Never Enough Room

[sjrixon]

I've built my baseboards in the available space, so I've a 3m run, by approx 2.2m. 

 

I wanted to have a decent fiddle yard along one 3m side, viaduct along one short side, through station on the other long side, goods yard and then along the other short side to the fiddle yard.   

 

It's been a long time since I've played with track design and to be honest I'm low on inspiration. I created 2 ladder tracks in the space for the fiddle yard, but as always with building a layout, there isn't quite enough space! I wanted to get a 5 coach express train in, but I don't think I can. 

 

I then tried to play with the peco curved points, but they really didn't help me much.

 

I tried to upload the anyrail file, but I couldn't.. If anyone likes track planning, I'm happy to take on any clever ideas. :)

[Harlequin]

Hi Scott,

 

Don't worry, there are various ways to improve this to get more capacity and more consistent storage lengths.

 

Don't forget to add some crossovers outside all the storage loops so that a train that heads offscene towards destination A can come back from there later on the other line.

 

I've got to go a tedious meeting now so can't get into the details but have a look at this for example:

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Harlequin

[sjrixon]

Tedious meeting... ;)

 

I love the station layout there, and to be honest the fiddle yard, I'd played with something similar, but again I ended up with a fiddle yard of about 1m tracks.

 

But, your ladders gave me an idea..

 

 

[RFS]

Using curved turnouts can provide for longer sidings. I've used them on my layout and here's a picture of it during the construction so you can get some idea of what it could look like.

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by RFS

[sjrixon]

Very nice, and very long!! Which model/version are the curved points?

[ITG]

I have used the Peco set track curved points in hidden locations, with no running problems at all (despite what I read elsewhere). They are sufficiently tight radii to make a real difference in smaller spaces, which the Streamline curved points, being somewhat larger, cannot do.

[Michael Hodgson]

I don't think you've given us quite enough background info yet.  OK, so you're going for a double track roundy-roundy and aiming to maximise use of  available space, which means boards all the way round the edges of the room., operating well in the centre.  Important consideration is how do get you into the middle - duck-under (not so clever as you get older), lifting/removable flap (if so, where?), or perhaps from below via loft hatch?  Assume you're talking 4mm scale?  Any particular era/prototype company?

 

You've already built your baseboards, but it's usually a good idea to plan the track first because the boards impose some limitations on your options.  But as you've not laid track it's still not too late if you do decide any baseboard modifications would be useful.

 

I would comment that balance is important.  For example if your main station can handle a five coach train, that's what your fiddle yard should do - four coach trains isn't enough and you're wasting space if it takes seven coach trains.  Yes, you can run a few longer trains but only if planned to be non-stoppers. 

 

Is there going to be a branch as well?   Do you envisage an additional level (eg branch terminus above the fiddle yard?

 

Reverse loops are handy on a double track line, so that trains can come back the other way; the downside is that in most cases they can only run diagonally cross your operating well, which is a real pain in the backside.

[sjrixon]

Michael - all fair! 

 

It's 4mm and yes, duck under.. I still like to think I'm young. It's also trying to be family friendly.

 

My stock is generally GWR, mid 30s. But again, kids, so yes, Mallard is now running on the GWR ;)

 

The station is going to be short, I expect. But if I can get a couple of non-stop express into the fiddle yard, with the rest more short branch then I think that can be a fair compromise. So getting an up and down long siding into the fiddle yard would work, the rest being 3/4 coach trains.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 minute ago, sjrixon said:

Michael - all fair! 

 

It's 4mm and yes, duck under.. I still like to think I'm young. It's also trying to be family friendly.

 

My stock is generally GWR, mid 30s. But again, kids, so yes, Mallard is now running on the GWR ;)

 

The station is going to be short, I expect. But if I can get a couple of non-stop express into the fiddle yard, with the rest more short branch then I think that can be a fair compromise. So getting an up and down long siding into the fiddle yard would work, the rest being 3/4 coach trains.

OK, on that basis you probably don't need all your fiddle yard roads to be uniform length, but you will need several that are the right length for your 3/4 car trains (plus loco), and even one or two short ones that will take a 2-car auto-train or a single railbus/railmotor (these needn't be loops - they can be dead-end sidings, but they have to be able to return on the opposite line.  Station may want a bay platform.

 

Do you intend to have loco shed - unlikely to appropriate as this sounds like a simple main line through station between a couple of larger places.  Mallard is presumably on a loco exchange!

 

I think your next consideration is your goods traffic requirements -a general goods yard would be usual (served by only one or maybe two trains a day), but you might want an industry or two for particular traffic - a mine, factory with private siding (making what?), a gasworks etc,.  is it agricultural (milk trains/cattle wagons)

[sjrixon]

Let's not even talk about the class 37 ;)

 

You are right on the mark, they don't need to be full length a mix and match is fine. I've started to really get my head around anyrail now, so I've made some more progress on what I can do with a couple of the curved points to open the siding up, not looking too bad.

 

I love shunting, so there will be lots of freight traffic, more than there should be. Once I get to the station side I want to create a yard that can be shunted without using the main line (so the kids can be running trains). That might mean I also create a short branch or bay to give some space. 

[Michael Hodgson]

6 minutes ago, sjrixon said:

I love shunting, so there will be lots of freight traffic, more than there should be.

If you want to do a lot of shunting, you need a good excuse ... so that means more than one industry with a fair bit of traffic. And you'll need a lot of sidings.  Millitary traffic for the army camp up the road?  A brewery, a timber yard, dairy, cattle, small factory making agricutural machinery?  Ideally you want something that has raw materials delivered in as well goods exported. 

 

That's before you use Rule 1.  So why are we shunting a banana van in this branch terminus?  ... for the monkey house at the local zoo!

[sjrixon]

I'll plan the zoo siding ;)

 

But yes, coal, I had a brewery before, diary (I've got the building from the old layout) and of course a coal yard. 

 

Progress on the up main loops.. 

[Harlequin]

You don't need a big or complicated yard to do lots of shunting. In some ways smaller and simpler yards make the shunting more complicated because you have to do things like extracting vehicles in front of the one you want, and find somewhere to put them that won't block the next moves in the sequence. So lots of planning ahead and thinking required.

In the space available a simple double track though station with a fairly simple goods yard seems to be what would fit naturally. No branch lines, level changes or reversing loops. (You don't need reversing loops if you're happy to turn engines by hand in the fiddle yard.)

 

Keep it simple and add small details, like crossovers, horse box spurs, end loading roads, to make operations and shunting more interesting. To keep the main lines free for running while you shunt you need a simple headshunt running parallel to the main lines for a small distance.

 

Fiddle yard:

• Start the points ladders in the curves as much as you can.
• Send the ends of the storage loops around the corners if you can but obviously the more you do that the more it eats into the scenic length.
• Opposing ladders, like those in Lyneworth & Millhampton, help to make use of one of the corners better, avoiding reverse curves into the inner storage loop and make storage loops more consistent in length.
• Storage loops can also be set up as long trailing crossovers, which means you can store trains without having to think about where they might go next - they can always depart in either direction onto the right line without affecting anything running on the other line. (That does require facing crossovers outside the loops, though.)

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Harlequin

[sjrixon]

I love that ladder, but with my reduced space compared with that 'amazing' plan I don't think they quite work.. 

 

But, with a cross over in the right place, I think I can make it work.. 

[RFS]

5 hours ago, sjrixon said:

Very nice, and very long!! Which model/version are the curved points?

 

All my trackwork is Peco code 75, and these are their large-radius curved points. Work very well but you do need to take care that they are smoothly connected to the adjacent track. A slight kink can cause real problems!

[sjrixon]

13 minutes ago, RFS said:

 

All my trackwork is Peco code 75, and these are their large-radius curved points. Work very well but you do need to take care that they are smoothly connected to the adjacent track. A slight kink can cause real problems!

Spectacular space.. Very impressed.. 

[RobinofLoxley]

2 hours ago, sjrixon said:

I'll plan the zoo siding ;)

 

But yes, coal, I had a brewery before, diary (I've got the building from the old layout) and of course a coal yard. 

 

Progress on the up main loops.. 

With reference to the comments about curved turnouts, you have used Setrack turnouts - with these you can create a 90 degree turn with two inside and one outside line connections. With the Streamline turnouts they operate on a much larger radius and you need five to get round a right angle with four inside connections one outside, so the space consumed to get round is nearly double. But its the setrack ones that may suffer from derailments.

[sjrixon]

I tested the settrack curved points... :( 

 

I placed two on the outside loop, even using the 'outside' line, Mallard wacked the frog going in and derailed. 

[forest2807]

Have you thought about abandoning the idea of points completely and using a sliding traverser?

[sjrixon]

35 minutes ago, forest2807 said:

Have you thought about abandoning the idea of points completely and using a sliding traverser?

Yes.. and no.... 

 

Maybe in the future. For now I don't want to make a huge commitment until I know what works and doesn't work the kids. 

 

I did some further 'Mallard' testing, it's a Hornby railroad model. But, it doesn't like the smaller radius curves, So R2 are proving a challenge. Which could/would be fine, but you try explaining to a 7 year old that you can't run that loco into that siding/loop.

[DCB]

You need to check the back to back on Arthur (Arthur Mullard/ Mallard) or bin it if its tender drive   The tyres come loose and reduce the back to back  Lever it out with a screwdriver if its too tight   Usually they hit the check rail if too tight and the point nose if too wide.  14.5 mm electronic caliper or 14.2 mm sliding fit is usually around ball park.  Some Hornby is 13.8.

You can get a 5 Coach train in. (maybe 8)  at the expense of number of roads.  also middle two can be used for reversing.    Original plan struggled with 3.    Small radius round the outside, large radius on the inside is the way to do for hidden sidings.    See my Anyrail doodle

[RobinofLoxley]

Its the pony truck thats hitting the frog. Dont know what the weight of this particular model is, but my older heavier tender drive models with heavy pony trucks went round the inside radius, which is normally the challenging one, OK. It was the more modern Bachmanns with plastic pony trucks that would derail.

 

The alternative to curved points shown by @DCB is a perfectly good alternative. The xtra turnouts shorten the roads, maybe one pair is enough?

[DCB]

There were multiple designs of F/S pony trucks.   Some have a truly awful moulded green wheel pair with metal tyres.  Some pony trucks have a wheelset in two halves, a pair of hollow half axles with a wheel which run on a steel axle.  One wheel is  supposed to move on the axle and the other is splined to it.  Closed up they are tight to gauge, my cure is a washer between the wheel halves.

All these problems are fixable.  Any chance of a picture from underneath?

 

The plan had a couple of intermediate stages... no reversing, one track only reversing, and the one where I tried streamline points one side which limits the approach pointwork  complexity compared to set track.    see below BTW Peco set track points always seem to work better than Hornby. 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by DCB

[sjrixon]

It's a new Mallard, engine driven, it's been fine on other points ..

 

That's some nice ideas.. Might need to look again. 

 

But with some playing tonight, I've created a bit of a ladder with streamline points, gives a decent length for 2 long on the outside and I think 1 long one on the inside. 

 

[DCB]

Looking good.    If the Mallard has flangeless trailing wheels they gave lots of hassle.  It may have the optional flanged wheels fitted and they don't like set track points.  I had to build my son a Mallard for Christmas many years ago in tender drive days as the tender drive was so slow.   I bought  new body and tender and fitted the body to a Flying Scotsman and finally got it running just before Easter....  Still goes though, and still does a scale 126 MPH