Black 5's and Castles

[AyJay]

A bit different to "Cabbages and Kings"

Last week, I found a 'Pendennis Castle' on a traders stall, and I really fancy having a model of that particular locomotive (long story).

However, I realised that it was an Airfix and tender driven.  Had a couple of them, ran badly, got rid of them!

When looking on the internet, I found that Hornby did release a Pendennis Castle about 20 years ago.

So in case I happen to find one:

Would any owner of one care to comment on the quality of this loco in terms of appearance, build quality and running?

Does it lend itself well to having a DCC chip installed?

 

Now onto the Black 5.  We all know Hornby is pushing this anticipated release.  But not sure if I want to wait and it's pricy.

So same question.  Anyone care to comment on the previous release of a Black 5?

Thank you.

[Hilux5972]

25 minutes ago, AyJay said:

A bit different to "Cabbages and Kings"

Last week, I found a 'Pendennis Castle' on a traders stall, and I really fancy having a model of that particular locomotive (long story).

However, I realised that it was an Airfix and tender driven.  Had a couple of them, ran badly, got rid of them!

When looking on the internet, I found that Hornby did release a Pendennis Castle about 20 years ago.

So in case I happen to find one:

Would any owner of one care to comment on the quality of this loco in terms of appearance, build quality and running?

Does it lend itself well to having a DCC chip installed?

 

Now onto the Black 5.  We all know Hornby is pushing this anticipated release.  But not sure if I want to wait and it's pricy.

So same question.  Anyone care to comment on the previous release of a Black 5?

Thank you.

Personally, I’d look for the newer castle model and just renumber it with etched plates. Would only need a transfer for the buffer beam number. 
The current black 5 is a pretty good model, but of course the new one will be the best so the choice is yours in the end. 

[Wheatley]

Current Black 5 good points - dimensionally accurate, covers all major variants of wheelbase, boiler types, tender types and liveries, runs well, no mazak rot issues as far as I remember. 

 

Not so good points - there a weird ledge under the tender that once seen can't be unseen (not straightforward to fix), that's the major one.  Front buffers are slightly too high for some reason, no motion bracket but less noticeable than on GWR types,  bogie wheels are generic and crude (5 minute fix with Gibsons), all the tenders have riveted rear panels even on the ones which should be welded (5 mins but needs touching in), no jnjector pipework under the cab but it's largely hidden by the steps if you add it, a few smaller details could be tweaked but nothing show stopping. Can be light footed but you should be able to get some lead in the boiler if it's not full of decoder. I've got 8 and I don't intend to replace any of them with the new one. I might add some ...

[MikeParkin65]

On 08/03/2023 at 18:14, Wheatley said:

Current Black 5 good points - dimensionally accurate, covers all major variants of wheelbase, boiler types, tender types and liveries, runs well, no mazak rot issues as far as I remember. 

 

Not so good points - there a weird ledge under the tender that once seen can't be unseen (not straightforward to fix), that's the major one.  Front buffers are slightly too high for some reason, no motion bracket but less noticeable than on GWR types,  bogie wheels are generic and crude (5 minute fix with Gibsons), all the tenders have riveted rear panels even on the ones which should be welded (5 mins but needs touching in), no jnjector pipework under the cab but it's largely hidden by the steps if you add it, a few smaller details could be tweaked but nothing show stopping. Can be light footed but you should be able to get some lead in the boiler if it's not full of decoder. I've got 8 and I don't intend to replace any of them with the new one. I might add some ...

Agree with all of that and would add the Brassmasters detail kit raises the model almost to current standards for £25 and a coupl of evenings work. Likewise will probably add the new model to the existing fleet rather than replace any. 

[DCB]

On 08/03/2023 at 17:54, Hilux5972 said:

Personally, I’d look for the newer castle model and just renumber it with etched plates. Would only need a transfer for the buffer beam number. 
The current black 5 is a pretty good model, but of course the new one will be the best so the choice is yours in the end. 

Another vote for the latest Castle.  It has metal slide bars and a number of other improvements.  The Airfix / Dapol  Castle  had County size wheels 25mm and  so did the early Hornby version.  There was a clear line of projeny from Airfix tender drive to Dapol, Spur gear ringfield loco drive to Hornby and the mouldings look very similar but won't interchange without a Hacksaw.  I have a Pendennis from around 1980  which needs a loco drive chassis and I'm still po0ndering, Its the first body I resprayed and lined so sentimental.   At some stage Hornby used the Mainline 2251 Tender chassis and the tenders were around 1.5mm too low.  Hornby  continued the fragile plastic slide bar assembly until the early 20xx  and some are still on sale as new.  I would and have paid  the extra 50% for a late metal slidebar chassis Castle.   The narrow scalloped inside cylinder cover was only on 4073-92 I believe  so the range of models  is limited... Changing name and side number plates is a doddle   but the front one is a swine.   Only the lime green castle had a brass one

[Buhar]

On the Black 5, the section under the smokebox is too far forward but otherwise the loco body is pretty good with a nice range of variants.  Can't remember if the short and long firebox options are covered properly.  I agree about the tender ledge.  Larry Goddard (Coachman) pointed it out to me years ago and it's become a bugbear to me.  Please Hornby, order a few hundred extra tenders in LMS black and crimson (I believe other modern liveries might be relevant) and make them available separately.  

 

Alan

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

A most convenient post as I'm wishing to model a scrap loco consist I photographed at Chesterfield consisting of two black 5's and an 8F.

It would seem these runs are suitable for my needs, I know there are differences in smokebox lengths and other such things to distinguish loco's apart, but it would seem for my needs these will do me quite well, so which Hornby R numbers are the relevant ones please, and in the same vein, what would be a suitable 8F at the right price?

As mine will be unpowered, if anyone has any knackered non runners I could be interested also.

 

Mike.

[Mad McCann]

As it happens, my new layout project has a requirement for Black Fives again. I'm aware of the new tooling underway but I'm happily sticking with the last variant for my needs.

The pros and cons have been highlighted already and my intent is to deal with the listed shortcomings and add a few refinements like Gibson bogie wheels and the Brassmasters detail parts.

I have gone this route with Black Fives in the past and had very satisfactory results therefore I see no need to change.

The new models may be nice but they're a little out of my league pricewise now and in any case, I prefer the engagement and ultimate sense of fulfillment obtained by taking the scenic route and putting a bit of my own heart and soul into creating a high quality finescale OO five. 🙂

 

Davy

Edited March 13, 2023 by Mad McCann

[Jason T]

On 09/03/2023 at 21:49, MikeParkin65 said:

Agree with all of that and would add the Brassmasters detail kit raises the model almost to current standards for £25 and a coupl of evenings work. Likewise will probably add the new model to the existing fleet rather than replace any. 

A rather glaring error with the current Black Five that once seen you can’t unsee, is the lack of space under the smokebox; not too horrendous to resolve if you’re brave with a pin vice, craft knife and files.

The erroneous ‘shelf’ on the tender is actually pretty easy to remove and once done, not only does it improve the look exponentially, but I have found the body sits much better on the chassis.

 

 It was Timara Easter who helpfully guided me through the above but since he did, I have done it to all of my Black Fives (and all Hornby Stanier tenders).

 

 I am sure that I took some photos of what to do, I will try and dig them out.

[Buhar]

27 minutes ago, Jason T said:

I am sure that I took some photos of what to do, I will try and dig them out.

Please do.

Alan 

[Jason T]

31 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Please do.

Alan 

I looked through about 30 pages of my Bacup thread and couldn’t find what I wanted but if you look on the below, you can see that I have removed the erroneous plastic below the smokebox. I basically attacked it with a pin vice and then with a fresh-bladed Swann Morton, trimmed it back to the profile of the bottom of the smokebox.

 

 I will need to take a look when I get home to confirm but pretty sure you need to glue in a piece of Plastikard somewhere to hide a hole but this was really easy to do.

 

In the second shot, you can see the tender with the shelf removed. The purpose of showing two Black Fives was to demonstrate the difference that making a new tender drawbar makes (a bit of brass with holes drilled in it; I managed to fashion the wipers for the tender pickups out of circuit board and brass strip too, enabling the loco and tender to be separated).

 

 The shiny Five, as well as all the above being done, has also had the Brassmasters treatment. I think the current model brushes up incredibly well.

 

[Jason T]

I found the photos on Photobucket; quite a few and I hope they are in order.

 

First, drill a series of holes in the area under the smokebox to allow it to be removed.

Next, using a scalpel, remove the area between the uprights on the frames and the footplate, including along the sides of the smokebox.

Then, neaten up with files, etc.

Next, trim back the front mounting bolt surround and insert Plastikard shaped to the profile of the bottom of the smokebox.

Last, neaten up, paint up, done.

[Jason T]

I have also found the tender photos.

 

But first, a before and after. You can see (and then never unsee) the shelf below the tender sides, above the springs

 

 

[Jason T]

1. Remove the body and then cut off/remove the parts shown next to the chassis.

 

2. I used a vernier gauge to determine the depth of the shelf and then scribed along the top using the gauge to denote a cutting line.

 

3. carefully cut along the line, taking extra care near the springs. Tidy up afterwards.

 

4. Plastikard needs to be glued to the chassis to hold the tender sides in the correct position and stop them bowing inwards (it actually improves the rigidity over that of the unaltered tender)

 

5. Put it all back together again and you have a much better looking Stanier tender.

 

[Buhar]

Many, many thanks, Jason.

Alan 

[Jason T]

I seem to have taken over this thread a bit (sorry) but here’s a shot of one of my Black Fives with the above done, Brassmasters detailing added, Comet bogie and front steps, Gibson Stanier pattern wheels on the bogie and tender and, since this was taken, converted to EM.

 

it still needs painting and weathering!

[MikeParkin65]

4 minutes ago, Jason T said:

I seem to have taken over this thread a bit (sorry) but here’s a shot of one of my Black Fives with the above done, Brassmasters detailing added, Comet bogie and front steps, Gibson Stanier pattern wheels on the bogie and tender and, since this was taken, converted to EM.

 

it still needs painting and weathering!

Bugg*r   - was thinking I could ignore the tender issues! but with the shelf removed and the Gibsons added it is improved way more than I imagined.  Nice subtle weathering on that retaining wall too :)

[Jason T]

5 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Bugg*r   - was thinking I could ignore the tender issues! but with the shelf removed and the Gibsons added it is improved way more than I imagined.  Nice subtle weathering on that retaining wall too :)

That’s the problem; when you see the issues they grate on you and you just know you have to tackle them. I truly believe that the current model brushes up to be a stunning model with a bit of effort.

 

As for the wall, thanks. The whole layout (Bacup) was weathered very similarly through necessity; grotty mill town.

 

 

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, Jason T said:

That’s the problem; when you see the issues they grate on you and you just know you have to tackle them. I truly believe that the current model brushes up to be a stunning model with a bit of effort.

 

As for the wall, thanks. The whole layout (Bacup) was weathered very similarly through necessity; grotty mill town.

 

 

Before I saw your location my mind identified it straight away as West Riding. Work of art  - lovely :)