Building a Gresley D.43 Full Brake

[BetweenTheTunnels]

Hi all,

I have acquired some etches from Worsley Works for a D43 Full brake, which will be my first scratchbuilt/etch brass carriage kit.  The main roof I think I have the skills to deal with, but i wondered, how people created the unique profile to the Gresley roof ends that seem to slope in all directions!  Is there an established method for this?  If not, I am thinking that trying to create an end profile in CAD and 3D printing it, which once sanded and painted could likely achieve the correct look?

 

Any thoughts/advice are welcomed.

Richie

Edited February 11, 2023 by Rochdale Road
Title Change

[Mallard60022]

Replace with a Comet or MJT one; far better to try that simple Plastic part IMO. Also easy to drill etc and it/they have a slightly 'fabric looking' surface.

I might have one spare somewhere, but really can't remember.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

Should have said that once you have one of these and it works, maybe you can copy that profile for your Printer? Know idea how that works.

P

[BetweenTheTunnels]

Hi Phil,

Sorry I should have said this isnt 4mm!  Its a dabble with 3mm Scale.

 

Also looking at the Wizard Models website the Comet roofs are 'out of stock' and the text implies its permanent, although i think the MJT castings may still be available. I assume these are the ones your talking about - https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2813.php - might be worth acquring a set of those for the minimal cost and using a base template.

 

Richie

[Bucoops]

In my experience (4mm) the Worsley ends aren't quite the right shape to suit MJT anyway. 

 

Worsley laid over MJT:

 

[BetweenTheTunnels]

Thanks for that Rich.  Sorry this is me being thick... im struggling to work out what im looking at in the picture. Im assuming the silver bit just visible is an MJT roof end?  Is the golden section on top of that a Worsley roof?  I've not had a set of Worsley etches before .. and the ones i've got (well sides and end, no floor/roof) are en route.

 

Richie

[TT-Pete]

7 hours ago, Rochdale Road said:

Sorry I should have said this isnt 4mm!  Its a dabble with 3mm Scale.

 

The old-skool method I have seen and tried in 3mm is to have the coach (or loco) body complete without the roof. Taking  a piece of soft balsa wood gradually shape it down with knife, file and sandpaper until you have one end to the desired profile. Cut to the desired length and make a mould of it in rubber. Get a 2-part resin and cast as many as you need (making a second or third mould from the master speeds production if you need lots). Then measure up against the aluminium extrusion that Worsley provide and cut to appropriate length. Fix in place using 2-part Araldite expoxy.

 

[Bucoops]

4 minutes ago, Rochdale Road said:

Thanks for that Rich.  Sorry this is me being thick... im struggling to work out what im looking at in the picture. Im assuming the silver bit just visible is an MJT roof end?  Is the golden section on top of that a Worsley roof?  I've not had a set of Worsley etches before .. and the ones i've got (well sides and end, no floor/roof) are en route.

 

Richie

 

No problem - both are ends, not the roof.  Left to right - RDEB, MJT, Worsley:

 

 

 

[BetweenTheTunnels]

2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

No problem - both are ends, not the roof.  Left to right - RDEB, MJT, Worsley:

 

 

Hi Rich,

Ah I get it now!  Thanks for the further explanation - said i was being thick!  I see what you mean about the different profiles.  The MJT looks flatter, while the RDEB looks taller and less rounded?  I take it one is reasonably right and the other two are wrong .. or is it that they are different coach designs and hence are slightly different? Do you know?

 

 

2 hours ago, TT-Pete said:

 

The old-skool method I have seen and tried in 3mm is to have the coach (or loco) body complete without the roof. Taking  a piece of soft balsa wood gradually shape it down with knife, file and sandpaper until you have one end to the desired profile. Cut to the desired length and make a mould of it in rubber. Get a 2-part resin and cast as many as you need (making a second or third mould from the master speeds production if you need lots). Then measure up against the aluminium extrusion that Worsley provide and cut to appropriate length. Fix in place using 2-part Araldite expoxy.

 

 

Pete,

Thanks for that.  I can see this is going to be a case of learning new skills beyond those i expected to learn!  No bad thing, and that is an interesting way forward.  Potentially (longer-term) im going to need quite a few, should the layout progress beyond the trial/error 'dipping ones toe in the water' so to speak, so working on the principal you've suggested sounds a good starting practice.  I may well need to read up on resin casting now!  I wonder if it is feasible to do the entire roof that way or whether the resin would bend (or go banana shape) during curing, although logically if its in a mould may be it wouldnt.  Hmm, interesting throughts. Thank you.

 

Im not near any of the preserved Gresley coaches to go look at one, but does anyone happen to know (or can suggest where to look) over what kind of distance, im guessing around 6ft, the end part of the roof curves over? Ie on a 61'6" coach, is 49'6" the middle normal style roof and the remaining 12' (well 6' as there is one at each end) is the end dome?

 

EDIT: Just had a search through the digital Rly Modeller archive to see if they've printed any drawings of Gresley stock in the past but it doesnt look like they have.

 

Richie

Edited February 7, 2023 by Rochdale Road

[Bucoops]

16 minutes ago, Rochdale Road said:

 

Hi Rich,

Ah I get it now!  Thanks for the further explanation - said i was being thick!  I see what you mean about the different profiles.  The MJT looks flatter, while the RDEB looks taller and less rounded?  I take it one is reasonably right and the other two are wrong .. or is it that they are different coach designs and hence are slightly different? Do you know?

 

 

The RDEB one is the correct shape but etched oversize, the MJT is most accurate, and the Worsley seems to be closest to the drawing in the Campling book (Historic carriage drawings).

[MikeTrice]

Try looking through this topic on Western Thunder:

https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/threads/gresley-carriages-in-detail.9809/

[Fen End Pit]

I went through a very similar process with a Comet Thompson full-brake. The roof profile was per some drawing on a thread about Gresley coaches on Western Thunder.

https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/threads/gresley-carriages-in-detail.9809/

I ended up 3d printing a roof because the Comet one didn't really match the LNER being a sort of cross between a Midland and GWR carriage roof.

 

 

I also remodeled and printed the ends  to match the new profile.

 

I'm fairly happy with the result now.

 

 

Trying to pluck up the courage to glaze it next and decide whether it gets lining.

David

Edited February 7, 2023 by Fen End Pit

[BetweenTheTunnels]

32 minutes ago, MikeTrice said:

Try looking through this topic on Western Thunder:

https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/threads/gresley-carriages-in-detail.9809/

 

Mike,

What a wonderful resource you have built up - many thanks for providing the link.  If i've read the drawings right - using one that gives a side sectional view of a guards compartment, these figures added us should give me the distance I want?  Hope its ok to post this snapshot of the image, i will remove it if you wish.

 

 

Which I make the be a decrease from roof top of 9 7/8" .... over a length of 43 3/4".  Do you agree i've got that right?

 

Richie

Edited February 7, 2023 by Rochdale Road

[TT-Pete]

10 hours ago, Rochdale Road said:

I may well need to read up on resin casting now!  I wonder if it is feasible to do the entire roof that way or whether the resin would bend (or go banana shape) during curing, although logically if its in a mould may be it wouldnt.  Hmm, interesting throughts. Thank you.

 

Moldsil for making moulds: https://www.elink.co.in/products/specialty-products/silicon-rubber-products/moldsil-100-high-performance-silicone-rubber-mold-making/

EasyFlo 60 casting resin: https://polytek.com/products/easyflo-60-liquid-plastic

 

Casting is not a cheap option so although you could make a whole roof out of it you might be better going with the Worseley extrusions which alreay have the cantrail and would sit neatly on the body side and only cast the ends. The only time I got bending or warping was when I started handling castings before they were fully cured, I found leaving them on a flat board in the airing cupboard for a few days was the best way to ensure they were properly hardened. Having made various bit's and pieces over the years the biggest problem I found was air bubbles that form during mixing, this is why professional setups do resing casting in a vacuum chamber. Not so much of a problem for a solid object, but can ruin fine detail like when I tried making Tri-ang presflo wagon body copies. Plus the moulds degrade with each casting, the more detail, the quicker the degradation. Good luck if you try it, it's not difficult and can be very rewarding.

[MikeTrice]

This drawing from that thread might be easier.

[Bucoops]

For the avoidance of doubt, MJT = @MikeTrice 😉

[MikeTrice]

12 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

For the avoidance of doubt, MJT = @MikeTrice 😉

Not any more.

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, MikeTrice said:

Not any more.

 

Well, you may not supply the range anymore, but it was your creation.

[MikeTrice]

That is true however in fairness Dart have extended it.

[BetweenTheTunnels]

4 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

This drawing from that thread might be easier.

 

Mike,

Thanks for that ... thats definatively a better option, i'd missed that somehow.  Do you happen to have a drawing that shows a cross section, 90 degrees to that one?  I cannot see one in the thread at all.

Richie

[MikeTrice]

Not as such. The drawing that follows that one specifies the various cross section ellipses. Scroll down further and there is an annotated drawing showing which ellipse goes where.

[BetweenTheTunnels]

 

Evening all, the etch arrived from Worsley Works this afternoon, very nice.  One query for those who have scratchbuilt from Worlsey etches before. There appears to be a break (with tabs) between the top part of the bodyside panelling and the bottom.  Im assuming this is to make creating the tumbleholme easier, but am I correct in thinking that the bottom of each side is separated from the top and then soldered back, or do they remain connected?

 

 

I know it could be a personal preference of how people build things, but i'd appreciate a bit of guidance from those who have done these coaches before.

 

Cheers

Richie

[Bucoops]

43 minutes ago, Rochdale Road said:

 

Evening all, the etch arrived from Worsley Works this afternoon, very nice.  One query for those who have scratchbuilt from Worlsey etches before. There appears to be a break (with tabs) between the top part of the bodyside panelling and the bottom.  Im assuming this is to make creating the tumbleholme easier, but am I correct in thinking that the bottom of each side is separated from the top and then soldered back, or do they remain connected?

 

 

I know it could be a personal preference of how people build things, but i'd appreciate a bit of guidance from those who have done these coaches before.

 

Cheers

Richie

 

The lower half separates, and is then overlapped on the upper half and soldered in place. It helps with the slight step in at that point:

 

[doilum]

Car body filler. Assuming you have preformed over length blank roof sections, fill one end solid and when hard sand/ file into shape. The lower edge can be shaped to match the coach end using a Dremel or drawing over a half round file.  When happy, trim the other end and repeat. 

Sticking 80 and 120 grade Emery cloth to a scap of wood provides low cost abrasive tools.

[BetweenTheTunnels]

Thanks guys, much appreciated.