Exhibiting in the EU

[Neil]

I think that it's fair to say that travel to the rest of Europe is not as easy as it was, that ETIAS is another hoop to jump through and that it's a crying shame that we have all lost something of value that we once had. With many surveys reflecting that there is growing support for this view the optimist in me is ever hopeful that things may get easier in the future. Would I stick my neck out and take a layout to the EU at the moment? I think I probably would, I love foreign travel and the optimist in me would win out. If it went wrong I've no doubt that it would be a faff to sort things out but I'm retired now so I would have plenty of time to do so, even though I'd be cursing at the stupidity of the situation I'd been put in by a moment of madness seven years ago.

[doctor quinn]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Getting an ATA carnet is an extra expense, but the cost is probably not that much more to the costs of exhibiting overseas. I'd expect most people to have all the information they need for the form from their insurance information so it shouldn't be that much of a hassle.

Apparently £325+VAT for a carnet https://www.londonchamber.co.uk/international-trade/trade-documentation/ata-carnet/

 

The alternative is duplicate lists which have been discussed, your suggestion of including photos of the items seems eminently sensible. Link to guidance below

https://www.gov.uk/taking-goods-out-uk-temporarily/duplicate-list

 

[phil-b259]

On 24/01/2023 at 20:20, spamcan61 said:

I fail to see any fundamental difference; visiting another country for recreational purposes, as opposed to commercial ones.

 

You might not - post Brexit the various customs & excise departments of the UK / EU member states do!

 

Hence the fundamental question being asked - does taking a model railway layout count as a personal / commercial purpose?

 

If you are taking it with you to your French holiday cottage say to play with while on holiday then that is clearly for personal purposes.

 

If you are taking it to be exhibited at a commercially held (as opposed to a 'friends meetup' round someones house) then its clearly for commercial purposes.

[phil-b259]

On 25/01/2023 at 13:47, fulton said:

I still do not understand, when I, travel to the EU, I have personnel possessions with me, worth far more than my model railway, there is no question of paying tax, HMRC considered my model railway to also be a personnel possession, my vehicle, the most valuable single item, is imported, temporarily, then exported, there is no tax to pay.

 

Its about what you DO with your model railway that counts. Taking it with you to enjoy in you holiday home or show off to a friend is one thing - displaying it at a commercial event is quite another.

 

Taking your vehicle as an example - if it is being taken as a method of transport to and from your holiday then quite obviously that is effectively 'personal' use - but taking it to a classic car exhibition on a trailer is a commercial purpose.

 

 

[DenysW]

I used to say this at work quite often, and not as an insult: "The reason I hate dealing with rational people is that they are so .... rational."

 

Think of the VAT wars: Are Jaffa Cake Biscuits? Are Kilts Skirts? Is this take-out or eat-in if you sit down immediately outside the shop and eat it? What if you are a Child (by law) but, due to your size, into Adult sizes (for VAT) - can you refuse to pay the VAT at check-out? And vice versa for short/small Adults shopping in what are the Children's sizes (for VAT)?

 

The bureaucrats are tasked with drawing lines that divides grey into BLACK and WHITE as the only options. I read this thread as a combination of folks saying "Hey! I always call it White, and no issues so far.", and folks saying "I've seen the officials calling the same thing Black, better to be prepared".

 

Summary: I have a gift for being caught, so I'd go with mid-range cautious advice. If this gift is severe with you, go for ultra-cautious. If no-one ever challenges you, go for Que sera, sera.

[adb968008]

Makes you wonder how thieves smuggle precious parts for cars, railway locomotives etc to Europe for scrap.

 

Are they paying tax on it, or getting an ATA ?

Edited January 27, 2023 by adb968008

[RichardT]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Makes you wonder how thieves smuggle precious parts for cars, railway locomotives etc to Europe for scrap.

 

Are they paying tax on it, or getting an ATA ?

Probably a clue in the word “smuggle”!

 

RichardT

[Oldddudders]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Makes you wonder how thieves smuggle precious parts for cars, railway locomotives etc to Europe for scrap.

 

Are they paying tax on it, or getting an ATA ?

Nah - return loads on all those illegal immigrant boats! 

[Enterprisingwestern]

47 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Nah - return loads on all those illegal immigrant boats! 

 

Are they paying VAT on the boats when they land?

 

Mike.

[Andy Hayter]

No need.  They are returning them to the EU - all you need is the purchase receipt.

[Bernard Lamb]

23 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

No need.  They are returning them to the EU - all you need is the purchase receipt.

They need them back for the next batch of passengers.

Bernard

[RichardT]

Not sure I like the direction this thread is taking. Time to ignore it I feel.

 

RT

[Bernard Lamb]

1 minute ago, RichardT said:

Not sure I like the direction this thread is taking. Time to ignore it I feel.

 

RT

In what way?

We seem to have reached a view on how to tackle the problem of paperwork requirements and now we have gone over to some fairly light hearted banter on the post Brexit situation.

As a European rather than a Renainer I accept the position re Brexit. That does not stop me from taking the mickey out of the resulting situation. 

Given the current Home Office attitude I might well need the services of the people smugglers to get my relatives here in the future.😀

To get serious and political for a moment, when SWMBO came to the UK I had a direct phone contact with a named person in the Home Office who was there to provide me with all the assistance that was needed to allow SWMBO to settle here and to bring in any goods free of duty. She also was fast tracked to UK citizenship and a passport in three weeks. Do you wonder why I do not like the attitude of the current government?

Bernard

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, RichardT said:

Not sure I like the direction this thread is taking. Time to ignore it I feel.

 

RT

 

If you don't laugh you'll cry.

 

Mike.

[jjb1970]

Laughing in the face of tragedy is a long standing way to deal with extreme situations, groups like doctors, nurses, fire fighters, military personnel and police officers are notorious for often having a very dark sense of humour and seeing the humour in what they experience. If they didn't then many of them would go mad. However, I get RichardT's sentiment when a humanitarian tragedy (illegal migration by sea) becomes a subject for jokes in a more general context.

[fulton]

After lots of good discussions on here about paperwork, I have just realized I did not have a valid Driving License, to use on my regular trips to the EU, I still have the old paper Driving License, I need an INTERNATIONAL DRIVING PERMIT to go with it, not required if you have the current photo license, so this morning, a trip to the Post Office, with Passport, Driving License, passport photo and £5.50, I now have the Permit that lasts three years, which is when my License runs out anyway. So if you are one of the few that still have the old paper License, you generally need this Permit to drive anywhere outside of the UK, not just the EU.

Edited February 17, 2023 by fulton
correction

[Ron Ron Ron]

If you're taking your car from the UK to mainland Europe, just make sure you don't suffer a break down, or accident where your car needs to go into a repair garage for any period of time.

From what I understand, from reading my son's European business use, insurance cover, the car could be considered an import and subject to import duty and VAT; waived or recoverable once the car returns to the UK.

That suggests it must be worst if the car is an accident write-off and is left in the particular EU state to be disposed of.

The insurance policy my son has, provides cover for any duty and tax costs if any of these eventualities occur.

 

How would the relevant customs authorities will be aware that someone's car has been temporarily "detained' for repairs anyway?

 

Does anyone know if what the insurance documents say is correct?

 

.

[Andy Hayter]

For a write off, the main issue will be in the country where the vehicle has been written off.  To scrap the vehicle the registration has to be given and at that point a UK registration will cause all of the alarm bells to ring with the authorities.   Import duty demands will follow.

[Enterprisingwestern]

10 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

For a write off, the main issue will be in the country where the vehicle has been written off.  To scrap the vehicle the registration has to be given and at that point a UK registration will cause all of the alarm bells to ring with the authorities.   Import duty demands will follow.

 

Unless you have repatriation cover?

 

Mike.

[adb968008]

22 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

For a write off, the main issue will be in the country where the vehicle has been written off.  To scrap the vehicle the registration has to be given and at that point a UK registration will cause all of the alarm bells to ring with the authorities.   Import duty demands will follow.

How much duty is due on something of nil value ?

[Andy Hayter]

The vehicle will never be of nil value - it will have a scrap value. 

 

But I guess the answer to your question would have to be put to the relevant customs authorities.  I have an inkling however the value would be based on the value at the point of importation.  [I have worked with customs before.]

[roythebus1]

To pick up on this thread, Phil B says 

"Taking your vehicle as an example - if it is being taken as a method of transport to and from your holiday then quite obviously that is effectively 'personal' use - but taking it to a classic car exhibition on a trailer is a commercial purpose."  There was a case that went before the European Court a few years back involving a Swedish motor racing man, took his car to a race meet and got done for not using a tachograph, taking his car in his transporter to an event where he may get attendance money. He appealed against the fine or whatever the penalty was, long story short, the Swedish government took the case to the European Court who decided that he was carrying his own goods in his own lorry/transporter and was not as such carrying goods for hire and reward. the goods would get off, he would get paid to show his goods and then he took his goods home again. He did not need to use a tachograph. If, however he took someone else's car to the same car meet and got aid for taking that car, he would be doing so for hire and reward and would need a tachograph.

It seems a roundabout way of explaining things, but should a case ever get to court , this case can be quoted as a test case. you take your train set in your van, not getting paid by anybody to do so. You show train set at show and get paid for doing so. You take train set home, you are not getting paid for it. It is your personal possession.

Voluntary work is classed as "work' in most cases as by you or me volunteering to do something you could be seen as doing an EU national out of a job. Whether my voluntary work for a narrow gauge tramway in Belgium would be classed like this I haven't found out yet.

I have enough problems sending vintage bus spares to Europe thanks to the B word. I used to be able to put them in my car or van, take them, fit them and come back. not any more..

 

 

[roythebus1]

Right, I've just found the link for the case I mentioned in my post above. It makes interesting reading and comparisons between motor racing and model railways. Just swap the words over for your chosen hobby..https://www.christabelhallas.co.uk/topic/european_court_gives_ruling_on_sponsorship_and_the_use_of_a_tachograph/

[bécasse]

Reading Christbel Hallas's report of the ECJ ruling (and the added warning about every case being different) suggests to me that the ruling would have minimal impact on taking model railway layouts across the EU border (either way) for display at exhibitions. The main issue there is that one would be taking something of (considerable) value across a Customs' frontier and the fact that normally VAT/TVA (and possibly duty) would be charged on the value of the items concerned. A carnet acts as an insurance policy that that VAT would in fact be paid should the items remain the far side of the Customs' frontier instead of being returned home a few days later as intended.

[lippy]

On 23/01/2023 at 10:28, bécasse said:

It is really only possible with an ATA carnet - which is effectively an insurance policy that will pay the taxes due if you fail to bring everything back to the UK. You will probably have a nasty shock when you find out how much it will cost. Don't forget too that you may have to book your Channel/North Sea crossing as a commercial vehicle.

 

 

£395+vat