would the woodhead route have survived if never modernised ?

[woodenhead]

27 minutes ago, 62613 said:

The M67 at the Mottram end is now being extended about half a mile to Mottram Moor, I think as dual carriageway, which doesn't actually do much to alleviate the problems of traffic through Tintwistle,Hollingworth and Mottram. Still, after about 40 years, it's nice to know that the Tintwistle - Mottram bypass has at least been started.

 

My MP has also in the last 12 years, lobbied for a Woodhead road tunnel, and for Metrolink to get to Stalybridge (god knows why!)

Except that the work will be delayed as some conservation group are against building the new road on greenbelt and are taking the DFT to court - I mean where else can it go to give some 'relief' the to residents.

[Reorte]

28 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Except that the work will be delayed as some conservation group are against building the new road on greenbelt and are taking the DFT to court - I mean where else can it go to give some 'relief' the to residents.

I'm not going to condemn them for doing that. Now admittedly the traffic in that area is atrocious so I'm not against the road being built, but so much mess has been made in the name of "development" and "progress" my heart sinks every time any of it happens.

[62613]

10 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Except that the work will be delayed as some conservation group are against building the new road on greenbelt and are taking the DFT to court - I mean where else can it go to give some 'relief' the to residents.

Indeed! It's difficult to see where else it could go. I've walked around the area, and it's wonderful, but something needs to be done about the traffic. I'm not sure that shifting the queues from Mottram Roundabout to another on the Eastern side of Tintwistle (eventually!) does much, though.

 

[dave75]

On 24/02/2023 at 19:45, MarkC said:

I never grasped why Woodhead was to be retained as opposed to the Hope Valley, particularly as the direct Manchester-Matlock-Derby route was closed.

 

Mark

Mark , I recommend Bankers and Pilots by Potts to give you a picture of the traffic levels over Woodhead and the reason the investment happened in the first place.

 

Back to the original posters point.

If that investment hadn't been pumped in the the 1940/50 it would have happened in the 1960s and with AC electrification, centralised power signalling, we might have been sat here on a very different topic.

 

There's a quote from a Manchester railwayman, somewhere out there in the internet, bemoaning the fact the the hope valley route essentially a secondary route, killed off 2 mainlines and it's an interesting point to ponder. 

 

 

 

 

[MarkC]

1 hour ago, dave75 said:

Mark , I recommend Bankers and Pilots by Potts to give you a picture of the traffic levels over Woodhead and the reason the investment happened in the first place.

 

Back to the original posters point.

If that investment hadn't been pumped in the the 1940/50 it would have happened in the 1960s and with AC electrification, centralised power signalling, we might have been sat here on a very different topic.

 

There's a quote from a Manchester railwayman, somewhere out there in the internet, bemoaning the fact the the hope valley route essentially a secondary route, killed off 2 mainlines and it's an interesting point to ponder. 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Dave.

 

Yes, back in the 40s & 50s, the coal traffic was pretty heavy, as we know, but what let the Woodhead scheme down was how limited it was - per the earlier comments about having to change traction.

 

I was thinking more about why retain Woodhead & shut the Hope Valley, when the line through Bakewell was also being closed? Any Manchester-Derby traffic would have to go via Woodhead, Sheffield Victoria (not convenient for passengers either) and the Old Road past Barrow Hill. A very circuitous route. I would have thought that there would have been enough traffic to retain both Hope Valley and Woodhead, with most freight going via Woodhead.

 

Of course, within a decade we started seeing the decline in coal, and at that point Hadfield to Penistone was on borrowed time.

 

Mark

[dave75]

Mark  I think derby-manchester is outside my knowledge but I get the impression it was closed to consolidate London -Manchester on the WCML, and justify electrification.

 

I disagree with your traffic analysis, IMO BR couldn't do without Woodhead until the steel strikes of 1979 removed 8 daily paths, it was still a very busy railway up to that point a lot of it after dark and away from the photographers eyes too, there's a good number of articles in the railway press at the time if you are interested.

If you look at Woodheads traditional MGR traffic it continued for a long time after the closure, the Yorkshire stuff via Healey Mills, and the Nottinghamshire via the Derby -Crewe line, obviously the Yorkshire coalfield was contracting but Fiddlers Ferry didn't stop using UK coal for quite some time after 1981.

The Eastern Region Sales team were still talking to Hepworths about using rail transportation for their pipe products from hazlehead bridge as late as 1985 and that's another reason the infrastructure was retained on that section for so long.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 24/02/2023 at 12:47, Anadin Dogwalker said:

The electric spine plan is one of the great missed opportunities of the last 20 years. I went through a phase of photting at Worting Jcn (west of Basingstoke) about 10 years ago. I was surprised by the volume of freight but annoyed as ever by diesel haulage under/over juice. Basingstoke-Reading and Didcot-Coventry under wire should be a no-brainer, but Oxford is still diesel I think? I stopped at Tebay yesterday between 3 and 4pm and bagged three  66s. a 70 vs one 88. Not a bad haul for an hour, but I'd prefer 90s or 86s anyday.

 

In the alternative UK, if we had practised route protection, The DN&SR and the GC via Banbury would have been the simple answer to the current day needs.

 

On 25/02/2023 at 00:47, TheSignalEngineer said:

There are only about five or six houses at Woodhead, all formerly associated with the railway. Crowden is slightly more populated, there are about 12 occupied properties within a 20 minute walk of the old station site. One of those used to be a row of railway cottages. There is only one isolated farm between the two ends of the tunnel at Woodhead and Dunford Bridge. Continuing east from there it's about four miles before you find any significant population. Heading due south from Woodhead the first house you come to is the former Snake Pass Inn about six miles across the moor.

Basically the population runs out about a mile past Glossop and Hadfield stations, but the catchment area of those plus Dinting generates about a million train journeys per annum.

 

If the plan above had been implemented, and the railways weren't hornswoggled by government interference for the sake of political point scoring, (and of course it's generational preference of road over rail), and been allowed to go out and aggressively tout for work, despite it being a tad bleak in places, population tends to follow the railway.

I've always had,as one of myriad layout ideas, the thoughts of Shawford Junction as a what if as an overhead/3rd rail plan.

 

Mike.

[MarkC]

2 hours ago, dave75 said:

Mark  I think derby-manchester is outside my knowledge but I get the impression it was closed to consolidate London -Manchester on the WCML, and justify electrification.

 

I disagree with your traffic analysis, IMO BR couldn't do without Woodhead until the steel strikes of 1979 removed 8 daily paths, it was still a very busy railway up to that point a lot of it after dark and away from the photographers eyes too, there's a good number of articles in the railway press at the time if you are interested.

If you look at Woodheads traditional MGR traffic it continued for a long time after the closure, the Yorkshire stuff via Healey Mills, and the Nottinghamshire via the Derby -Crewe line, obviously the Yorkshire coalfield was contracting but Fiddlers Ferry didn't stop using UK coal for quite some time after 1981.

The Eastern Region Sales team were still talking to Hepworths about using rail transportation for their pipe products from hazlehead bridge as late as 1985 and that's another reason the infrastructure was retained on that section for so long.

You may be right about Derby-Manchester, but by removing the Bakewell route it made Manchester-London via the Midland much slower anyway, so it still doesn't make sense. Mind you, some of BR's other decisions seemed odd too...

 

I agree that Woodhead was still busy in the 70s, but it was, like so many other lines, slowly declining. Your comment about the steel strikes makes sense as to why things changed fairly quickly though - that was a big hit to take in one go. It won't have helped its case when the rationalising of routes was being considered.

 

Yes, Fiddlers Ferry was still using UK coal, but paths were available elsewhere (more traffic lost after the 1979 steel strikes?) and again, this will have counted against Woodhead once the bean counters got involved.

 

Mark

[APOLLO]

After Woodhead closed Fiddlers Ferry power station started using coal from Bickershaw Colliery near Wigan. (some Scottish coal also). The line from Springs Branch to Bickershaw was relaid throughout with CWR and a rapid loader installed. Class 20's in pairs were mainly used, also some Class 60's were stationed at Springs Branch. Some trains had pairs of 20's on each end.

 

 The route was Bickershaw to Springs Branch, (reverse) down the WCML to Walton Yard Warrington (reverse) short run down to Latchford (reverse) and via Bank Quay low level to Fiddlers Ferry. I remember a test with a Class 20 on each end of a MGR train using remote radio control, the 3 reversals instigated these tests. I don't think the tests went further. Bickershaw closed in the early 90's. What a waste of money this investment was.

 

The Latchford to Altrincham line (which continued to the Woodhead line at Godley Jcn) was relaid in concrete sleepered CWR with level crossing modifications etc in the early / mid 70's, especially for the MGR trains over Woodhead to Fiddlers Ferry. I supervised the gas pipeline replacements at these level crossings when this work was done. Lots of weekend work !!  This line also closed just after Woodhead closed.

 

So the Woodhead closure meant closure of some other lines also, and many £millions in wasted recent investment in them, but Hey Ho it's just public (OUR) money, and the Government has countless access to it with little accountability.

 

Brit15

[montyburns56]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

After Woodhead closed Fiddlers Ferry power station started using coal from Bickershaw Colliery near Wigan. (some Scottish coal also). The line from Springs Branch to Bickershaw was relaid throughout with CWR and a rapid loader installed. Class 20's in pairs were mainly used, also some Class 60's were stationed at Springs Branch. Some trains had pairs of 20's on each end.

 

 The route was Bickershaw to Springs Branch, (reverse) down the WCML to Walton Yard Warrington (reverse) short run down to Latchford (reverse) and via Bank Quay low level to Fiddlers Ferry. I remember a test with a Class 20 on each end of a MGR train using remote radio control, the 3 reversals instigated these tests. I don't think the tests went further. Bickershaw closed in the early 90's. What a waste of money this investment was.

 

The Latchford to Altrincham line (which continued to the Woodhead line at Godley Jcn) was relaid in concrete sleepered CWR with level crossing modifications etc in the early / mid 70's, especially for the MGR trains over Woodhead to Fiddlers Ferry. I supervised the gas pipeline replacements at these level crossings when this work was done. Lots of weekend work !!  This line also closed just after Woodhead closed.

 

So the Woodhead closure meant closure of some other lines also, and many £millions in wasted recent investment in them, but Hey Ho it's just public (OUR) money, and the Government has countless access to it with little accountability.

 

Brit15

 

 

That's the thing, the closure of Woodhead was also indirectly responsible for the closure of the line through Stockport Tiviot Dale, the Godley to Woodley line, the Latchford to Altrincham line and also possibly part of the reason for the closure of the Fallowfield Loop. So that's four of the biggest rail closures in the Manchester area in the 80s.

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

After Woodhead closed Fiddlers Ferry power station started using coal from Bickershaw Colliery near Wigan. (some Scottish coal also). The line from Springs Branch to Bickershaw was relaid throughout with CWR and a rapid loader installed. Class 20's in pairs were mainly used, also some Class 60's were stationed at Springs Branch. Some trains had pairs of 20's on each end.

 

 The route was Bickershaw to Springs Branch, (reverse) down the WCML to Walton Yard Warrington (reverse) short run down to Latchford (reverse) and via Bank Quay low level to Fiddlers Ferry. I remember a test with a Class 20 on each end of a MGR train using remote radio control, the 3 reversals instigated these tests. I don't think the tests went further. Bickershaw closed in the early 90's. What a waste of money this investment was.

 

The Latchford to Altrincham line (which continued to the Woodhead line at Godley Jcn) was relaid in concrete sleepered CWR with level crossing modifications etc in the early / mid 70's, especially for the MGR trains over Woodhead to Fiddlers Ferry. I supervised the gas pipeline replacements at these level crossings when this work was done. Lots of weekend work !!  This line also closed just after Woodhead closed.

 

So the Woodhead closure meant closure of some other lines also, and many £millions in wasted recent investment in them, but Hey Ho it's just public (OUR) money, and the Government has countless access to it with little accountability.

 

Brit15

It was the bridge at Latchford that closed the route in 1985 not Woodhead closing, the MGRs being routed via Stockport Edgeley to get to the Northenden line and on to Broadheath and Warrington.  I imagine though the changing patterns of trains for Fiddlers Ferry post 1981 reduced the importance of the Latchford route making any repairs to the bridge uneconomic and dooming the line.

52 minutes ago, montyburns56 said:

 

 

That's the thing, the closure of Woodhead was also indirectly responsible for the closure of the line through Stockport Tiviot Dale, the Godley to Woodley line, the Latchford to Altrincham line and also possibly part of the reason for the closure of the Fallowfield Loop. So that's four of the biggest rail closures in the Manchester area in the 80s.

Godley through to Tiviot Dale lost it's trains in 1980 due to the tunnel collapse at Tiviot Dale, it was formally closed in 1982 after Woodhead closed but they had been managing without it prior to closing Woodhead.  Latchford - Altrincham was closed due to Latchford viaduct becoming unsafe and uneconomic to repair in 1985.

 

The Fallowfield loop continued with traffic until the early 1990s with a swansong during the first Piccadilly remodelling to allow Trans Pennine services to go via Oxford Rd rather than Victoria.  Traffic generated at Trafford Park was more Speedlink orientated than block train so it's demise is linked with the loss in business from Trafford Park needing to be tripped to Dewsnap or Ashburys.  The main traffic later on was Freightliners - to/from Holyhead and the North East which ceased or began being routed via Oxford Rd at some point.  The Holyhead traffic was eventually routed via Crewe and not long after all traffic to Holyhead ceased with the traffic I believe sent from Liverpool instead.

[PenrithBeacon]

Sorry to be picky, but I'm pretty sure the Fallowfield loop closed in 1988. Stations closed in 1959 (?)

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

despite it being a tad bleak in places, population tends to follow the railway.

Besides being bleak, Longdendale is not well served by utilities past Torside. I looked at the old Crowden cottages when they were up for sale some years ago. The last resident of the row had an oil lamp, coal range and spring water. Also virtually all of the land is owned by United Utilities and is used for water catchment so any development would be frowned upon.

[Compound2632]

The Hope Valley line was a good deal younger than either the Peak Forest or Woodhead lines and hence, I would imagine, looked a better bet for ongoing economy of maintenance. 

 

But I do like the idea of 1960s electrification of the Great Northern main line coupled with closure of the Great Central London Extension resulting in the restoration of Kings Cross - Manchester expresses via Retford. Long live the MSLR! 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Compound2632

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Sorry to be picky, but I'm pretty sure the Fallowfield loop closed in 1988. Stations closed in 1959 (?)

You're right I was confusing with when the Holyhead Freightliners ended, which was after the trains had been diverted away from Fallowfield in '88 to reverse at Crewe.

 

I only lived by the line 😲  Worst thing was the day I thought I could hear a train coming again after years of silence, the tracks had begun to sing as only CWT does when a train is coming.  But it wasn't a train, somewhere in the distance something was hauling the track away and the noise was the track ringing out as it was dragged through the sleeper chairs.  And that was it, end of the loop.

[APOLLO]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

It was the bridge at Latchford that closed the route in 1985 not Woodhead closing, the MGRs being routed via Stockport Edgeley to get to the Northenden line and on to Broadheath and Warrington.  I imagine though the changing patterns of trains for Fiddlers Ferry post 1981 reduced the importance of the Latchford route making any repairs to the bridge uneconomic and dooming the line.

Godley through to Tiviot Dale lost it's trains in 1980 due to the tunnel collapse at Tiviot Dale, it was formally closed in 1982 after Woodhead closed but they had been managing without it prior to closing Woodhead.  Latchford - Altrincham was closed due to Latchford viaduct becoming unsafe and uneconomic to repair in 1985.

 

The Fallowfield loop continued with traffic until the early 1990s with a swansong during the first Piccadilly remodelling to allow Trans Pennine services to go via Oxford Rd rather than Victoria.  Traffic generated at Trafford Park was more Speedlink orientated than block train so it's demise is linked with the loss in business from Trafford Park needing to be tripped to Dewsnap or Ashburys.  The main traffic later on was Freightliners - to/from Holyhead and the North East which ceased or began being routed via Oxford Rd at some point.  The Holyhead traffic was eventually routed via Crewe and not long after all traffic to Holyhead ceased with the traffic I believe sent from Liverpool instead.

 

I remember a meeting with British Rail in the early 80's regarding Latchford Viaduct closure. We (British Gas) had just laid a high pressure gas transmission pipe over it. They were concerned having conducted tests with the steel used in the bridge crystalysing or something like that. Anyway the bridge is still there, pipeline and all, no tracks though. I may be wrong but I think it is a listed structure.

 

Interesting video.

 

Brit15

[MarkC]

8 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

I remember a meeting with British Rail in the early 80's regarding Latchford Viaduct closure. We (British Gas) had just laid a high pressure gas transmission pipe over it. They were concerned having conducted tests with the steel used in the bridge crystalysing or something like that. Anyway the bridge is still there, pipeline and all, no tracks though. I may be wrong but I think it is a listed structure.

 

Interesting video.

 

Brit15

It might be that they were worried about brittle fracture, should any liquid gas come into contact with the steelwork following a pipe fracture?

 

Mark

[APOLLO]

7 minutes ago, MarkC said:

It might be that they were worried about brittle fracture, should any liquid gas come into contact with the steelwork following a pipe fracture?

 

Mark

 

The pipeline is high pressure natural gas, NOT freezing cold liquified natural gas (LNG).

 

Brit15

[MarkC]

25 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

The pipeline is high pressure natural gas, NOT freezing cold liquified natural gas (LNG).

 

Brit15

M'yes, it is, but if there's a leak, there is a large temperature drop (remember the Gas Laws?) at the point where the gas pressure drops to atmospheric pressure, and whilst it's unlikely, there is the possibility that this thermal drop could transfer to supporting steelwork. Now, whilst modern steel can shrug off some cold impact, the same might not be said of some older steels, so the engineers may well have (rightly) been working on possible worst case scenarios.

 

Mark

[woodenhead]

This chap took it step further and scrambled the fencing, I assume the big pipe seen at the very beginning behind him is the gas main @APOLLO

 

I nearly purchased a house at Latchford, twenty years or more ago those were new houses and I remember whilst looking round one a ship arrived and was in the lock, it was very strange watching it sink before our very eyes.

 

[Reorte]

On 26/02/2023 at 09:22, 62613 said:

Indeed! It's difficult to see where else it could go. I've walked around the area, and it's wonderful, but something needs to be done about the traffic. I'm not sure that shifting the queues from Mottram Roundabout to another on the Eastern side of Tintwistle (eventually!) does much, though.

 

It gets it past where it's currently bad. I guess we'll have to wait and see whether or not that'll achieve anything or just shift it somewhere else. I've not seen the plans for a while, can't recall whether that means traffic for Glossop goes the existing way. If it does then separating those out will at least mean considerably less traffic trying to fit down one road, since it'll be split between the two even if that split's not 50-50. It usually seems to ease off somewhat after they split on the existing roads.

[woodenhead]

15 minutes ago, Reorte said:

It gets it past where it's currently bad. I guess we'll have to wait and see whether or not that'll achieve anything or just shift it somewhere else. I've not seen the plans for a while, can't recall whether that means traffic for Glossop goes the existing way. If it does then separating those out will at least mean considerably less traffic trying to fit down one road, since it'll be split between the two even if that split's not 50-50. It usually seems to ease off somewhat after they split on the existing roads.

 

And the Highways web page, first entry is the latest complaint against the plans

https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-roads/north-west/a57-link-roads/

Edited February 27, 2023 by woodenhead

[62613]

26 minutes ago, Reorte said:

It gets it past where it's currently bad. I guess we'll have to wait and see whether or not that'll achieve anything or just shift it somewhere else. I've not seen the plans for a while, can't recall whether that means traffic for Glossop goes the existing way. If it does then separating those out will at least mean considerably less traffic trying to fit down one road, since it'll be split between the two even if that split's not 50-50. It usually seems to ease off somewhat after they split on the existing roads.

The original plan was to run from the existing Mottram roundabout (M67 J4) round through the fields bypassing Mottram Hollingworth and Tintwistle, and rejoining the A628 east of there. There was going to be a spur off it towards Glossop, joining the existing A57 on the Glossop side of Woolley Bridge using a tunnel. I don't know if that's been updated. The part now authorised runs only as far as the A6018 (the road through Mottram cutting) AFAIK

Edited February 27, 2023 by 62613

[woodenhead]

24 minutes ago, 62613 said:

The original plan was to run from the existing Mottram roundabout (M67 J4) round through the fields bypassing Mottram Hollingworth and Tintwistle, and rejoining the A628 east of there. There was going to be a spur off it towards Glossop, joining the existing A57 on the Glossop side of Woolley Bridge using a tunnel. I don't know if that's been updated. The part now authorised runs only as far as the A6018 (the road through Mottram cutting) AFAIK

It does help I guess, but having been stopped in traffic through Glossop on a few occasions I cannot help but think they will get no respite and if the Mottram bit has been eased it might attract even more traffic.

 

And of course, then there are the lorries over the A628 will still pound through Hollingworth before reaching the faster part of the by-pass.

[APOLLO]

5 hours ago, MarkC said:

M'yes, it is, but if there's a leak, there is a large temperature drop (remember the Gas Laws?) at the point where the gas pressure drops to atmospheric pressure, and whilst it's unlikely, there is the possibility that this thermal drop could transfer to supporting steelwork. Now, whilst modern steel can shrug off some cold impact, the same might not be said of some older steels, so the engineers may well have (rightly) been working on possible worst case scenarios.

 

Mark

 

Well I've attended many hundreds (if not thousands) of gas escapes at all pressure regimes and pipe materials over my 40 years of work and have never come across this as a problem, let alone it was never even considered. Perhaps a case with LNG but that is only piped within LNG import & regassification terminals (Milford Haven and Isle of Grain UK) - but that stuff I never worked on. Having said the above sometimes high pressure gas is pre heated before it enters pressure reduction plant to stop condensate freezing clogging the works - an operational problem.

 

The meeting I attended was about the safety of the bridge for rail traffic, and the solution later was to close the line. The railway officials were concerned that the gas pipeline would have had to be re routed if the bridge needed demolishing, hence the meeting. Both bridge and pipeline still survive.

 

Meetings with railway officials, I've had many over the years re gas pipes, always very thorough and officious with multiple railway managers from various departments, and just me, though it did help that I was a (semi knowledgeable)  railway enthusiast who (more or less) understood what they wanted and why.

 

Brit15

Edited February 27, 2023 by APOLLO
typo