc etc. 

 

Similar types seemed to stick together, it was unusual to see CEPs with VEPs, or CIGs with VEPs.  So much so in fact that an old friend was convinced for years that CIGs and VEPs couldn't work together because you never seemed to see it. 

 

Then in the early 80s it all started to change and everything seemed to work with everything else and go everywhere!

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by DY444

[bécasse]

5 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

According to the Electrified Lines Instructions, EPBs and express stock could work together provided the formation was at least 50% express stock. Some trains, e.g. 17.16 Vic to Sheerness, were booked that way for years, as 6HAP 4EPB. Speeds down Sole St bank would have been in excess of 75 mph by some margin. 

6-HAP+4-EPB was a regular peak-hour formation on the former SER lines of the SED from the initial delivery of the BR-style 2-HAPs working selected Cannon Street-Sevenoaks and Cannon Street-Gillingham services in the days when electrification went no further. Balancing services meant that there were some shorter runs too which were advertised as 2nd class only despite the presence of the HAPs.

[brushman47544]

On 22/01/2023 at 16:14, Wellyboots said:

For the period you're interested in the passenger services would be;

 

DEMUs were used on Basingstoke - Reading, Portsmouth - Salisbury via Southampton, and Eastleigh to Fareham services.

 

[snip]

 

As for freight, as you mentioned there's the container traffic from Southampton,

 

On Sundays for a number of years the Reading - Basingstoke service was extended to Portsmouth and Class 33/1 + 4-TC were used instead of DEMUs

 

Very rare, but I have seen SF allocated Class 37s on the Ripple Lane - Southampton container trains (via Reading), presumably covering for a non-available Class 47.

Edited January 27, 2023 by brushman47544

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Indeed but even beyond the divisional allocation it always seemed to me as an outsider looking in that the SR made a determined effort (even by railway standards) to diagram things in a particular way in that late 60s/70s period and bent over backwards to ensure it was adhered to. 

The 10.00 Morning Conference, by phone between the HQ and Divisional Conference Officers - typically the Operating Officer but others might deputise - always made specific reference to wrong formations. The Controls were required to identify all trains starting with wrong stock and the Division could well be hammered if there were too many, although the CM&EE rep on the conference might be involved if availability was below normal levels. CEP vice BEP and Cig vice Big were of particular concern, obviously. Suburban trains suffered fewer issues, and were not monitored to the same extent. 

 

On a Controllers' Course at Beckenham in 1969 I recall Charlie Harrington, who was, I think, Train Planning Officer at Waterloo, saying he hoped there wouldn't be a Channel Tunnel, because he was convinced after three weeks a 14-car TEE set would be on the 18.04 London Bridge to Coulsdon North.......

[Nearholmer]

There were a few express-geared EPBs, allocated to the SED iirc, used in peak hour M&G services with HAP or VEP, iirc. I have some dim recollection that there was something different about the brake valve settings on those units too, to make them match better, but it’s a long time ago and I may have made that up.

[Oldddudders]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

There were a few express-geared EPBs, allocated to the SED iirc, used in peak hour M&G services with HAP or VEP, iirc. I have some dim recollection that there was something different about the brake valve settings on those units too, to make them match better, but it’s a long time ago and I may have made that up.

Central had 5357/8 in that configuration, one of which would be used on an up Eastbourne to LB service in the morning, sit at Streatham Hill during the day, and then work a down Vic service to Eastbourne in the evening peak.