Majorbrough -- space, Minories, and Hornby TT track

[NCB]

17 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

Cheers, thank you. There are always things that occur to you just after you've finished something and this is no exception. First of all, the revised plan below is extended to 250cm in order to put a length of straight track between the turnouts at the entrance to the storage roads. This means than any loco that needs to be reversed at this point is not brought to a halt across two (possibly) dead frog points. After a bit of consideration, I've added two sets of loco storage roads at the top and bottom of the fiddle yard. You probably wouldn't need both, so they're really an either/or choice (although let's face it, you can never have too much space for stock). Both options mean that light engines can run to the 'shed' without having to go round the return loop. It might be worth keeping the the link off the return loop to the fiddle yard just in case, but I'm not sure now if it's really necessary.  If you do get rid of the link from the return loop, you'd obviously have more space for storage roads. Maybe to store special stock, like a breakdown crane or a snow plough. Personally, I'd opt to have the loco sidings at the top of the yard (as viewed), but  having them at the bottom makes them more accessible for handling. Incidentally, I think the return loop on its own can hold three full trains depending on how it's wired up, but that sort of thing is above my pay grade.

 

 

 

Locos; can't have too  much space for them 🙂  Think A1/A3/A4;  Duchess, Black 5; shunters etc etc            

[Flying Pig]

18 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

Cheers, thank you. There are always things that occur to you just after you've finished something and this is no exception. First of all, the revised plan below is extended to 250cm in order to put a length of straight track between the turnouts at the entrance to the storage roads. This means than any loco that needs to be reversed at this point is not brought to a halt across two (possibly) dead frog points. After a bit of consideration, I've added two sets of loco storage roads at the top and bottom of the fiddle yard. You probably wouldn't need both, so they're really an either/or choice (although let's face it, you can never have too much space for stock). Both options mean that light engines can run to the 'shed' without having to go round the return loop. It might be worth keeping the the link off the return loop to the fiddle yard just in case, but I'm not sure now if it's really necessary.  If you do get rid of the link from the return loop, you'd obviously have more space for storage roads. Maybe to store special stock, like a breakdown crane or a snow plough. Personally, I'd opt to have the loco sidings at the top of the yard (as viewed), but  having them at the bottom makes them more accessible for handling. Incidentally, I think the return loop on its own can hold three full trains depending on how it's wired up, but that sort of thing is above my pay grade.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure the reverse loop adds anything to a traditional fiddle yard once you get to this level of complexity.  You can use a turntable at the dead end or loco cassettes to release and turn locos in much less space.

[NCB]

40 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

 

I'm not sure the reverse loop adds anything to a traditional fiddle yard once you get to this level of complexity.  You can use a turntable at the dead end or loco cassettes to release and turn locos in much less space.

My 3mm layout uses cassettes. Never again. For a home layout I want sit down in comfort and operate at a distance, not leap around shuffling things. And I doubt the much less space; for the storage it provides this plan is pretty efficient.  

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

 

I'm not sure the reverse loop adds anything to a traditional fiddle yard once you get to this level of complexity.  You can use a turntable at the dead end or loco cassettes to release and turn locos in much less space.

Hi Simon.  It does gives the additional option of ‘out and back’ running on occasions if desired, perhaps for a light or informal ‘one person’ session or even if only for test running.  Where it doesn’t take up too much extra space then it’s worth considering, as long as wiring is something you’re happy to tackle.  Just a thought, Keith.

[melmoth]

17 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

 

I'm not sure the reverse loop adds anything to a traditional fiddle yard once you get to this level of complexity.  You can use a turntable at the dead end or loco cassettes to release and turn locos in much less space.

 

What's available in TT for a turntable? I assume there must be something from one of the European manufacturers. The Peco HOm one is probably a bit too short.

[Hobby]

The Peco one is ok for shorter locos but no good for the Pacifics. Yes there is a Continental one, Roco, but it's not cheap. The thread on the Hornby TT forum would seem to suggest that most people were looking at extending the Peco one or lengthening one of the larger N ones. There's also the old Triang one!

[Flying Pig]

35 minutes ago, melmoth said:

 

What's available in TT for a turntable? I assume there must be something from one of the European manufacturers. The Peco HOm one is probably a bit too short.

 

Roco do one, but it looks like it would be cheaper to buy a bigger house to accommodate the return loop.

[NCB]

8 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

What's available in TT for a turntable? I assume there must be something from one of the European manufacturers. The Peco HOm one is probably a bit too short.

SK when asked said it would  be  nice.  

[D9020 Nimbus]

A very interesting thread.

 

Just some points to raise — in the context of main line rather than suburban services it isn't necessary for all platforms to be capable of handling the same length of train. This might give additional room for the station building. There are other CJF plans for your type of situation as well as Minories.

 

A station — even in a busy town or city — doesn't necessarily require a large number of platforms. Bath (Green Park) had only two, although with carriage sidings between them. I don't think A3s got there, but Hornby are doing a 9F…

 

An urban station in a cramped location would often make use of more complex pointwork. Minories uses only standard left and right hand points. Tillig have a double slip and a scissors crossing in their Modellgleis range.

[Ravenser]

It's just occurred to me - I believe the LNER (ex GC) side of Manchester Piccadilly (Manchester London Rd then) was just 3 platforms . Now that was the end of the GC main line, and saw A3s from 1936 ...

Edited February 18, 2023 by Ravenser

[NCB]

On 14/02/2023 at 19:59, melmoth said:

 

Two final observations:

 

1. The station pilot siding could be extended to join the carriage siding. This doesn't really give any massive operational benefits, but it would mean that stock could be propelled straight into the carriage siding without have to go through a reverse curve. Assuming that no other loco is occupying that space.

Thought about that. Reckon bottom right is open to several possibilities.  

On 14/02/2023 at 19:59, melmoth said:

2. Nothing wrong with denominating platforms for arrival or departure - it makes good operational sense. But your Plan B seemed to have a departure platform simply because that platform could not be accessed by incoming trains.

Let's say it didn't worry me. 

[NCB]

On 18/02/2023 at 16:57, D9020 Nimbus said:

A very interesting thread.

 

Just some points to raise — in the context of main line rather than suburban services it isn't necessary for all platforms to be capable of handling the same length of train. This might give additional room for the station building. There are other CJF plans for your type of situation as well as Minories.

 

 

Had similar thoughts; see next plan. 

[NCB]

Plan B alternative 1

 

 

Includes suggestions:

1. shorten  platform, extend buildimg
2. link carriage, loco sidings

[Ravenser]

39 minutes ago, NCB said:

Plan B alternative 1

 

 

Includes suggestions:

1. shorten  platform, extend buildimg
2. link carriage, loco sidings

I think I would reinstate the loco spur at the top of the throat , and use 2 pilots one at the top and one at the bottom

 

Access to the top platforms from the current spurs would be a real pig 

 

 

[NCB]

17 hours ago, Ravenser said:

I think I would reinstate the loco spur at the top of the throat , and use 2 pilots one at the top and one at the bottom

 

Access to the top platforms from the current spurs would be a real pig 

 

 

Don't want to make things too easy  😉   Was thinking of a signal box in the station throat.

[NCB]

Wondering if there are European TT kits suitable for station building and canopy.  

[Hobby]

This may have been mentioned before, but wasn't one alternative version of the original plan had the station building above the platforms at "road" level so no need to shorten any lines?

[D9020 Nimbus]

The basic Minories plan did assume a station building at a higher level. The actual building (other than just the facade and the steps down to the platform was an optional extra.

[NCB]

Fiddle yard - Option 3

 

C

Continuous runs are very useful, for testing, running in or just watching trains go by; pity they take a lot of space, as here. They do however offer space for sidings, although the 5-coach ones shown were  a bit of a squeeze.

 

It is 93 cm by 195 cm, and could yield an L shaped layout 315 cm by 195 cm. 

[Jeff Smith]

Assuming departing trains take the left-hand road there will be a lot of action in the fiddle yard.....to drop the coaches and turn the locos.  Have you thought about a train turntable - not so much capacity but easier to turn whole trains.  There again fiddle yard action might be all part of the total operating pleasure!

 

Actually it doesn't matter which road they leave on!

Edited February 27, 2023 by Jeff Smith
Added info

[NCB]

48 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Assuming departing trains take the left-hand road there will be a lot of action in the fiddle yard.....to drop the coaches and turn the locos.  Have you thought about a train turntable - not so much capacity but easier to turn whole trains.  There again fiddle yard action might be all part of the total operating pleasure!

 

Actually it doesn't matter which road they leave on!

Yep! I'd mandate 3 circuits beffore any  shunting takes place. 

[melmoth]

8 hours ago, NCB said:

Fiddle yard - Option 3

 

C

Continuous runs are very useful, for testing, running in or just watching trains go by; pity they take a lot of space, as here. They do however offer space for sidings, although the 5-coach ones shown were  a bit of a squeeze.

 

It is 93 cm by 195 cm, and could yield an L shaped layout 315 cm by 195 cm. 

 

I've plotted this in 205 by 90cm. Should be fairly self-explanatory. 3 five coach sidings (4 if you include the second DMU road). 1 Radius 2 curve and a length of Peco flexi at R5, otherwise all R3, R4 and R6.

 

 

[NCB]

14 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

I've plotted this in 205 by 90cm. Should be fairly self-explanatory. 3 five coach sidings (4 if you include the second DMU road). 1 Radius 2 curve and a length of Peco flexi at R5, otherwise all R3, R4 and R6.

 

 

Neat. Would you use Hornby uncouplers or something else?

[melmoth]

18 minutes ago, NCB said:

Neat. Would you use Hornby uncouplers or something else?

 

I don't know - I've not had any experience with the couplings that Hornby are using.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Hi there, looks neat - a lot packed in quite tidily.  I hope it’s OK, but could I share a couple of thoughts?

• I’d be concerned the short R2 curve could become an operating nuisance for long wheelbase steam locomotives.  If you wanted to I think there’s space for a gentler Flextrack curve to complete the reversing loop? (Shown below in blue).  It is key to the operation of this type of layout.
• The ends of some of the carriage sidings (in green circles) look very close to the curved running line going past, bearing in mind the “inswinging” overhang of longer coaches going past - will they clear the buffer stops on the sidings or will they hit?
• Two of the loco sidings look very short (red square) - they could be kept for shunters (eg: 08) but I wonder if one longer one might be an alternative - it would save on a point too?

Just some thoughts.  Hope that’s OK, Keith.