End of Steam on the British Railway Network

[br2975]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 Especially as the OP's question requires only a small amount of online research for the OP to answer it themself.

.

Hurrah

.

Confirmed, I'm not the only one who reads such posts and thinks..... " another one who wants others to do their research for them "

[The Johnster]

The actual final dates of cessation of steam workings on regions is easily enough ascertained online, but the dates steam finished in localities is less easy.  You can't go by shed closures because of course most sheds continued in some role with diesel engines.  To take my local scene, Cardiff and surrounding, the date steam finished officially, that is, when steam locomotives were no longer used on booked services, reliefs, excursions, or charters, was 31/8/65.  But I observed locos in steam in Radyr loco yard moving others about throughout the following week and a 94xx went out on a booked ballast duty the following Sunday or so I was informed by a mate who had seen it.  The shed itself was closed, sold to Powell Dyffryn who used it to overhaul tank wagons.  

 

Cardiff East Dock had been acting as the steam facility for Canton since that shed closed to steam in 1962, in the status of a booking-on point outstation, and that also closed on 31/8/65, but Cookham Manor took water an coal there in the October after working in to Tidal on a goods from Gloucester, and returned with a goods from Long Dyke, the last steam loco I saw emerging from that exit from the Docks system.  There is a photo of this, taken from the 'Black Bridge', the loco coupled to a 4,000 gallon tender at this time and in pretty good condition.  Severn Tunnel Jc. also closed in the August at which time the new diesel fuel point depot opened, also saw post-August steam activity; I saw Crosti 92028 and 7029 there in early '66, both disappearing Gloucester-wards tender first after leaving their trains in the down hump reception; the shed was no longer available being rented by Fords as a distribution facility and the water columns had been disconnected by that time I believe.  Gloucester was good for steam throughout the summer of '66.  Locos worked through to Gloucester from the Midlands and Banbury and occasionally had to come further west because there were no diesel replacements available at Gloucester, steam ban notwithstanding.  I am unaware of the situation on the Midland route towards Bristol, but the occasional steam engine penetrated as far as Tunnel until Saltley and Banbury closed to steam.

 

The loco situation on the WR, dire in 1962 and 1963 because of the failure rate of Warships and premature withdrawal of Halls and Castles, had eased considerably after the advent of the Westerns, Hymeks, 47s and 37s were drafted in, but it took a long time for it to completely cease to have an effect.  The rule was, apparently, that an allocation of a new diesel locomotive to a WR shed required the withdrawal of three similar steam engines, so a type 4 cost three Castles or two Castles and a 23xx, or a type 3 cost three Halls or 56xx.  This proved an ambitious target and two steam for one diesel would have been more realistic, especially as the Warships that were the core of the initial dieselisation proved underpowered (this was due to faulty assessments of steam power output from the Rugby Testing Station which 'informed' the 1955 Modernisation Plan's locomotive policy) and had had to be hammered to keep time; the same thing happened on the South Wales route with new Hymeks, tasked with replacing Kings on 14-coach trains because there wasn't anything else.  The timetable came close to collapse in 1963.

 

The knock-on effect lasted some time.  Bay-blocking Warships at Swindon with more queuing up outside meant that the Swindon batch of Westerns was late being delivered, and some fool decided that a new Type 1 hydraulic road switcher class was needed to replace the 94xx in the middle of all this as well; these engines, the D95xx, turned up 3 years late by which time there was precious little traffic for them.  Truth is, it was only the haemorrhaging of traffic that saved the region's *rse.  By '67 the worst was over, but the lingering effects in '66 kept steam, and later LMR diesels, continuing to get west of Gloucester, causing all sort of mayhem concerning traction knowledge (just as well Saltley men signed everywhere whether they'd seen the sky over it or not).  You could expect to see 20s, 25s, 27s, 31s, split-headcode 37s, a 40s, and 45/6s (Bath Road men signed traction for the 45/6s, but not South Wales men until 1969) at Severn Tunnel and the Newport yards, even down as far as Tidal sometimes, in the late 60s, and they were more or less guaranteed at Gloucester.

 

Swindon Works never recovered, no more new locos were built there following the Teddy Bears, hardly the most glorious swansong imaginable, and a decline set in, leading to redundancies, loss of work, and eventual predictable closure.  3 steam for 1 diesel becaus a steam loco could do 8 hours work and a diesel could do 24, in theory, but the real culprit was the managerial mindset that desired modernisation , in the form of steam replacement, as a priority at a rate beyond that which could be budgeted for, but pushed through anyway.  The WR, having eliminated steam from it's lines in Cornwall in '62, intended to be the first region to eliminate steam, and did on paper but there was plenty of steam activity in '66 from the LMR and Southern directions.  In reality, the ER beat them to it.  If Beeching hadn't shut half the railway down, things might have been much worse!

 

Much of this information is less easy to find online, and one can see why somebody trying to answer their own questions about it would ask us.

Edited February 14, 2023 by The Johnster

[br2975]

52 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The actual final dates of cessation of steam workings on regions is easily enough ascertained online, but the dates steam finished in localities is less easy.  You can't go by shed closures because of course most sheds continued in some role with diesel engines.  To take my local scene, Cardiff and surrounding, the date steam finished officially, that is, when steam locomotives were no longer used on booked services, reliefs, excursions, or charters, was 31/8/65.  But I observed locos in steam in Radyr loco yard moving others about throughout the following week and a 94xx went out on a booked ballast duty the following Sunday or so I was informed by a mate who had seen it.  The shed itself was closed, sold to Powell Dyffryn who used it to overhaul tank wagons.  

 

 

 

.

A few 'points of order' in relation to 'The Johnster's comments above.

 

(i)

Radyr shed closed to steam as and from Monday, 26th. July, 1965, not 31st. August, 1965.

This was my local shed, and destination of my Sunday morning walk.

With the Closure of Radyr shed to steam, dieselisation of the Cardiff Valleys was complete,  the minimum requirements being (all Canton allocated):-                                                                                       

20x English Electric Type 3 (Cl.37),                                                                                               

5x 350hp shunters (Cl.08),                                                                                                    

3x 650hp D95xx (Cl.14) 

.

I still have handwritten notes, copied off the Radyr shed duty/roster board for  the first day of total dieselisation - and there were no steam locos listed, and none in steam; all workings were diesel powered..

The most likely steam jobs, if there had been any, would have been pilots or trip jobs, but on that day the pilot workings were

T38 Aber jcn. D3595

CP7 Cathays D3505

H41 Radyr Top End D3510

H45 Radyr Quarry D3603

H34 'Trips' D9520

.

On shed at 13:30 were

D9537 - Spare

D6840 - For the 15:00 Ogilvie Colliery

D6980 - For the 17:18 Ocean Colliery

D6985 - Off Nantgarw

D9520 - For trips

D9550 - Off 10:25 Aberdare

D6950 - Off the 06:05 'Control'

D6935 - Off the 09:35 Nantgarw

D6973 Off the 05:30 Windsor Colliery

All the redundant steam locos were cold, the last having been used on the preceding Friday and Saturday, and most had been shunted to the side of the shed, together with a D95xx.

.           

 

 

Radyr shed was not sold immediately on the end of steam, as implied by 'The Johnster' but continued as a stabling point / signing on point for a few more years before Powell Duffryn took over the premises.                                  

.

(ii)

Cardiff East Dock closed completely as and from Monday, 2nd. August, 1965 

.

Any steam workings that may have reached Radyr after Monday 26th. July and before Sunday, 1st. August 1965, would have been trip workings from (probably) Long Dyke Jcn. / Tyndall Fields et al, worked by East Dock locos.

.

(iii)

The last 'steam shed' in South Wales was Llanelly (old spelling) which closed to steam on 4th. October, 1965, and closed completely the following month.

.

(iv)

7029 suffered a broken steam pipe on 27th November, 1965 between Paddington and Swindon.

It was withdrawn from Gloucester, Horton Road on 31st. December, 1965, and was dead on shed on 9th. January, 1966 having been sold to ' a chap from Cornwall for £2,000'.

It's arrival at STJ during that month would have been unlikely.

.

In fact earlier, on 13th. August, 1965, 7029 'Clun Castle' had hauled a dead 92220 'Evening Star' from Cardiff East Dock bound for Gloucester - but the ensemble only made it as far as Severn Tunnel Junction where 92220 was abandoned, and was still there on 1st. September.

'Clun Castle' had been a regular on the early morning Gloucester - Cardiff passenger during 1965.

[H2O]

Much info at:

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/the-end-of-steam-tables-by-class-region-depot/

 

As for Swindon the fact that the WR put all their eggs in the hydraulics basket meant that the works were set up to overhaul hydraulics, not electrics.  When the decision was made to run them down sadly the writing was on the wall.

[MarkC]

Regarding the WR, Gerry Fiennes' autobiography, "I tried to run a Railway", makes for interesting reading, particularly the section about when he moved to Paddington. Ditto Adrian Vaughan's own work, "Signalman's Trilogy". More tales from the coalface, as it were.

 

Mark

[BachelorBoy]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

the OP's question requires only a small amount of online research for the OP to answer it themself.

 

But asking on this forum, and the subsequent discussion, is much more enjoyable.

 

[BachelorBoy]

13 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

Hurrah

.

Confirmed, I'm not the only one who reads such posts and thinks..... " another one who wants others to do their research for them "

 

What a miserable sourpuss. 

 

Remember, forums like this are supposed to informative, entertaining, and enjoyable. And many people like to share their knowledge.

 

That can be very rewarding, especially when helping newcomers to the hobby ... you do want newcomers to the hobby, don't you?

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

Remember, forums like this are supposed to informative, entertaining, and enjoyable. And many people like to share their knowledge.

 

That can be very rewarding, especially when helping newcomers to the hobby ... you do want newcomers to the hobby, don't you?

 

You make valid and worthwhile points. I made a snotty remark that I shouldn't have. You are right, it is the discussion engendered, not the dates themselves, that is of interest - the question of why steam finished sooner on some regions (or perhaps better, divisions or districts) than others in particular.

 

For instance, I hadn't appreciated that the demise of Swindon Works was so closely allied to the failure of the diesel hydraulic programme.

[BachelorBoy]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You make valid and worthwhile points. I made a snotty remark that I shouldn't have. You are right, it is the discussion engendered, not the dates themselves, that is of interest - the question of why steam finished sooner on some regions (or perhaps better, divisions or districts) than others in particular.

 

For instance, I hadn't appreciated that the demise of Swindon Works was so closely allied to the failure of the diesel hydraulic programme.

 

No problem. I think you're right ... the serendipitous tangents that forum discussions reveal (a bit pretentious, sorry) are fascinating.

 

But only when forums are fresh and active. For some reason, I really hate reading old threads to find out stuff. It takes a long time and is not very efficient.

 

 

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

For some reason, I really hate reading old threads to find out stuff. It takes a long time and is not very efficient.

 

And frustrating when you want to contribute to the discussion but have missed the opportunity by several years.

[BachelorBoy]

32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You make valid and worthwhile points. I made a snotty remark that I shouldn't have. You are right, it is the discussion engendered, not the dates themselves, that is of interest - the question of why steam finished sooner on some regions (or perhaps better, divisions or districts) than others in particular.

 

For instance, I hadn't appreciated that the demise of Swindon Works was so closely allied to the failure of the diesel hydraulic programme.

 

You are actually reacting to the remark I made to br2975. I thought what you said was fine, although I had a different point of view. 

 

But I thought br2975's comment was rather mean.

[Compound2632]

Just now, BachelorBoy said:

But I thought br2975's comment was rather mean.

 

But he wouldn't have made it if I hadn't made my comment, so to that degree I accept responsibility.

 

But I do agree with @br2975 to some extent, in that there are cases where the best response to an enquiry is to direct the poster to the published literature rather than repeating what the published literature says; that helps keep our niche publishers in business, which has to be good for the hobby!

[BachelorBoy]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But he wouldn't have made it if I hadn't made my comment, so to that degree I accept responsibility.

 

But I do agree with @br2975 to some extent, in that there are cases where the best response to an enquiry is to direct the poster to the published literature rather than repeating what the published literature says; that helps keep our niche publishers in business, which has to be good for the hobby!

 

although some respondents are quite generous in recommending their favourite books when answering queries

 

[br2975]

3 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

But I thought br2975's comment was rather mean.

.

Like it or loathe it, I stand by my comment.

.

To me, it is a sign of the times when, despite the information someone seeks being 'out there' - the easier option is to post a question on a social media forum, thereby relying upon others, as opposed to conducting ones own personal research.

.

Had someone posted "I have exhausted the sources available to me, with no avail.....so can anyone tell me............?"

Then, it shows that the OP has at least  made the effort to satisfy their thirst of knowledge before throwing their question open to the floor.

To such a comment, my response would be tailored accordingly.

.

However, when it is pointed out that the in formation you seek can be found quite easily elsewhere online - posting a comment such as "But asking on this forum, and the subsequent discussion, is much more enjoyable." may serve to abrade those who had considered helping you out.

.

I leave it to you to decide whether you wish me to  remove my response to 'The Johnster' and its'  information regarding  the end of steam in South Wales ?

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by br2975

[BachelorBoy]

13 minutes ago, br2975 said:

.

Like it or loathe it, I stand by my comment.

.

 

 

And I stand by mine.

 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, MarkC said:

Regarding the WR, Gerry Fiennes' autobiography, "I tried to run a Railway", makes for interesting reading, particularly the section about when he moved to Paddington. Ditto Adrian Vaughan's own work, "Signalman's Trilogy". More tales from the coalface, as it were.

 

Mark

In view of what the latter said about me (and on eof his colleagues) in one volume of that 'Signalmanss''trilogy I take a lot of his writings with a considerable pinch of salt.

 

BTW The Johnster, and anyone else interested, should note that the D95XX were not the last locos built at Swindon but they were the last ones built there for BR.  The final locos built at Swindon were 20 metre gauge diesel hydraulic shunters (built to a Hunslet design for export) built in 1979.  

 

I think, but am open to correction, that the 1979 build made Swindon, over the years, the only railway owned works in Britain to have built locos for four different track gauges.

 

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You make valid and worthwhile points. I made a snotty remark that I shouldn't have. You are right, it is the discussion engendered, not the dates themselves, that is of interest - the question of why steam finished sooner on some regions (or perhaps better, divisions or districts) than others in particular.

 

For instance, I hadn't appreciated that the demise of Swindon Works was so closely allied to the failure of the diesel hydraulic programme.

It was definitely closely allied and the end of the diesel hydraulics meant a major loss of workload for Swindon.  But there were other reasons which - in the end - finally resulted in the works being closed.  Don't forget that Swindon Works didn't close until  8 years until after the last D10XX was withdrawn and even then the announcement of closure was very sudden.

 

In its final yrars work was being diverted to Swindon which could have been handled, possibly with a little delay elsewhere but the rundown of the overall loco fleet in the 1980s was also a factor in the final closure as BREL's  capacity increasingly exceeded BR's needs.

Edited February 15, 2023 by The Stationmaster
typos

[MarkC]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

In view of what the latter said about me (and on eof his colleagues) in one volume of that 'Signalmanss''trilogy I take a lot of his writings with a considerable pinch of salt.

 

Ah, I think know exactly what you're referring to, Mike. Will leave it there. Given one or two "almost own goal" incidents referred to in his tomes, one does think that a bit of a charmed life was lived too...

 

Nevertheless, it was more of a "Compare & Contrast" that I was thinking of, regarding the hurried demise of WR steam (being discussed here) and such things as the closure of stations like Challow, after withdrawing certain facilities, such as conveniently timed trains...

 

Mark

[Colin_McLeod]

On 14/02/2023 at 12:31, Compound2632 said:

 

Well, that's what you get for posting such a question on RMWeb! Especially as the OP's question requires only a small amount of online research for the OP to answer it themself.

 

However, anyone posing that question on Google now will get the full benefit of this thread in their results.  Thank you @Stefen1988 for asking.

 

[The Johnster]

I find Adrian Vaughan a bit 'gushy' and breathless, even in his writings never mind when he's interviewed, and clearly his enthusiasm sometimes gets the better of him.  He seems to have a somewhat crude agenda of 'GW steam perfect, steam in general/traditional railway good, all traditional railwaymen are saints' (I knew some of them, and they were anything but), vs 'all modern (i.e. post steam) railway bad, all modern management out and out evil', which, until you get tired of the drumbanging, is entertaining enough reading but a gross and wildly accurate oversimplification and a bit insulting to those in management in the British Rail era who struggled heroically and with some success against the 'rationalising' beancounter axemen, who certainly existed in the post-Beeching era (when, despite the cuts, losses increased to, IIRC, £94million in 1974, a bit of a low point.  The increasing rate of losses dates from my starting as a guard at Canton in 1970...).  The truth is a lot more complex and I regard Fiennes as much more reliably informative.  I love the 'we don't blow whistles at people from Newbury' comment; spot on!

 

Vaughan does need taking with a little salt, but Tuplin needs the whole salt mine...  I supsect the former's account of the 28xx that resuced a failed Warship at Didcot on the down 'Bristolian' in 1964 might be a tad exaggerated (the whole of Swindon Works staff out on the lineside to watch the cavalcade pass through, only about 20 minutes after it had set off from Didcot, really, fitters with oxy cutters waiting at Temple Meads to cut the siezed motion of the 28xx off after it had been pushed at 90mph, really?), but that Tuplin's account of a Great Central driver who left his loco in the charge of a fireman while he clambered around the tender footplating to perve on a courting couple in the leading compartment between Leicester and Rugby, only to fall to his death within a few miles of Leicester while the fireman took the train to Rugby, to be a complete fabrication, and consider his other footplate tales in the same light.  There's a difference between exaggerating and fabricating!

 

I didn't say that the failure of the hydraulics caused the closure of Swindon Works directly, but that that was when the rot set in; the knock on from the early 60s bay-blocking took a long time to dissapate, and might have taken longer had goods traffic not been heamorhagging to the new motorways and mineral in a steady decline.  All this must have had a major negative influence on the decision to rid the railway of hydraulics in the 70s (which, given the pathetic 25s and 31s that replaced the Hymeks was, IMHO, hastened and unwise, a repeat of the rush to get rid of steam; the hydraulics were running well by then, and there was plenty of vacuum freight work around for them for another decade.  Westerns were air-braked and good horses on Freightliner work).  With the hydraulics gone, the writing was on the wall for Swindon, which went into a long decline, with redundancies and general overcapacity, into the 80s, whereas Derby, Crewe,  Eastleigh and others thrived, despite existing in the same overall railway climate. 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by The Johnster

[APOLLO]

End of steam Springs Branch Wigan, November 1967 (Can't remember exact date).

 

Dad (a local press photographer) took this photo. Spot "The Boss" !!

 

 

A much younger Apollo

 

 

Last Day, Carnforth, Sunday 4 August 1968, the 15 Guinea special ran a week later. (Last steam hauled BR Steam train).

My photo, spent the last week with a North West rover ticket, Just Rose Grove, Lostock Hall & Carnforth left by then.

 

 

Brit15

[pH]

The caption to this picture gives information on some of the last steam engines in service in the Scottish Region:
 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/81/206

 

42274 had hauled the last steam-powered Scottish Region passenger service on April 28 1967:

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/81/14/

 

80116 and 80120 had worked as pilots between Glasgow Central and Larkfield carriage sidings until April 29. 80116 had been last to return to Polmadie shed on that day.

 

There were also a couple of 76xxx engines working as Beattock bankers up to April 29.

The two J36s referred to (65288 and 65345) were not officially withdrawn till June 1967. 65345 was used on a coal train during May:

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/J/j36.php

 

and so would appear to have been the last steam engine used in BR service in the Scottish Region.

 

After that, there were occasional steam workings into Scotland using Carlisle Kingmoor engines until that shed closed at the end of 1967. A regular working was the Wallerscote-Larbert soda ash train. This was usually a 9F duty, presumably because the tender could carry enough coal for a return journey. However, a Stanier 8F was used on occasion - I saw one running light, going south at Flemington in Motherwell in June 1967.

 

(A lot of this information comes from books where WAC Smith is author or co-author, illustrated with his photographs.)

[H2O]

6 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

However, anyone posing that question on Google now will get the full benefit of this thread in their results.  Thank you @Stefen1988 for asking.

 

Sadly this is the wrong date for WR, as I mentioned earlier in response to the text found by google, this incorrect info will live on as many people will stop there and just quote the search result found :-(

Edited February 15, 2023 by H2O

[Matt37268]

4 hours ago, pH said:

The caption to this picture gives information on some of the last steam engines in service in the Scottish Region:
 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/81/206

 

42274 had hauled the last steam-powered Scottish Region passenger service on April 28 1967:

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/81/14/

 

80116 and 80120 had worked as pilots between Glasgow Central and Larkfield carriage sidings until April 29. 80116 had been last to return to Polmadie shed on that day.

 

There were also a couple of 76xxx engines working as Beattock bankers up to April 29.

The two J36s referred to (65288 and 65345) were not officially withdrawn till June 1967. 65345 was used on a coal train during May:

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/J/j36.php

 

and so would appear to have been the last steam engine used in BR service in the Scottish Region.

 

After that, there were occasional steam workings into Scotland using Carlisle Kingmoor engines until that shed closed at the end of 1967. A regular working was the Wallerscote-Larbert soda ash train. This was usually a 9F duty, presumably because the tender could carry enough coal for a return journey. However, a Stanier 8F was used on occasion - I saw one running light, going south at Flemington in Motherwell in June 1967.

 

(A lot of this information comes from books where WAC Smith is author or co-author, illustrated with his photographs.)

What about 80002 used as a steam heating boiler until 1969? I think? (It’s rather late and I’m about ready to fall asleep, but It’s worth a check out) 

I think this might be the only Standard Tank that didn’t end up at Barry. 

[MarkC]

21 minutes ago, Matt37268 said:

What about 80002 used as a steam heating boiler until 1969? I think? (It’s rather late and I’m about ready to fall asleep, but It’s worth a check out) 

I think this might be the only Standard Tank that didn’t end up at Barry. 

I believe that you're right. She went straight from Polmadie, I think, to the KWVR. Well, most of her did - ISTR that she'd had a big hole cut in the back of the bunker to allow for easier refuelling?

 

Mark

[MarkC]

9 hours ago, APOLLO said:

A much younger Apollo

 

 

 

Brit15

What an excellent photo showing the filth (not you, Apollo!) involved with steam operation, and some front end details (such as the offset centre lamp iron) on this poor Standard 4 2-6-0. Is this one of the ex Barry trio that has survived, I wonder? (76077/9/84)

 

Mark