Exhibiting in the EU

[fulton]

Have today had a long conversation with two officials on the HMRC, import/export help line, this is what I understand from what I have been told, in their view taking your personal model railway, to an exhibition in the EU and back again, would be treated exactly the same as taking other personal items to the EU on a temporary basis, such as going on holiday, no need to declare anything, in effect you are declaring items by "Conduct" by driving pass the check point, does not matter if car or van, private, hired or leased ( if hired or leased you may need written authorization from the owner that you can take the vehicle out of the UK ), Carnets only apply to business/commercial goods, even if the exhibition was a business/commercial one, your private personal status would not change unless your were making financial gain, such as, if you charged an appearance fee, sold items or received unjustified expenses, expenses should be supported with receipts, would also be prudent when travelling to have proof of your return ticket, and invitation,. This is how I have understood the situation from todays conversation with HMRC.

[bécasse]

But it isn't HMRC that is the problem. It seems quite clear that they have been told to continue business (almost as)  normal allowing things into the UK as if it were still in the EU. However, in the other direction the Customs of any one country (and in the given case that will almost certainly be France or the Netherlands) have to apply the rules strictly on behalf of every member of the EU. Those rules are strict and effectively require taxes to be imposed on everything of any value (it used to be €12 upwards, it isn't now). A model railway layout and its accruements being imported even temporarily into the EU are subject to those taxes, including VAT @ 20-21%, but dispensation is sought on the basis that the said items will be re-exported  (back to the UK) within a brief period and would then qualify for a reimbursement of the taxes paid. It is that dispensation that an ATA carnet provides, effectively being an insurance policy which will pay those taxes if the items aren't re-exported in totality within the permitted period.

 

Those of us who reside in the EU and are modellers of UK prototypes can testify as to the hassle and expense involved in trying to import even the simplest of items from the UK and it is disingenuous of HMRC to suggest otherwise. At least magazines seem to get through now but there was a period when even they were likely to arrive with a "€ 20 to be paid" tag.

[bbishop]

So my leap of optimism was immediately dashed.

 

Boy, would I like to sound off about the underlying politics but I understand Phil's concerns about "thread drift".

 

Bill

[admiles]

1 hour ago, fulton said:

Have today had a long conversation with two officials on the HMRC, import/export help line, this is what I understand from what I have been told, in their view taking your personal model railway, to an exhibition in the EU and back again, would be treated exactly the same as taking other personal items to the EU on a temporary basis, such as going on holiday, no need to declare anything, in effect you are declaring items by "Conduct" by driving pass the check point, does not matter if car or van, private, hired or leased ( if hired or leased you may need written authorization from the owner that you can take the vehicle out of the UK ), Carnets only apply to business/commercial goods, even if the exhibition was a business/commercial one, your private personal status would not change unless your were making financial gain, such as, if you charged an appearance fee, sold items or received unjustified expenses, expenses should be supported with receipts, would also be prudent when travelling to have proof of your return ticket, and invitation,. This is how I have understood the situation from todays conversation with HMRC.

 

Not correct I'm afraid.  ATA Carnets categorically do not just apply to commercial goods. I've spent the last 30 years (Eek!) dealing with the procuring of Carnets and customs clearance of goods traveling under Carnets.  

 

I also have several friends who regularly travel to the EU to take part in track days with cars and motorcycles.  If they aren't road registered (lots aren't if just for track use) they too now need a Carnet. Nothing commercial about that.

 

As has been said you're more than likely to be fine and roll through the ports/tunnel terminals unchecked but if you are checked things could get very expensive. Why take the risk? 

Edited January 25, 2023 by admiles

[fulton]

54 minutes ago, bécasse said:

 A model railway layout and its accruements being imported even temporarily into the EU are subject to those taxes, including VAT @ 20-21%, but dispensation is sought on the basis that the said items will be re-exported  (back to the UK) within a brief period and would then qualify for a reimbursement of the taxes paid. It is that dispensation that an ATA carnet provides, effectively being an insurance policy which will pay those taxes if the items aren't re-exported in totality within the permitted period.

I still do not understand, when I, travel to the EU, I have personnel possessions with me, worth far more than my model railway, there is no question of paying tax, HMRC considered my model railway to also be a personnel possession, my vehicle, the most valuable single item, is imported, temporarily, then exported, there is no tax to pay.

[Talltim]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

But it isn't HMRC that is the problem. It seems quite clear that they have been told to continue business (almost as)  normal allowing things into the UK as if it were still in the EU. However, in the other direction the Customs of any one country (and in the given case that will almost certainly be France or the Netherlands) have to apply the rules strictly on behalf of every member of the EU. Those rules are strict and effectively require taxes to be imposed on everything of any value (it used to be €12 upwards, it isn't now). A model railway layout and its accruements being imported even temporarily into the EU are subject to those taxes, including VAT @ 20-21%, but dispensation is sought on the basis that the said items will be re-exported  (back to the UK) within a brief period and would then qualify for a reimbursement of the taxes paid. It is that dispensation that an ATA carnet provides, effectively being an insurance policy which will pay those taxes if the items aren't re-exported in totality within the permitted period.

 

Those of us who reside in the EU and are modellers of UK prototypes can testify as to the hassle and expense involved in trying to import even the simplest of items from the UK and it is disingenuous of HMRC to suggest otherwise. At least magazines seem to get through now but there was a period when even they were likely to arrive with a "€ 20 to be paid" tag.

So those rules should apply to, say, your mobile phone, or laptop? Or even your clothes?

Edited January 25, 2023 by Talltim

[PMP]

https://www.gov.uk/taking-goods-out-uk-temporarily
 

This is probably the best information. It mentions if taking ‘stuff’ overseas (temporarily exporting), for visits that include goods for ‘educational, scientific and cultural purposes’. An exhibition is certainly a cultural and potentially educational purpose. 
 

So following the KISS principle, fill a carnet in if exhibiting a layout outside the UK. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by PMP

[Bernard Lamb]

36 minutes ago, Talltim said:

So those rules should apply to, say, your mobile phone, or laptop? Or even your clothes?

If somebody wanted to be awkward then I suppose yes. I was on a coach once that was impounded after an alleged traffic offence, so it can be serious when things start to go wrong. 

In normal circumstances common sense comes into play.

However twenty model locomotives and rolling stock might cause questions to be asked. Which is why some of us are urging caution.

One of the major problems with Brexit is that the UK government has one idea of how things are expected to work while the EU view can be very different. That is not a personal politcal view. It is simply how things are.

Bernard

 

[Neil]

On 24/01/2023 at 09:01, Neil said:

.... I'll ask on another forum with a strong international membership if there is like for like experience there. .... 

 

Well I asked and have had a response from someone who has done this last year. He's well educated and responsible so I've no doubt that his experience is genuine. He took his layout by car from the UK to France using the shuttle. He printed off his invitation and confirmation from the organisers along with his hotel reservation. Apparently French customs in Cheriton were not interested and on his return English customs in Calais wanted to look in the car but nothing more. He does caution that his experience may not be typical.

 

It strikes me that he essentially did it this way but without  the C&E form 1246

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, Talltim said:

So those rules should apply to, say, your mobile phone, or laptop? Or even your clothes?

 

Common sense comes into play. Things that are clearly personal effects are not normally an issue. However, if you were a keen amateur photographer carrying a case load of expensive camera equipment, or a watch enthusiast with a couple of expensive watches or any number of other possibilities then either an ATA carnet or the customs declarations used in some jurisdictions would indeed be prudent. 

[Andy Hayter]

@fulton

 

The question of taking those goods into the EU is well made.  However there are some barriers to using these as goods to trade (which is what the rules are all about).

 

Your laptop/tablet has a QWERTY keyboard - not frequently found on the continent where AZERTY is far more common and more, the "special" characters that make up many alphabets are not immediately available.  Yes you can reproduce them through keystroke combinations but it would significantly devalue any perceived worth.

 

Your vehicle carries unique markers (one being where the steering wheel is) - registration number, chassis number etc.  Trying to re-register it in any EU country would involve so many hoops to be jumped through* and the new owner paying import taxes that its value would be severely degraded.

 

*It was bad enough for me re-registering  a German car in France with no change of owner.  Certificates of origin, certificates of conformity,, tax exemption certificate gained bt presenting the original bill of sale showing that EU taxes had already been paid.  All this to import 2 x French built Renaults into France! 

[Bernard Lamb]

6 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

@fulton

 

The question of taking those goods into the EU is well made.  However there are some barriers to using these as goods to trade (which is what the rules are all about).

 

Your laptop/tablet has a QWERTY keyboard - not frequently found on the continent where AZERTY is far more common and more, the "special" characters that make up many alphabets are not immediately available.  Yes you can reproduce them through keystroke combinations but it would significantly devalue any perceived worth.

 

Your vehicle carries unique markers (one being where the steering wheel is) - registration number, chassis number etc.  Trying to re-register it in any EU country would involve so many hoops to be jumped through* and the new owner paying import taxes that its value would be severely degraded.

 

*It was bad enough for me re-registering  a German car in France with no change of owner.  Certificates of origin, certificates of conformity,, tax exemption certificate gained bt presenting the original bill of sale showing that EU taxes had already been paid.  All this to import 2 x French built Renaults into France! 

Happy days.

Inprinted on my brain is "alt 64" to get an @ sign in order to write emails. Spanish keyboard for those not aware.

When the new shape Beetle was first made in Mexico SWMBO wanted one. She knew a dealer of much more upmarket cars who did personal imports and he offered to help her with the documentation. The car was ordered and was sent as part of a large shpment to Germany. It was then sent to the UK as part of a much smaller batch.  Our friend arranged to have it delivered to his workshop and he arranged the UK registration. A complication with the date of the car arriving and the date of the batch of registrations that he was dealing with was solved by the car being delivered to our house and the car being put in the garage out of sight as the date of registration was still in the future. It did save around 30% from memory so well worth the hassle.

Bernard

[adb968008]

On 24/01/2023 at 23:27, Andy Hayter said:

I think you are over-complicating things.

 

If you are taking goods abroad to an exhibition (it says trade in the links below but if there are traders present it could well be interpreted as trade and the rules for creative and recreational presentation are similar) for re-import to the UK you should fill out and pay for an ATA Carnet - or more realistically create your own manifest and fill in form C&E 1246 ( https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/946392/CE1246.pdf) to present at export and with no cost.  I would suggest the manifest can be very simple indeed:

 

Model railway layout called Blogg Street comprising:

x decorated boards

rolling stock consisting of  n locomotives;  p items of rolling stock

controllers for the operation of the above.

 

https://www.gov.uk/taking-goods-out-uk-temporarily/duplicate-list

 

Will this be really necessary?  Quite possibly not but it avoids a long delay if you meet a UK customs officer on  a bad day.

i’m not sure i’d agree on generic itemisations.

 

ive seen officials checking serial numbers on laptops and cameras in several countries, and seeking valuations on each item.

tbh, if it were me taking my hard earned effort with me, and this was my collection, i’d photograph the lot, put it in a spreadsheet, line by line, pdf and print it.

Thats my starting point, and seek to work on that content into whatever official docs it needs to be in.

 

Then theres no doubts.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

9 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

If somebody wanted to be awkward then I suppose yes. I was on a coach once that was impounded after an alleged traffic offence, so it can be serious when things start to go wrong. 

In normal circumstances common sense comes into play.

However twenty model locomotives and rolling stock might cause questions to be asked. Which is why some of us are urging caution.

One of the major problems with Brexit is that the UK government has one idea of how things are expected to work while the EU view can be very different. That is not a personal politcal view. It is simply how things are.

Bernard

 

Its not just the EU view, its each countries view. In the case of Belgium, 3 different provinces each have their own views.

 

What you dont want to be, is the one who has challenge those views.

 

Netherlands Ive always found to be very aggressive on border controls, but then when you look at sometypes  wandering Amsterdam it makes sense, plus they are shipping department of Europe. If I were taking a layout to Europe, Netherlands wouldnt be my first choice to learn from.

 

BENELUX has always been a challenge, one bank I worked for wasnt allowed to move IT equipment between Netherlands and Belgium, despite being in the EU.

 

France on the other hand seem pragmatic.

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

Just to put a lighter note on this subject,..

 

20 odd years ago, in Mexico… my, ex-gf and ex-Gf mother went on holiday from San Francisco ( where I was living at the time).

 

comes to boarding, and the airline only had 2 seats left on the flight.. so being the gent (and thinking of that kids puzzle of the fox, chicken and seeds crossing a river)… I said fine take your mother, as any other combo wasnt pretty.

 

off they go, direct flight, and 3 hours later they are home.

 

Me meanwhile, no more direct flights, 5 hour wait and a connection in Phoenix.. approaching Phoenix, I realise there 3 suitcases, and mine 1 are all in my name.

 

So i pick up the lot, solo, wander to immigration and look like a south american relocatee, so I was stopped…

 

He quickly realises i’m English but proceeds to open the ex-gf’s mothers suitcase and inevitably holds up her rather large unflattering under wear and asks

 

“are these yours”…?

 

At which I have to but giggling say

 

“ i have never seen these in my life and really didnt want to either”.

 

explain, sees the funny side and sent me on my way.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by adb968008

[fulton]

19 hours ago, admiles said:

 

 

 

As has been said you're more than likely to be fine and roll through the ports/tunnel terminals unchecked but if you are checked things could get very expensive. Why take the risk? 

Yes I see race day vehicles are noted in the regulations, and a ATA Carnet is required for them, accepting that it would be prudent to have one for your model railway, as you are in the business, how complicated is it? how much does it cost? 

[PMP]

38 minutes ago, fulton said:

Yes I see race day vehicles are noted in the regulations, and a ATA Carnet is required for them, accepting that it would be prudent to have one for your model railway, as you are in the business, how complicated is it? how much does it cost? 

https://www.gov.uk/taking-goods-out-uk-temporarily

[Kylestrome]

By now, the OP has probably given up any idea of taking his layout to the EU because it's just too much bother, and I wouldn't blame him.

 

The first time I brought a micro layout to the UK, as handbaggage by air, was when we still had the EEC. I remember that returning to Germany was particularly fraught because I came up against an extremely suspicious Customs officer. I had the devil of a job convincing her, in my then barely adequate German, that I was the original owner, had built everything myself and that I hadn't bought everything in Britain! I eventually got waved through but she was pretty reluctant to let me go. Needless to say, on subsequent visits with the layout, when we were all in the EU, the only slight difficulty was the security check.

 

These discussions and uncertainties make me quite sure that I'll not be bringing any modelling efforts over again*. The ability to exhibit in the UK is something I might miss but, from my point of view, it's not exactly a necessity.

 

David

 

*Does that make me an ex-hibitor?

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Kylestrome
The merest whiff of levity.

[2mmMark]

From November 2023, there will be an additional visa requirement for UK citizens to travel to Europe

https://www.etias.info/visa-requirements/uk-citizens/
 

 

[jjb1970]

Getting an ATA carnet is an extra expense, but the cost is probably not that much more to the costs of exhibiting overseas. I'd expect most people to have all the information they need for the form from their insurance information so it shouldn't be that much of a hassle.

[jjb1970]

2 minutes ago, 2mmMark said:

From November 2023, there will be an additional visa requirement for UK citizens to travel to Europe

https://www.etias.info/visa-requirements/uk-citizens/
 

 

 

It's not a visa requirement, it's a travel information requirement. A lot of countries have such systems, for example a condition of the visa wiaver scheme for the US and Canada is completing an ESTA before travelling.

[jjb1970]

2 minutes ago, 2mmMark said:

There's always some idiotic pedant ready to chime in isn't there?  While the wording may not have reached the perfection required by Mr. Jib, a simple visit to the link would have sufficed to give clarity.

Perhaps it's best to simply not bother being helpful.

 

 

Well, you were the one who said visa. If you don't want to be corrected you should be correct, visas are completely different to a travel information requirements.

[2mmMark]

8 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

Well, you were the one who said visa. If you don't want to be corrected you should be correct, visas are completely different to a travel information requirements.

Perhaps you should take a minute to assess exactly what value your intervention brought to the discussion. It's the equivalent of saying there's one rivet missing on the invisible underneath of the right hand index throckle plate on the Triangby B57 class.

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by 2mmMark

[jjb1970]

9 minutes ago, 2mmMark said:

Perhaps you should take a minute to assess exactly what value your intervention brought to the discussion. It's the equivalent of saying there's one rivet missing on the invisible underneath of the right hand index throckle plate on the Triangby B57 class.

 

If I offended you I apologise, that was not my intent. However, this is a charged and emotive  issue and there is a lot of misinformation being thrown around the media and by politicians. If you mention British people will need visas to visit the EU (as inferred by your post) that is not helpful and could easily be misconstrued, hence I think it valid to correct it. The travel information requirement has been in the works for years and it's not new or news. 

[spamcan61]

16 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

Because Boris wanted to try to big up the Union despite Northern Ireland not voting for either him or Br*xit, and GB doesn't include NI.  UK does.

Thinking about it, taking one's train set to the continental EU via NI -> Eire might de-risk the process...