NBL Warship’s - were they really that bad?

[TravisM]

I know NBL diesels had a bad rap whilst with BR, but we’re they really as bad as people have said and written about?  Did they really have a reputation of poor workmanship/build quality, or was it a case of when NBL closed it’s doors, spares became problematic, or a combination of the two?  Just be interested to hear what people think.

[johnofwessex]

I believe that there were two major issues, firstly that as a locomotive builder NBL was finding it difficult to attract and retain staff in what was perceived to be a dying industry, and that as it or its workers could not learn metric all dimensions were  converted to imperial with a resultant loss in quality

[turbos]

NBL had multiple problems, the obvious ones were its equipment was all in Imperial measurement but it was needed to produce the MAN diesel engine to precise metric measurements, the order was at a fixed price for each unit which was financially disastrous during a time of high inflation and also very poor industrial relations. There were other problems as well but basically NBL never properly transitioned from steam locomotive production to diesel locomotive production.

 

Brian.

[Michael Edge]

NBL did build a lot of relatively much more successful industrial diesels, many of which had MAN engines - although I don't know whether these were bought in or licence built by them.

[Mallard60022]

NO idea about the reasons but yes, they were awful. The Warships were banned from working the Waterloo Exeter routes after just a few attempts.

Phil

[russ p]

7 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

NBL did build a lot of relatively much more successful industrial diesels, many of which had MAN engines - although I don't know whether these were bought in or licence built by them.

 

There is an 0-4-0 still dumped at Snailwell, not sure when it was used . Be nice if it got saved 

[D860 VICTORIOUS]

41 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

NO idea about the reasons but yes, they were awful. The Warships were banned from working the Waterloo Exeter routes after just a few attempts.

Phil

Awful-really??

I'm fairly sure the 43's were not used on the Waterloo-Exeter route to simplify crew training/knowledge.

The 43's,like every other diesel class,had faults and were not perfect,and as has been repeated many times,at the time of their withdrawal BR had more diesels than it needed.

I can recall the 43's in their last year of operation,still in front-line service,with several of them having been re-instated to traffic,and outwardly looking very smart.

Generalisations like "awful" remind me of the same tag being given to the 22's for years on end,when in fact their availability level was pretty good,and I think that particular myth was put to bed some time ago.

Neil.

[Ian Hargrave]

I recall them from their introduction in 1960 at Temple Meads .They were in everyday use on WR West of England trains and this included prestige expresses ,”The Bristolian “ being one. IIRC problems arose in a big way when they took charge of Waterloo - Exeter services a few years later.Before that,I cannot remember their condition causing obvious embarrassment ,although this is just my own observation.

[2E Sub Shed]

6 hours ago, D860 VICTORIOUS said:

 

I'm fairly sure the 43's were not used on the Waterloo-Exeter route to simplify crew training/knowledge.

The fact that only "42's" were used Waterloo - Exeter, is stated in "Hydraulic V Electric" by David N. Clough, although  he does not state the reason.

Edited January 31, 2023 by 2E Sub Shed
Add missed text

[Phil Bullock]

I have said this before but it’s worth repeating… 

 

NBL carried the can for all the major components in their Warship builds …. Loco, engine and transmission.

 

Swindon only carried the can for their loco builds …. Their Maybach engines came from Bristol Siddeley and the Mekydro transmissions from Stone, meaning that the builders had support with any issues that might arise.

 

Am sure this contributed to NBLs problems …. Their warships were at their nadir in 67, many were tatty unloved and in store or seeking redeployment. The withdrawal of D840/8 with fire damage and D863 (lack of spares IIRC) would have reduced pressure and put more spares in to the pool. 
 

Most were then put through works as they were needed back in traffic due to lack of availability of suitable replacements and were therefore paradoxically smarter than many Swindon built locos which probably didn’t need as many works visits. 
 

Through the summer of 71 the majority of the class were still in traffic and were switched off at the end of September when 33s took over on the Exeter route, releasing Swindon built locos to replace them. They were still on Class 1 workings including off region to BNS via Gloucester and even to Crewe on a motorail . 
 

They did suffer failures … exhaust manifold failures and fires were prominent issues… and has been alluded to NBL had material and dimensional challenges. But when fighting fit they were capable machines. 
 

I remember an evening return from London to Worcester up the Cotswolds main line behind D861….I window hung from the front droplight all the way from Oxford …. Hell fire performance, happy days.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Phil Bullock

[TravisM]

39 minutes ago, 2E Sub Shed said:

The fact that only "42's" were used Waterloo - Exeter, is stated in "Hydraulic V Electric" by David N. Clough, although  he does not state the reason.

Train crew familiarity 

[brushman47544]

Wasn’t another major issue with the 43s that they smoked a lot, filling the cabs with fumes. This was why the two round holes were drilled just above the buffer beams, for ventilation.

[ikcdab]

When referring to North British warship, I always think of the D600 class.

Are we all talking about the same locomotives?

[Phil Bullock]

49 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

Wasn’t another major issue with the 43s that they smoked a lot, filling the cabs with fumes. This was why the two round holes were drilled just above the buffer beams, for ventilation.

Exhaust manifold failure due to use of substandard materials was the key issue IIRC

[Phil Bullock]

18 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

When referring to North British warship, I always think of the D600 class.

Are we all talking about the same locomotives?

Ah no …. D833-65 largely on this thread

[russ p]

Can anyone remember if they sounded much different to the 42s , obviously with voith transmission wouldn't be changing gear 

[Phil Bullock]

41 minutes ago, russ p said:

Can anyone remember if they sounded much different to the 42s , obviously with voith transmission wouldn't be changing gear 

I ought to remember Russ saw enough of them! But actually can’t……

[Halvarras]

Interestingly if you add the 5 NBL D600s to the 33 NBL D800s you get 38 NBL Warships in total, the same number of Warships as turned out by Swindon. Was this by accident or design? It's almost as if D866-70 were added to Swindon's build to counter the five D600s and ensure Swindon didn't play second fiddle to Glasgow in the Warship stakes - supported by the scramble to come up with five additional names beginning with 'Z'!  (Did it matter? After all the first three weren't in alphabetical order......)

The Ian Allan ABC 1960/61 edition, issued during Warship construction and before D866-70 had been announced, had D864 as 'Zealous' and D865 as 'Zephyr'.

4 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

I ought to remember Russ saw enough of them! But actually can’t……

I have the same problem now Phil - saw them every day I went lineside but can't remember now. However I'm sure they did sound different.......I think the 43s had a softer, more pulsing sound than the 42s which had that typical Maybach hard-edged roar. Reminds me that in early 1973, when I could still remember what the NBLs sounded Iike but hadn't heard one for well over a year, I was sitting in a train in Reading station with the window open when I heard that still familiar NBL sound rapidly approaching.......what on earth?........and a London-bound Blue Pullman swept past! Oh yes of course, I'd forgotten all about those😀!

[Phil Bullock]

3 hours ago, Halvarras said:

Interestingly if you add the 5 NBL D600s to the 33 NBL D800s you get 38 NBL Warships in total, the same number of Warships as turned out by Swindon. Was this by accident or design? It's almost as if D866-70 were added to Swindon's build to counter the five D600s and ensure Swindon didn't play second fiddle to Glasgow in the Warship stakes - supported by the scramble to come up with five additional names beginning with 'Z'!  (Did it matter? After all the first three weren't in alphabetical order......)

The Ian Allan ABC 1960/61 edition, issued during Warship construction and before D866-70 had been announced, had D864 as 'Zealous' and D865 as 'Zephyr'.

I have the same problem now Phil - saw them every day I went lineside but can't remember now. However I'm sure they did sound different.......I think the 43s had a softer, more pulsing sound than the 42s which had that typical Maybach hard-edged roar. Reminds me that in early 1973, when I could still remember what the NBLs sounded Iike but hadn't heard one for well over a year, I was sitting in a train in Reading station with the window open when I heard that still familiar NBL sound rapidly approaching.......what on earth?........and a London-bound Blue Pullman swept past! Oh yes of course, I'd forgotten all about those😀!

Think you are right about the engine sound… that’s certainly the way the Howes sound files we have sound … although they come from a German 218 IIRC. Exhaust and turbo arrangements together with transmissions will also alter the audio of course.

 

IIRC The exhaust manifold issues didn’t just produce smoke in the cabs … they also resulted in turbo pressure loss resulting in over fuelling creating more smoke… and also washing away of cylinder/piston lubricant, upper end lubrication being a problem to which the MAN diesels were reputedly prone without adding to the issue.

 

But they didn’t do so badly, 30 of the 33 lasting until 1971 with more than half of those still in traffic at the end in October 71.

[BrushVeteran]

I had one or two cab rides in the NBL Warships when they were doing the Padd-Worcester's as a friend of my parents was a driver at Oxford.

On one memorable trip with D859 in early 1971,  I remember walking through the engine room going around the Didcot avoider and it scared the s**t out of me as the manifolds were glowing almost white and the force of the cold air being blown in through the bodyside grilles was pushing you towards the power unit. By the time we had reached Southall the leading cab had filled with smoke from the transmission............whch it had been booked off for several times in the defect repair book................and was failed yet again at Padd. I don't think it ever ran again after this trip.

The return journey home to Oxford was with D1672 and apart from the engine-room being awash with water from the CWA bolier, I was able to hear what was being said to me without shouting, as had been the case in D859, although in its defence it was run down and being thrashed!

The comments from my 'uncle' and his secondman would probably get me banned if I was to repeat them on here!

[D860 VICTORIOUS]

Contrary to other's memories posted above,I seem to remember the 43's having a throatier "growl" compared to the 42's,however,it's now a looooong time ago....

As is known,BR needed to resurrect some stored 43's,which were given overhauls at Swindon,in 1970 IIRC.

Hence some of these fortunate loco's were still in decent nick in 1971,and what a fine sight they were.

The last two I saw in service were on 18th September 1971,while at the joint BR/GWS Didcot open day.

842 Royal Oak on the 14.15 Worcester-Paddington,and 855 Triumph on the 15.15 Paddington-Hereford.

Many years later,my mate miraculously found a colour print of 855 on that very service,as she'd crossed onto the Didcot avoider,and,judging by the thick plume of black exhaust,power had then been applied.

A photo,and a memory,to treasure...

Neil

[Phil Bullock]

59 minutes ago, D860 VICTORIOUS said:

Contrary to other's memories posted above,I seem to remember the 43's having a throatier "growl" compared to the 42's,however,it's now a looooong time ago....

As is known,BR needed to resurrect some stored 43's,which were given overhauls at Swindon,in 1970 IIRC.

Hence some of these fortunate loco's were still in decent nick in 1971,and what a fine sight they were.

The last two I saw in service were on 18th September 1971,while at the joint BR/GWS Didcot open day.

842 Royal Oak on the 14.15 Worcester-Paddington,and 855 Triumph on the 15.15 Paddington-Hereford.

Many years later,my mate miraculously found a colour print of 855 on that very service,as she'd crossed onto the Didcot avoider,and,judging by the thick plume of black exhaust,power had then been applied.

A photo,and a memory,to treasure...

Neil

Great memories Neil! They were on the Worcester trains until the end of the month, so you were lucky to catch them at that time 

[Halvarras]

2 hours ago, D860 VICTORIOUS said:

 

As is known,BR needed to resurrect some stored 43's,which were given overhauls at Swindon,in 1970 IIRC.

Hence some of these fortunate loco's were still in decent nick in 1971,and what a fine sight they were.

 

Indeed, the last two overhauls were 861 released 8/3/71 and 835 released 8/4/71 so no wonder they were still in good nick that summer.......and at withdrawal!

 

It was no surprise that those 43s which survived past the March & May 71 culls were the most recent overhauls. So why didn't this logic apply to the Class 22s? Overhauls of these Type 2s ceased at the end of 1967 and recommenced over 2 years later when 6308/19/26/30/38/48/52/56 were put through works, so when the final rundown started one would have expected these eight to be the last survivors - yet only 6338 of this batch made it into the final four. Perhaps 6319, belatedly released in June 1971 and withdrawn exactly 3 months later, suggested all was not well with these final overhauls. If the Class was known to have a very limited future perhaps engine hours were not reset?

[Phil Bullock]

3 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

 

Indeed, the last two overhauls were 861 released 8/3/71 and 835 released 8/4/71 so no wonder they were still in good nick that summer.......and at withdrawal!

 

It was no surprise that those 43s which survived past the March & May 71 culls were the most recent overhauls. So why didn't this logic apply to the Class 22s? Overhauls of these Type 2s ceased at the end of 1967 and recommenced over 2 years later when 6308/19/26/30/38/48/52/56 were put through works, so when the final rundown started one would have expected these eight to be the last survivors - yet only 6338 of this batch made it into the final four. Perhaps 6319, belatedly released in June 1971 and withdrawn exactly 3 months later, suggested all was not well with these final overhauls. If the Class was known to have a very limited future perhaps engine hours were not reset?

Yes that is strange! Perhaps their recent overhauls paradoxically  made them more attractive Christmas trees? There were plainly attempts to get the operational survivors worth saving down to the West Country…. D6331/6/56 travelled down in convoy from Bristol in May 71 but unfortunately D6331 caught fire and was dumped at Exeter and never saw further use.

[Mike_Walker]

On 08/03/2023 at 02:31, Halvarras said:

Interestingly if you add the 5 NBL D600s to the 33 NBL D800s you get 38 NBL Warships in total, the same number of Warships as turned out by Swindon. Was this by accident or design? It's almost as if D866-70 were added to Swindon's build to counter the five D600s and ensure Swindon didn't play second fiddle to Glasgow in the Warship stakes - supported by the scramble to come up with five additional names beginning with 'Z'!  (Did it matter? After all the first three weren't in alphabetical order......)

The Ian Allan ABC 1960/61 edition, issued during Warship construction and before D866-70 had been announced, had D864 as 'Zealous' and D865 as 'Zephyr'.

I have the same problem now Phil - saw them every day I went lineside but can't remember now. However I'm sure they did sound different.......I think the 43s had a softer, more pulsing sound than the 42s which had that typical Maybach hard-edged roar. Reminds me that in early 1973, when I could still remember what the NBLs sounded Iike but hadn't heard one for well over a year, I was sitting in a train in Reading station with the window open when I heard that still familiar NBL sound rapidly approaching.......what on earth?........and a London-bound Blue Pullman swept past! Oh yes of course, I'd forgotten all about those😀!

I've always understood that there was an "understanding" that NBL would get a follow on order after the D600 batch but that these were subsequently changed to the Swindon design but with NBL MAN and Voith transmissions.  Not sure if the final five Swindon ones were for "levelling up" but they were ordered late after the names had been originally allocated to the entire class.  In order to keep the strict alphabetical order some reallocation of names on the last NBL examples (not actually built by then) was required.  The WR were lucky we had such a large Navy back then with plenty of "Zs" to choose from!