NBL Warship’s - were they really that bad?

[spamcan61]

I find the 1955-1965 period on the UK railways a fascinating cocktail of engineering, business practices, politics  and a big trough full of taxpayer funding  So many aspects, so many complex developments going on at once.

Edited June 7, 2023 by spamcan61

[APOLLO]

First trip recorded in my trip log is 13 July 1963 (aged 11), holiday in Ilfracombe.

 

Wigan to Manchester Victoria 42180 (2-6-4 tank)

Man Vic to Piccadilly Bus 3218

Manchester to Exeter St Davids through train - To Plymouth I think, Electric, Steam & Diesel haulage on same train !!

Picc to Crewe E3020

Crewe to Shrewsbury Unidentified Black 5

Shrewsbury to Exeter St Davids D809 Champion

Exeter to Ilfracombe WC 34069 Hawkinge

 

On 26/7 D831 Monarch took us home from Exeter to Crewe.

 

My only other trip behind a Warship was Worcester to Paddington behind a shiny clean newly blue painted NB Warship D839 Relentless on 18 September 1970 - with an LM region weekly rover ticket(that was NOT valid for this trip - but it was one of the last Warships, we decided to risk it and we got away with it !!!)

 

Nice locos, only ever saw a few.

 

Brit15

 

 

[melmoth]

21 hours ago, Halvarras said:

...it would appear that NBL failed to cope as well as Beyer-Peacock, who had also been a very active steam locomotive builder.

 

And who also went bust in the 60s

[Halvarras]

2 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

And who also went bust in the 60s

 

True of course that they only lasted around 4 years longer, they were tough times for loco builders and with the switch from large numbers of steam locos to a far smaller requirement for replacement diesels a shake-out was inevitable. And of course the problem with the rapid replacement of one form of traction with another (and especially on a shrinking network) is that once the programme was complete no new builds would be required for a long time (unless a product proved to be so catastrophically bad that 100 replacements for those to a design harking back nearly 10 years became necessary, which must have only added to the embarrassment!) All new British diesel designs had their teething troubles, some more than others but B-P's products seemed to be very well-regarded. The Hymeks looked like a quality product and may have fared better in their early days if they hadn't been thrashed from new on workings formerly in the care of 'King' class 4-6-0s, and I've read that the B-P Class 25s D7624-59 were generally better finished than the BR works output. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the same were true of their batch of Clayton Class 17s D8588-616 but the power unit choice doomed them along with the rest.

 

Ultimately it came down to circumstances - BRCW also built sound locomotives, even showing Derby in 1958 that scattering ventilation louvres all over the sides of their Type 2s design wasn't necessary or desirable (they eventually took the hint) but BRCW didn't survive either.

[johnofwessex]

On 06/06/2023 at 13:08, peterfgf said:

My understanding is that NBL failed to make the transition from steam locomotive building to diesel locomotives which needed a step change in engineering capabilities (machining, tolerances, material etc).  I think they also failed to design and built the monocoque bodies required for the WR hydraulics which then came in seriously overweight.  I suspect the warranty claims by the WR played a major part in them going out of business.  I've just downloaded but not yet read this:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331114601_Business_History_The_Decline_and_Fall_of_the_North_British_Locomotive_Company_1940-62_Technological_and_Financial_Mismanagement_or_Institutional_Failure

Peterfgf

 

A fascinating read.

 

But clearly the worlds railways became very different places with the introduction of Diesel & Electric traction.

 

Worth making the point that the two big US Diesel Loco builders have no direct link with any of the Steam Loco builders while in the UK only Hunslet seemed to manage the change from Steam to Diesel and they basically only built 'Industrials'

[slilley]

The reasons for NBL going under are all here in this article I wrote for Railways Illustrated back in 2012 the 50th anniversary of their demise.

[Phil Bullock]

Courtesy of Pete Berry … who very kindly lent me his original photo to scan and tinker with… here is a picture of a working I was aware of but did not think I would ever see. My good friend Ian Tipper who was a driver on the bankers at Bromsgrove had noted it passing Bromsgrove in his notes he kindly lent me but I never imagined I would see a photo of it. Pete originally posted it in the Railways in the Three Counties FB group but it most definitely merits wider viewing.

It’s 21st October 1968 and E3044 has been starring at the previous weekends Bristol Open Day. What better choice of motive power to get her back north other than a fellow NBL loco …. D837 Ramilles. Pete saw the cavalcade leaving Gloucester Eastgate station and managed to capture its passing at Tramway Junction.

Please respect photographers copyright.

 

[D860 VICTORIOUS]

A real hen's-teeth pic Phil,thanks for sharing.

A bit OT,but E3044 was an exhibit at Reading open day in June 1971,was there something special about that loco...?

[pete_mcfarlane]

The class 84s were stored for about 5 years in the late 60s and early 70s, so was E3044 the easiest one to retrieve? 

[Halvarras]

I remember reports of E3044 turning up at various open days back then, but never saw it myself. I suppose it represented BR electric traction away from the wires without having to take a working locomotive out of service, plus it would have been kept relatively clean in storage. Since many spotters unfamiliar with the AC electrics struggled to tell them apart (myself included, apart from the 86s), the general public would have been even more clueless and wouldn't have cared anyway.

[Phil Bullock]

I think E3044 had been repainted in BR blue whilst the rest were still in electric blue … so better represented the future.

[MidlandRed]

8 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

I think E3044 had been repainted in BR blue whilst the rest were still in electric blue … so better represented the future.

Surprisingly (I certainly didn’t remember this from the time even though I saw most of the class latterly in store at Bury), E3036 appears to have been repainted rail blue syp, and appeared at an exhibition at Chester with an A4. A photo was posted recently in another thread on RM Web (I can’t remember which - I’ve had a search around - it was at Stafford) which included another AL4 in rail blue, syp, notably so as there was an electric blue loco near it and it was obviously a different colour. 
 

The difference with E3044 was it had the fye and BR arrows, and thus represented the full corporate image on an AC electric, with presumably the added advantage it was effectively not in service so could be spared for open days - I saw it several times this way, and recall it being at the Bristol Bath Road open day (along with steam loco 6201). 

Edited May 8 by MidlandRed

[Halvarras]

7 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

I think E3044 had been repainted in BR blue whilst the rest were still in electric blue … so better represented the future.

 

24 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

Surprisingly (I certainly didn’t remember this from the time even though I saw most of the class latterly in store at Bury), E3036 appears to have been repainted rail blue syp, and appeared at an exhibition at Chester with an A4. A photo was posted recently in another thread on RM Web (AC Electric photos possibly) which included another AL4 in rail blue, syp. 
 

The difference with E3044 was it had the fye and BR arrows, and thus represented the full corporate image on an AC electric, with the added advantage it was effectively not in service so could be spared for open days - I saw it several times this way, and recall it being at the Bristol Bath Road open day (along with steam loco 6201). 

 

As thread drift goes this isn't too bad - at least we're still talking NBL! 😉

[MidlandRed]

Just now, Halvarras said:

 

 

As thread drift goes this isn't too bad - at least we're still talking NBL! 😉

Indeed!! @Phil Bullock photo post was very interesting!!
 

Actually on topic, in the recent book, Changing Engines in the Birmingham and Rugby Districts, which covers dieselisation and electrification during the 50s and 60s in some detail, there is a section on the saga of the NBL Warships used in the Midlands, in the 1967-69 period. It appears they lasted about a month on the Birmingham to Paddington services for which they were allocated, owing to reliability issues and there is a quotation from a senior member of the CME’s team, referring to their discovery that these locos consumed fluids of various types in copious quantities!! They remained on some freight/parcels duties until 1969. The WR seemed to continue to use them, however on the Paddington/ Worcester/Hereford trains - presumably the WR was more used to their idiosyncrasies! 

[Phil Bullock]

3 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

Indeed!! @Phil Bullock photo post was very interesting!!
 

Actually on topic, in the recent book, Changing Engines in the Birmingham and Rugby Districts, which covers dieselisation and electrification during the 50s and 60s in some detail, there is a section on the saga of the NBL Warships used in the Midlands, in the 1967-69 period. It appears they lasted about a month on the Birmingham to Paddington services for which they were allocated, owing to reliability issues and there is a quotation from a senior member of the CME’s team, referring to their discovery that these locos consumed fluids of various types in copious quantities!! They remained on some freight/parcels duties until 1969. The WR seemed to continue to use them, however on the Paddington/ Worcester/Hereford trains - presumably the WR was more used to their idiosyncrasies! 

And they continued to arrive in the West Midlands … on the two van trains from Worcester, the Sunday only loco hauled class 2 from Hereford and on workings from the South West via Gloucester. Not that common on the latter though, and they shared the Worcester/Hereford turns with Hymeks. These were all out and back turns, with no fill in work in the West Midlands that I am aware of…. 

[MidlandRed]

On 08/05/2024 at 06:41, Phil Bullock said:

And they continued to arrive in the West Midlands … on the two van trains from Worcester, the Sunday only loco hauled class 2 from Hereford and on workings from the South West via Gloucester. Not that common on the latter though, and they shared the Worcester/Hereford turns with Hymeks. These were all out and back turns, with no fill in work in the West Midlands that I am aware of…. 

For those that don’t have the Changing Engines book (Michael Hollick), the workings listed are:-

 

1. From 2/10/67 - six trains each day (weekdays) and four Sundays, Birmingham to Paddington via High Wycombe - diverted to Marylebone 15/10 to 19/11 - 8 coach trains. 
2. 1A24 0725 Shrewsbury to Euston (to Wolverhampton) and 1J24 return (from Wolverhampton). Balancing workings 3V34 2250 Salop to Didcot parcels and 3M14 2135 Kensington to Birkenhead milk (to Salop).

3. 8J05 0903 SX Bescot to Coton Hill and Leamington to Nuneaton parcels diagram.

4. Various freights in the areas between Bescot - Banbury; Banbury to High Wycombe, Bletchington, Oxford and Reading West junction. 
5. 3M01 Southampton to Wellington parcels, which then formed 3K26 1250 Wellington to Crewe (via Salop), returning light to Bescot.

 

In terms of their performance, the Regional C.M and E.E wrote in a report to the Board “When these locomotives came into the region, it was soon found out they were totally unreliable, consuming vast quantities of lubricating oils of various kinds and having a high casualty rate with a consequence they were withdrawn from passenger traffic after only six weeks use”. 
 

What was a spotter’s dream come true was clearly something of an operational nightmare. It would be interesting if there was official data from their earlier life - they had been declared as surplus and available for transfer in the first National Traction Plan in the mid 60s. 

[Phil Bullock]

14 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

For those that don’t have the Changing Engines book (Michael Hollick), the workings listed are:-

 

1. From 2/10/67 - six trains each day (weekdays) and four Sundays, Birmingham to Paddington via High Wycombe - diverted to Marylebone 15/10 to 19/11 - 8 coach trains. 
2. 1A24 0725 Shrewsbury to Euston (to Wolverhampton) and 1J24 return (from Wolverhampton). Balancing workings 3V34 2250 Salop to Didcot parcels and 3M14 2135 Kensington to Birkenhead milk (to Salop).

3. 8J05 0903 SX Bescot to Coton Hill and Leamington to Nuneaton parcels diagram.

4. Various freights in the areas between Bescot - Banbury; Banbury to High Wycombe, Bletchington, Oxford and Reading West junction. 
5. 3M01 Southampton to Wellington parcels, which then formed 3K26 1250 Wellington to Crewe (via Salop), returning light to Bescot.

 

In terms of their performance, the Regional C.M and E.E wrote in a report to the Board “When these locomotives came into the region, it was soon found out they were totally unreliable, consuming vast quantities of lubricating oils of various kinds and having a high casualty rate with a consequence they were withdrawn from passenger traffic after only six weeks use”. 
 

What was a spotter’s dream come true was clearly something of an operational nightmare. It would be interesting if there was official data from their earlier life - they had been declared as surplus and available for transfer in the first National Traction Plan in the mid 60s. 

Very informative! Not many pictures of them in the area but there is this video …. 
 

Strongbow at New Street

 

No date on the video but she was the first and only one I ever saw at BNS …. Would love to think it was the same day! 
 

Also interesting that those WM working didn’t integrate with Worcester area workings although they didn’t appear there until Spring 68. They were not unknown up and down the Lickey in addition to the OWW

route… 

 

It’s also worth remembering that despite their issues 30 of the class of 33 were in traffic until the spring of 1971 … only 6 months before the final 16 were switched off at the beginning of October. 

 

Fascinating times! 

 

 

[Phil Bullock]

And here’s 845 Sprightly 28th August 1971 at BNS on 0800 SO Paignton to Liverpool. Photo linked courtesy of Alistair Ness - many thanks!

 

 D845 Sprightly at BNS
 

 

[MidlandRed]

On 11/05/2024 at 14:02, Phil Bullock said:

Very informative! Not many pictures of them in the area but there is this video …. 
 

Strongbow at New Street

 

No date on the video but she was the first and only one I ever saw at BNS …. Would love to think it was the same day! 
 

Also interesting that those WM working didn’t integrate with Worcester area workings although they didn’t appear there until Spring 68. They were not unknown up and down the Lickey in addition to the OWW

route… 

 

It’s also worth remembering that despite their issues 30 of the class of 33 were in traffic until the spring of 1971 … only 6 months before the final 16 were switched off at the beginning of October. 

 

Fascinating times! 

 

 

Great photo and video!! 
 

1M12 was, I think a morning Paddington to BNS - it must have been during the 6 week period they were rostered to those services. I would wager that when they were removed from that, they eventually went to the Worcester services (I also recall two of the withdrawn ones shorn of nameplates parked up at OOC, 1968/69). 
 

Not sure where the locos from 1M87 were taken for stabling/fuel/

inspections but Bescot and Tyseley were the only places which they seemed to go to in the 1967 period - as Bescot was trained on them they possibly went there (via the Soho Road route?). 
 

Based on Michael Hollick’s book, it appears the Warship duties were taken over by Brush Type 4s. 
 

I can recommend highly that book - there is a wealth of information and detail and a lot of real gems of information in it - including the introduction of Westerns on to Paddington to Birkenhead, and their replacement by Brush Type 4s (seemingly maintained by OOC on behalf of LMR after the 1963 boundary changes which brought the route north of Banbury into the LMR, and a similar process seems to have occurred with the subsequent Warships). 
 

The lack of integration is perhaps not surprising, and the time taken to achieve it - an earlier example is the Scunthorpe to South Wales steel trains, initially dieselised using pairs of Brush type 2s, with a Western taking over at Washwood Heath. Subsequently a Brush Type 4 (ER) took the train to Saltley, replaced by a Brush Type 4 (WR) for the rest of the journey to S Wales. Eventually the WR loco ran throughout. Although this seems a little bonkers 🤣 It seems one of the issues with integration of inter regional Brush 4 workings was the need for WR AW system to be fitted (this caused a delay to their introduction on Paddington to Birkenhead as the locos initially allocated were required to be retro fitted before they could be used). Just one example of the trails and tribulations of creating an integrated national rail network!! 

Edited May 13 by MidlandRed

[Phil Bullock]

Same with the loco off 1M22 …. Was there a turn round in BNS ? Wonder what round trip fuel range would be … got to be more than a Bristol - BNS round trip surely! But on this occasion, 28th August …,and thanks to Steve Harrod and Mark Alden for the gen … D845 plainly found the climb up the Lickey too strenuous, she was OEO from Blackwell and was failed on arrival at BNS. She found someone who knew her foibles somewhere in Brum as she worked back south at 19.20 on 1V95 to Cardiff. The end was coming though … in September D857 came up on 1S56 the Stirling motorail on 6th , going back south on 4V09 Nottingham vans the next morning, and on 23rd D853 was on 5B73 Malago Vale vans up to Worcester followed by 6M20 vans to BNS, returning south in the diagram on 4V03 vans from Curzon Street. That was the last NBL Warship in Brum that I know of… 
 

Pretty sure it was the last week of October … school half term … I saw Strongbow at BNS. It was D840/48 that were laid up at OOC, both with fire damage. The other early withdrawal, D863, died at Laira. 
 

And yes that sounds logical that they took up the Worcester-Hereford turns after they finished on the Birmingham turns. We were always at the bottom of the class 1 motive power list!