Pullman Trains - Eastern Region

[KLee55]

I have some Bachmann mk1 Pullman coaches (white roof) which, I believe, date from the early 60s.

 

What type of locos would generally have been  used to haul the Pullman trains during this period? I expect this would include Gresley pacifics and Deltics. Any others e.g. class 40s, BR standard class 7 steam?

[hexagon789]

D0260 Lion was effectively dedicated to the Sheffield Pullmans for some months in 1963 - working the fill-in turn, then the down evening fast service and returning on the overnight Sheffield-King's Cross fast vans. You also had 47s appear when introduced and sometimes Peaks.

[stewartingram]

D0280 Falcon spent a lot of time on the Master Cutler before that, also the 2000hp Brush 2 (I can't remember its number offhand).

[45125]

1 minute ago, stewartingram said:

D0280 Falcon spent a lot of time on the Master Cutler before that, also the 2000hp Brush 2 (I can't remember its number offhand).

D5835.

 

[dave75]

And DP2

[Wickham Green too]

Don't forget Metro-Cammell didn't build any Pullman brake vehicles in 1960 - so your rake should be topped and tailed by 1928 'All Steel' ones ( available in red boxes, I believe ).

[Bill Radford]

D0280 Falcon at Sheffield Victoria on the early afternoon London bound Master Cutler in, I think, 1962. (It may have been the Sheffield Pullman but to spotters was the Master Cutler)

 

 

The first coach being a 1928 brake.

 

Anybody any idea of the rough make up of the train consist?

[KLee55]

Thanks for replies. I was especially interested to know how common the use of Britannia class and class 40s on Pullman trains was at that time.

[stewartingram]

3 hours ago, Bill Radford said:

D0280 Falcon at Sheffield Victoria on the early afternoon London bound Master Cutler in, I think, 1962. (It may have been the Sheffield Pullman but to spotters was the Master Cutler)

 

 

The first coach being a 1928 brake.

 

Anybody any idea of the rough make up of the train consist?

From my own sightings, I have modelled the Master Cutler. I used the Heljan D0280, Hornby brakes 65 & 82, and Bachmann 332/Raven/Opal/Falcon coaches, renumbered/renamed as required . I don't have to hand the exact order of coaches, but these were the definite ones in the consist.

[Bill Radford]

Other occasions when I saw the Master Cutler (my grandparents lived in Worksop) it was usually pulled by a Class 40. DP2 was also a regular but that loco followed me round - if I had a day at Crewe I was pretty sure I would see DP2!!

[Ken.W]

On 14/02/2023 at 17:18, KLee55 said:

Thanks for replies. I was especially interested to know how common the use of Britannia class and class 40s on Pullman trains was at that time.

Class 40s appear to have been fairly quickly demoted from main ECML duties, due to their weight to power ratio (yes, it was more like that way round!)

Also the ECML didn't have Britannnias, the only regular EC workings with them I've heard of was GE section ones working into Kings X with Cambridge trains.

Steam on the Pullmans appears to have been normally A1s, A4s, and A3s. From the several albums l have, the A1s seem to have been most common on the Yorkshire services.

Bear in mind that the LNER built more Pacifics that all the rest put together, including BR.

[Ian Hargrave]

26 minutes ago, Ken.W said:

Class 40s appear to have been fairly quickly demoted from main ECML duties, due to their weight to power ratio (yes, it was more like that way round!)

Also the ECML didn't have Britannnias, the only regular EC workings with them I've heard of was GE section ones working into Kings X with Cambridge trains.

Steam on the Pullmans appears to have been normally A1s, A4s, and A3s. From the several albums l have, the A1s seem to have been most common on the Yorkshire services.

Bear in mind that the LNER built more Pacifics that all the rest put together, including BR.

When displaced from GE duties by incoming diesel traction,Immingham ( 40B ) gained an allocation of Britannias which then worked Cleethorpes- KX  turns via the ECML. 

[Ken.W]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

When displaced from GE duties by incoming diesel traction,Immingham ( 40B ) gained an allocation of Britannias which then worked Cleethorpes- KX  turns via the ECML. 

 

Thanks, had missed that, doesn't get them on the Pullmans though, apart perhaps an odd last minute failure substitute. Haven't seen any pics or reference to that though

 

On 14/02/2023 at 19:55, stewartingram said:

From my own sightings, I have modelled the Master Cutler. I used the Heljan D0280, Hornby brakes 65 & 82, and Bachmann 332/Raven/Opal/Falcon coaches, renumbered/renamed as required . I don't have to hand the exact order of coaches, but these were the definite ones in the consist.

 

For the Mk1 era (quoted as 1963 formation);

2nd brake

2nd kitchen

1st parlour

1st kitchen

1st kitchen

2nd brake

 

Ref; p210  LNER Passenger Trains & Formations 1923-67 (Banks & Carter) OPC

[Ian Hargrave]

On the ER,they didn’t. For a short while in the summer of 1951 on the SR,70009 worked the Belle and of course the Arrow with 73 A’s 70004&70014 for a while in the early 1950’s.On the WR,I think one of  81A’s ( while it still had an allocation) did on occasion work the down South Wales Pullman. 

[VIA185]

On 14/02/2023 at 17:18, KLee55 said:

Thanks for replies. I was especially interested to know how common the use of Britannia class and class 40s on Pullman trains was at that time.

I have access to photographer Noel Ingram's slide collection covering ECML trains by the hundred. He certainly got 40s, Deltics, 47s, the various prototypes and LNER Pacifics and a Brush Type 2 on the ECML Pullman trains. No Britannias, though. (CJL)

[GordonC]

On 13/02/2023 at 21:44, Wickham Green too said:

Don't forget Metro-Cammell didn't build any Pullman brake vehicles in 1960 - so your rake should be topped and tailed by 1928 'All Steel' ones ( available in red boxes, I believe ).

 

What did they use for brakes when the Mk1 Pullmans were painted into the reverse Blue-Grey Pullman livery, was it just Mk1 BG's? I dont remember seeing 1928 'All Steel' brakes painted in the reverse Blue-Grey livery

[Wickham Green too]

I've a feeling the Pullmans were working with other stock by that time rather than in full trains - in which case the brakes would have been Mk2s.

[GordonC]

41 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

I've a feeling the Pullmans were working with other stock by that time rather than in full trains - in which case the brakes would have been Mk2s.

 

Pullman coaches for first class and Mk2s for brakes and second class?

[Ken.W]

3 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

What did they use for brakes when the Mk1 Pullmans were painted into the reverse Blue-Grey Pullman livery, was it just Mk1 BG's? I dont remember seeing 1928 'All Steel' brakes painted in the reverse Blue-Grey livery

 

From what I've read, 2nd Class Pullman was withdrawn around the same time as the change to grey/blue, being replaced by ordinary 2nd Class accommodation. Brakes could be a brake 2nd, or Mk1 BG.

 

Many of the Pullman 2nds were re-designated as ordinary First Open, in normal blue/grey

Edited March 14, 2023 by Ken.W

[Wickham Green too]

Looking through https://www.flickr.com/photos/67418519@N00/galleries/72157649234607727/ you'll see all sorts of pre- and post-preservation combinations including former Second Class vehicles as Firsts in blue & grey !

 

[MartinRS]

On 14/02/2023 at 17:18, KLee55 said:

Thanks for replies. I was especially interested to know how common the use of Britannia class and class 40s on Pullman trains was at that time.

Here is a link to a class 40 hauling the Cutler. The text says the postcard was issued in the late 1950s. 

[mark54]

Full Brakes began to be rostered (with an extra Mk1 2nd) in 1965 at the north end, with a parlour brake retained at the south end. By 1966 these too were replaced by a Mk1 2nd. The BG was then at the south end for the Tees-Tyne & Master Cutler, middle for the Yorshire, but the White Rose had a BG at both ends.

 

When 2nd class started to be withdrawn, initially in Oct 1968, the Master Cutler was withdrawn completely and the Hull Pullman (with the cars from the White Rose) had a BG at the south end but by late1969/early 1970 had switched to a Mk1 BSO at the north end. The Tees-Tyne and Yorkshire retained a BG at the south end when 2nd class was withdrawn in May 1969 and May 1971 respectively.

[GordonC]

24 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Looking through https://www.flickr.com/photos/67418519@N00/galleries/72157649234607727/ you'll see all sorts of pre- and post-preservation combinations including former Second Class vehicles as Firsts in blue & grey !

 

 

There's some great pictures there, I didn't realise the Mk1 Pullmans operated with air-con Mk2Ds for so long.

[45125]

6 hours ago, mark54 said:

Full Brakes began to be rostered (with an extra Mk1 2nd) in 1965 at the north end, with a parlour brake retained at the south end. By 1966 these too were replaced by a Mk1 2nd. The BG was then at the south end for the Tees-Tyne & Master Cutler, middle for the Yorshire, but the White Rose had a BG at both ends.

 

When 2nd class started to be withdrawn, initially in Oct 1968, the Master Cutler was withdrawn completely and the Hull Pullman (with the cars from the White Rose) had a BG at the south end but by late1969/early 1970 had switched to a Mk1 BSO at the north end. The Tees-Tyne and Yorkshire retained a BG at the south end when 2nd class was withdrawn in May 1969 and May 1971 respectively.

The Hull Pullman when it became separate to the Yorkshire Pullman only got the two additional vehicles from the White Rose a PFK and a PSP. And as the vehicles would often change with works visits the vehicles could have been in any of the Pullmans with the exception of car 354.

 

 

Al Taylor

[mark54]

On 14/03/2023 at 22:31, 45125 said:

The Hull Pullman when it became separate to the Yorkshire Pullman only got the two additional vehicles from the White Rose a PFK and a PSP. And as the vehicles would often change with works visits the vehicles could have been in any of the Pullmans with the exception of car 354.

 

 

Al Taylor

To make clear, as I didn't word it well, that the withdrawal of the White Rose gave sufficient cars to run a separate Hull Pullman (and an expanded Bradford portion in the Yorkshire Pullman). The Hull Pullman ran as an all Pullman service from May 1967 to October 1968.