Continental rolling stock on British metals in the Grouping era

[NZRedBaron]

Hello folks; I apologise in advance if this is not the appropriate channel, but I have been thinking recently about a picture I saw years ago, of what was apparently a 1930's photograph of an Italian refrigerated wagon being unloaded at a Southern Railway goods depot somewhere in London; and it got me wondering about where on the British network one could plausibly see continental rolling stock in motion.

 

Would it only be on the Southern from Cross-Channel ferries, or could you plausibly use continental stock elsewhere? And if so, what stock could be used?

[phil-b259]

There were two train ferry operations between the Uk and Europe.

 

The more famous one is the Dover - Dunkerque one (largely because it also was used by the Night ferry sleeping car service between London and Paris) but the LNER also had a train ferry operation between Harwich and the Hook of Holland*.

 

Both services we resumed after WW2 and lasted up until the mid 1980ds when train ferry operations were concentrated on the Dover - Dunkerque run.

 

As to the wagons, please remember that regardless of whether its a 1930s railway wagon or a modern HGV, it is necessary for such things to be securely fastened to the deck with chains to keep them in place in heavy seas. As such railway wagons had to be specially built for use on train ferries with additional anchoring points on the underframe - and when you combine that with the UK loading gauge it will become clear that such wagons were (1) relatively few in number (2) would have been intensively used so wouldn't have been left lying about for long periods (as can happen with the domestic wagon fleet).

 

That said there was sufficient traffic to keep both the Harwich (3 boats) and the Dover operation (3 boats) employed so foreign wagons would have been reasonably common in certain areas and on certain flows particulalrly those serving Dover and Harwich. 

 

These pages may be useful:-

http://igg.org.uk/rail/4-rstock/04arstock9.htm
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/8203-belgian-ferry-vans-on-eastern-region/
https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12435

 

 

 

*

https://www.harwich-history.co.uk/harwich-train-ferry/ 
https://www.lner.info/ships/GER/index_train.php

Edited March 8, 2023 by phil-b259

[rodent279]

This is discussed elsewhere on RMWeb,  but I can't  remember the thread. There are photos of Italian vans in darkest Herefordshire,  presumably unloading Vespa scooters, and being reloaded with apples/cider. Admittedly this is in the 1950's, so outside the OP's timeliness, but swap Vespas for tomatoes and I'm sure it could have happened 20-30 years earlier. I've also seen photos of Italian vans in Leeds, again the the BR era.

[Re6/6]

58 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

This is discussed elsewhere on RMWeb,  but I can't  remember the thread. There are photos of Italian vans in darkest Herefordshire,  presumably unloading Vespa scooters, and being reloaded with apples/cider. Admittedly this is in the 1950's, so outside the OP's timeliness, but swap Vespas for tomatoes and I'm sure it could have happened 20-30 years earlier. I've also seen photos of Italian vans in Leeds, again the the BR era.

 

 

1458 at Pembridge with two FS vans.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Re6/6

[Johann Marsbar]

There is a DR ferry van preserved at the Bochum-Dahlhausen museum......

 

 

 

 

They also have a couple of post-war DB ones as well.

[billbedford]

There were regular workings between Berlin and Manchester that carried dyestuffs for the textile industry. 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Johann Marsbar said:

There is a DR ferry van preserved at the Bochum-Dahlhausen museum......

... a French one's preserved at Mulhouse and its sister in York. Long overdue RTR coverage in 4mm scale.

[Fat Controller]

One of the oddest pre-WW2 traffics was of live carp from Lake Balaton (Hungary) to East London. It ran until the war started, when the Hungarians (at the time non-belligerent) tried to have the wagons returned.

[pete_mcfarlane]

5 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

As to the wagons, please remember that regardless of whether its a 1930s railway wagon or a modern HGV, it is necessary for such things to be securely fastened to the deck with chains to keep them in place in heavy seas. As such railway wagons had to be specially built for use on train ferries with additional anchoring points on the underframe - and when you combine that with the UK loading gauge it will become clear that such wagons were (1) relatively few in number (2) would have been intensively used so wouldn't have been left lying about for long periods (as can happen with the domestic wagon fleet).

It's worth pointing out that not all train ferry wagons were UK loading gauge - there were train ferries in the Baltic (linking Scandinavia with mainland Europe) and between Italy and Sicily. Supposedly the odd Berne gauge wagon would accidentally turn up at Dover or Harwich. 

[bécasse]

3 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Supposedly the odd Berne gauge wagon would accidentally turn up at Dover or Harwich. 

 

....... or Hither Green on an odd occasion or two.

 

There were BR wagon inspectors at Dunkerque and Zeebrugge who were meant to ensure that it didn't happen.

 

Wagons built with anchorage points for chaining down on ships carried a painted anchor symbol.

[Bernard Lamb]

I have no idea of how frequent it was, or when it started, but German flat wagons with side stakes were used to transport weaving looms to locations in the ScottishBorders. I have a photograph of one in Galashiels taking looms to Gadiner of Selkirk. Probably dating from the early 1960s as it was to go on to Selkirk  by the local freight train.

Bernard

[Re6/6]

https://www.societavenetaferrovie.it/carro-21-83-21-48-963-3-fb-1931-sagoma-inglese/

[NZRedBaron]

All very useful stuff, thank you.

 

So, is there anything available RTR that would suit such an idea?