Cows in cattle wagons - how arranged?

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The Rule of Law, in the form of Board of Trade regulations made pursuant to the Diseases of Animals Act 1894, being unknown there.

Hmmm .......... SHOULD have been known on the Irish narrow gauge prior to Partition - but obviously the word didn't get down to County Kerry.

[Compound2632]

46 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Hmmm .......... SHOULD have been known on the Irish narrow gauge prior to Partition - but obviously the word didn't get down to County Kerry.

 

The Minister for Agriculture of the Republic was making orders under powers derived from the 1894 act in 1950: 

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1950/si/16/made/en/print.

However, it appears that the Act applied in England, wales, and Scotland only:

https://vlex.co.uk/vid/diseases-of-animals-act-808347789

So it may be that separate legislation was passed for Ireland at the same date. Equally, the 1895 regulations made by the Board of Agriculture, that we have been discussing, may only have applied in England, Wales, and Scotland, and similar regulations were perhaps not made for Ireland. 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Compound2632

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, Sabato said:

I'm not sure that's entirely true, Paul. I remember  hearing an interview (on Radio 4 I think) with a BR stockman employed at Liverpool/Birkenhead on the Irish cattle traffic (the last cattle traffic handled by BR ?). I have an LMS text book,   Goods Station Working, and what the stockman recalled matched most of what was covered in the book on livestock. Of course, a grade of stockman, wouldn't necessarily be employed at a goods yard with only weekly cattle market traffic.

 

I also seem to recall something about the customer loading the stock, under the supervision of railwayman.

Yes. The last cattle trains I'm aware of where for the Irish cattle traffic through Merseyside. So, having specialist workers would be necessary. What I meant was that stations up and down the land would be short of knowledgeable staff, as Johnster mentioned. The idea that BR reduced the number of places loading cattle also goes along with that. Here in York it seems to have carried on for a long time - I believe from Merseyside. With Ebor Group colleagues (now in their 60s) remembering cattle being driven from Fosse Islands to the cattle market opposite the Barbican. 

 

Paul

[57xx]

On 08/03/2023 at 16:49, Compound2632 said:

If for tethering, why on the outside? I suspect these are for tying sheets down. Also, if for tethering from the outside, they are awkwardly-placed in relation to the height of the beasts.

 

I'd agree for sheeting. Wrong height for the animals and also for the person trying to do the tethering, placing them outside is impractical, and none of the cattle in the shot are actually tied up there either.

[Michael Hodgson]

If you sheet the cattle, doesn't that mean they get  inadequate ventilation to let the smell out/allow them to breathe properly? 

Or does this imply use of cattle wagons as improvised goods vans?

[uax6]

I don't think that ventilation would have been overly impaired by sheeting (cattle wagons aren't really that weathertight are they?) as during WW1 when the Calvary horses (for the lower orders) were moved they were put in cattle wagons which HAD to be sheeted (to stop the daft things from panicking I presume). 

 

Andy G

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If you sheet the cattle, doesn't that mean they get  inadequate ventilation to let the smell out/allow them to breathe properly? 

Or does this imply use of cattle wagons as improvised goods vans?

 

Remember there are those slats at the bottom of sides and ends.

[5BarVT]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Rule of Law, in the form of Board of Trade regulations made pursuant to the Diseases of Animals Act 1894, being unknown there.

Distance from London probably comes into it. c.f. (Lack of) Lock, Block and Brake on the Highland Railway when others were already compliant.

Paul.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, uax6 said:

I don't think that ventilation would have been overly impaired by sheeting (cattle wagons aren't really that weathertight are they?) as during WW1 when the Calvary horses (for the lower orders) were moved they were put in cattle wagons which HAD to be sheeted (to stop the daft things from panicking I presume). 

 

Andy G

If they were going to panic in an unsheeted wagon, they weren’t going to cope well at the front.  Sadly, of course, many didn’t…

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Distance from London probably comes into it. c.f. (Lack of) Lock, Block and Brake on the Highland Railway when others were already compliant.

 

In this case it simply the constitutional, rather than geographical, position of the Isle of Man.

[ardbealach]

And how were the wagons cleaned out at the end of the journey?  Hose pipe or basic jet wash?  

 

I recall somewhere that lime was used.  The picture farther back up the thread of the cattle wagon appears to have a white 'weathering' lime? around the solebars.  (Alisdair)

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Distance from London probably comes into it. c.f. (Lack of) Lock, Block and Brake on the Highland Railway when others were already compliant.

Paul.

Non-compliance was prohably more down to distance from £sd in the case of the companies operating in northern Scotland.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, ardbealach said:

And how were the wagons cleaned out at the end of the journey?  Hose pipe or basic jet wash?  

 

I recall somewhere that lime was used.  The picture farther back up the thread of the cattle wagon appears to have a white 'weathering' lime? around the solebars.  (Alisdair)

Pressure washers didn't exist in the days of cattle by rail.  I think you'd be talking brooms and hose pipe if you were lucky or buckets otherwise.  Lime was used to disinfect in the earlier period and does explain white staining, but was dropped (from about the 1920s/30s) in favour of other chemicals less harmful to animals. 

[The Johnster]

Brooms and hoses.  Lime was discontinued in the early 1900s IIRC, as it was painful for the beasts and irritated their feet.  It is very prominent on older photographs, and the stains were probably visible on wagons that had gone a while without a repaint for a good while after it's use stopped.  For more recent periods, a few bits of straw sticking out of the slats will convey the right impression, and, if you can live with the suggested unpleasantness, slurry stains, but these would be hosed down after each loaded journey.

 

On the subject of unpleasantness, I was coming home from a stint of volunteering on the Ffestiniog in the hot'n'hazy summer of 1969, changing at Shrewsbury where I had about an hour and a half waiting for the next Cardiff and pining for clean Manors... in one of the island platform bays was a rake of three BR standard GUVs all in gleaming ex-works blue livery, carrying pigs!  There was quite a crowd on the south end of the platform to get upwind of them, the slurry could be seen dribbling out under the doors, and it was a warm August day...  They were not happy porkers, either, and were protesting, loudly, piggystylee.

 

There was presumably a story behind this, but I never knew what it was.

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Pressure washers didn't exist in the days of cattle by rail.  I think you'd be talking brooms and hose pipe if you were lucky or buckets otherwise.  Lime was used to disinfect in the earlier period and does explain white staining, but was dropped (from about the 1920s/30s) in favour of other chemicals less harmful to animals. 

 

The Transit of Animals Order, 1927, is usually cited for this; it speaks of "approved disinfectant", either 5% phenol solution or other disinfectant approved by the Minister. In other respects it repeats previous requirements. 

[billbedford]

13 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If you sheet the cattle, doesn't that mean they get  inadequate ventilation to let the smell out/allow them to breathe properly? 

 

Have you ever heard of someone suffocating in a tent?

Edited March 11, 2023 by billbedford

[Morello Cherry]

On 10/03/2023 at 12:38, The Stationmaster said:

Cows very quickly get used to backing out after being milked but that is rather different from certain other situations where the herd instant takes over.  The easy part about driving a herd of cows was that generally they played follow the leader which even I as a  nipper could manage provided the lead animal(s) went the right way and you kept an eye for any further back who found something tasty to munch at the roadside or, even worse, in somebody's front garden.

 

But equally because of that herd instinct if the lady in the lead took it into her head to do something a bit different others were inclined to follow and if you were trying to move one ina particular way once again others were inclined to follow

 

I am not an expert on cattle farming but I think it is worth noting that not all cattle/animal journeys are the same and the type of animal traffic will depend on the type of farming and types of farm in the area.

 

To give an example. In Ireland, cattle farming was a chain economy.  Individual and small numbers of cattle would be born/raised in the west, the quality and amount of land available was not enough for the small holder to bring the cattle to maturity, so young cattle would then move east to larger land holdings in the centre of the country before heading to the big ranches in the east. It is from here that they would then be exported to Holyhead etc. So if modelling the west, you would generally have younger cattle and probably fewer, if modelling the east, you would have large numbers of mature cattle.

 

If the farms in the area you are modelling are small holdings/tenant farms - then it is likely that cattle would be young cattle going to market to be sold on, if your land holdings were larger farms then probably young cattle in, older cattle out. If it is beef farming them you'd be likely to have trains heading to market/the abattoir, if a dairy area then you might have stock moving in but the classic cattle pens on a layout full of cattle waiting to go would I think be less likely.

 

As a sidenote. In Peter Johnson's book on the WLLR there are a few interesting pieces about the volume of cattle traffic (as late as the 50s there were still carrying 40-50 wagon loads a year of livestock). This story has some interesting info as well.

 

Quote

"A charge of animal cruelty brought against a farmer by the RSPCA and which involved the railway was heard at Welshpool magistrates' court on 19 October 1909. It was the practice to transport calves in sacks because they were carried as dead weight, attracting a cheaper rate. [emphasis mine] John Thomas, Dolarddyn, had despatched a calf from Castle Caereinion in this manner on 12 August. On arrival at Welshpool it was seen by a passenger who thought that it was in poor condition. He notices that its eyes were 'gelatised' and decided that it had white scour, a fatal disease and should not have been transported thus. He reported it to the RSPCA. The Welshpool station master saw the animal and refused to tranship it, sending for the farmer to take it back. Evidence was given that it had been  born partially blind, which accounted for the condition of its eyes and had not been injured during its train journey."

Peter Johnson, 'The Welshpool and Llanfair Light Railway: The Story of a Welsh Rural Byway' (Barnsley, Pen and Sword, 2020) p.137

 

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

I am not an expert on cattle farming but I think it is worth noting that not all cattle/animal journeys are the same and the type of animal traffic will depend on the type of farming and types of farm in the area.

 

So, for the industrial West Midlands c. 1902, I suspect I should be looking at beef cattle en route to the slaughterhouse. (It's no coincidence the the road that runs parallel to the Great Western to the west of the Caversham Road bridge in Reading is Abattoirs Road, though awkwardly the cattle dock was on the other side of the line. The cattle market was adjacent, but I think accessed from Great Knollys Street.) There would be considerable competition from American beef imported through Liverpool - carried in refrigerator meat vans. But there would also, I'm sure, by some trans-Brummagen dairy cattle traffic between the green pastures of Cheshire and Staffordshire, and those of Warwickshire, Worcestershire, Gloucestershire, and Herefordshire, some of which would come the Midland's way, in despite of the best efforts of the LNWR and GWR traffic canvassers.

 

I wonder where the principal cattle markets of the West Midlands were at this period?

Edited March 12, 2023 by Compound2632

[brumtb]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So, for the industrial West Midlands c. 1902, I suspect I should be looking at beef cattle en route to the slaughterhouse. (It's no coincidence the the road that runs parallel to the Great Western to the west of the Caversham Road bridge in Reading is Abattoirs Road, though awkwardly the cattle dock was on the other side of the line. The cattle market was adjacent, but I think accessed from Great Knollys Street.) There would be considerable competition from American beef imported through Liverpool - carried in refrigerator meat vans. But there would also, I'm sure, by some trans-Brummagen dairy cattle traffic between the green pastures of Cheshire and Staffordshire, and those of Warwickshire, Worcestershire, Gloucestershire, and Herefordshire, some of which would come the Midland's way, in despite of the best efforts of the LNWR and GWR traffic canvassers.

 

I wonder where the principal cattle markets of the West Midlands were at this period?

Still looking at the wider West Midlands but info on Birmingham markets here:

The Markets of Birmingham – The Iron Room (wordpress.com)

Economic and Social History: Markets and Fairs | British History Online (british-history.ac.uk)

History - Birmingham Wholesale Market

Livestock To Market | Birmingham History Forum

 

I find Birmingham markets are a fascinating area to look at in terms of social history and sources of railway traffic.

Tony

[kitpw]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I wonder where the principal cattle markets of the West Midlands were at this period?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40561921?read-now=1&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents THE LIVESTOCK MARKETS OF ENGLAND AND WALES

You may need to sign in to JSTOR to read the article which is dated to 1931.

 

[fulton]

11 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

Have you ever heard of someone suffocating in a tent?

Unfortunately yes, has been cases  of people taking a BBQ in to keep warm, with deadly results.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, fulton said:

Unfortunately yes, has been cases  of people taking a BBQ in to keep warm, with deadly results.

 

No steam heat in cattle trucks. 

 

The winter-time sheeting of trucks carrying shorn sheep etc. was to provide some degree of protection from the worst of the weather for the poor shivering beasts. As to horses, my understanding is that they are easily distressed if they can see out when being transported - the too-rapidly changing scene I suppose - when one sees a two-horse trailer being towed by a Landrover or similar, the horses are always in head first so all one sees is a fine view of their hindquarters.

 

Cattle are made of sterner stuff:

 

One misty, moisty, morning,
when cloudy was the weather,
there I met an old man,
clothed all in leather.
Clothed all in leather,
with a cap under his chin.
How do you do?
And how do you do?
And how do you do again?

[The Stationmaster]

On 10/03/2023 at 19:15, Sabato said:

I'm not sure that's entirely true, Paul. I remember  hearing an interview (on Radio 4 I think) with a BR stockman employed at Liverpool/Birkenhead on the Irish cattle traffic (the last cattle traffic handled by BR ?). I have an LMS text book,   Goods Station Working, and what the stockman recalled matched most of what was covered in the book on livestock. Of course, a grade of stockman, wouldn't necessarily be employed at a goods yard with only weekly cattle market traffic.

 

I also seem to recall something about the customer loading the stock, under the supervision of railwayman.

Irish shipment animals were one reason why certain stations were retained for cattle traffic especially at the English ports which dealt with the ships arriving from Ireland.  I don't know when the live cattle traffic ceased to pass by rail but one of the last live animal imports from Ireland to be handled by rail were donkeys coming in via Fishguard and then forwarded, in cattle wagons, to Reading.

[Brinkly]

Little bit of modelling of horses here. Not quite cattle but very interesting stuff:

 

 

13 minutes of easy and interesting watching. 
 

All the best,

 

Nick.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So, for the industrial West Midlands c. 1902, I suspect I should be looking at beef cattle en route to the slaughterhouse. (It's no coincidence the the road that runs parallel to the Great Western to the west of the Caversham Road bridge in Reading is Abattoirs Road, though awkwardly the cattle dock was on the other side of the line. The cattle market was adjacent, but I think accessed from Great Knollys Street.) There would be considerable competition from American beef imported through Liverpool - carried in refrigerator meat vans. But there would also, I'm sure, by some trans-Brummagen dairy cattle traffic between the green pastures of Cheshire and Staffordshire, and those of Warwickshire, Worcestershire, Gloucestershire, and Herefordshire, some of which would come the Midland's way, in despite of the best efforts of the LNWR and GWR traffic canvassers.

 

I wonder where the principal cattle markets of the West Midlands were at this period?

Yes - the abattoir was indeed in Abattoir Road although I can't recall if it could be accessed from the cattle market, which was, and is, accessed from Great Knollys St.   The abayyoir repottedly closed in 1996 and livestock aubction ended at around the same  according to one web source but I suspect it might have been earlier.  Most, ?all?  of the animal sales there in later years - had little nothing at all to do with animals going for slaughter but were basically the normal market type of sale between breeders and farmers.  Cattle lorries in the markets parking area were a common site in the 1970s and possibly into the '80s although y then the market was very much heading on other directions as Thimbleby & Shorland built up different types of sale having started to diversify under Miles' Thimbleby's lead back in the 1970s (when my dad did a lot of specialist valuing for him).  There used to be an excellent weekly(?) farmers' produce market there in the1980s/90s 

 

As mentioned previously the last lve animal traffic through Reading cattle dock was donkeys brought over from Ireland (as rescue animals).