Dapol Autocoach

[Mike_Walker]

33 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The fitting of auto-gear was for specific duties in South Wales and only applied to a small number of them.

 

Except 5572 spent some time in Cornwall working the Fowey auto.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Rhydgaled said:

Are these DEFINITELY the diagrams represented by the relevant models; because I think I have seen the Bachmann one referred to with two diagram numbers separated by a slash (eg. A38/A43 although I cannot remember the exact numbers given) before now and the Hornby/Airfix one I think I've seen variously described as an A30, A27 and A28? With the Hornby one, is it the case that the model is of one of those types but the low-fi nature of the model (lack of flush glazing) makes it look similar to a different diagram?

 

The Airby/Hornfix auto trailer is a bit of a mess (but it was ground-breaking RTR of astonishing scale accuracy and detail when Airfix introduced it).  There are three diagrams of fairly similar all-steel Collet auto-trailers, in chronological succession A27 (56', 7' Collett bogies, flush driver's doors), A28 (59'6", 7' Collett bogies, recessed driver's doors) and A30 (59'6", 9' Collett bogies, flush driver's doors).  A29 was a steam railmotor rebuild.  The Airfix model has recessed driver's doors and 9' Collett bogies, a neverwazza, but has always been numbered as an A30, and I tend to regard it as such, or at least that such was the intention...

 

The A38 as modelled by Bachmann is pretty much spot on for an A38.  There was an A39 with the same body and external appearance but 'bus' type seating instead of the sideways-facing and bay seating of the A38, which was similar to earlier diagrams' internal arrangments.  The first two A39s were named, Wren and Thrush, and were IIRC built in BR crimson livery.  These trailers were designed under Hawksworth prior to Nationalisation but put into service after Nationalisation, first one appearing in 1949.  None ever carried GW or any chocolate/cream livery in service, though this has been done on preserved examples.  If you wanted an A39, it is an easy 'conversion' from the Baccy A38, a new interior and renumbering is all that's needed; I think Cambridge Custom do the transfers.

 

There was some confusion over auto-trailer livery in early BR days.  The first instruction, 1/1/48-31/1/48 was to continue painting rolling stock in whatever livery you had been using on 31/12/47, without company initials or emblems but with the new BR regional prefixes to the RN, in the 1947 style.  From 1/6/48 the new standard liveries were available and non-gangwayed stock was to be painted in plain crimson with BR Gill Sans letters and numbers.  The WR, however, continuing a tradition of painting auto-trailers as saloons, ignored this (whetherby error or mendacity is not known) and began releasing them from the paintshops in crimson/cream (blood'n'custard') livery as if they were gangwayed stock; there were some auto-trailers that were gangwayed within twin-sets...

 

The story, and for all I know it may be true, is that one day in 1950 Mr.Riddles, the CME, was passing through Paddington about his business and noticed one, resulting in a letter to the GM WR asking what his best main line express gangwayed stock livery was doing on a lowly auto-trailer, which resulted in a cessation of the practice. 

 

A43 was a 1953 rebuild of non-gangwayed Collett flat-ended compartment brake thirds, provided with auto gear and a driving cab at the brake end.  This was a flat-ended cab with a single driver's window, and the coaches rapidly became known as 'Cyclops' trailers.  There were some matching all-thirds given auto-linkage but no cabs, as A44s, but these were less common.  This was in connection with the introduction of a new South Wales Valleys timetable that extended auto-working in the area considerably, much of it on lines with full-height platforms and fully-staffed stations, so there was no need for the retractable steps and open saloon layout of earlier trailers.  There were some similar conversions pre-war for the Lydney-Sharpness Severn Bridge shuttle service, but those had recessed drivers' doors.  The 4575s given auto-gear in 1953 were also done in connection with this new South Wales service, but were not restricted to working with the new trailers.  These locos and the Cyclops trailers were dispersed to other services following closures and deiselisation in South Wales*, and, along with A38/9s, were the last auto-trailers in service.  None of the Cyclops have been preserved, and neither they nor the coaches they were converted from have ever been available in RTR form, though Comet do kits.

 

*Auto working with A38s and Cyclops trailers continued until 1964 with 64xx on the Porthcawl Branch, the last of the South Wales auto services.

Edited December 2, 2023 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

On 11/10/2023 at 01:46, lofty1966 said:

Well you just screwed that up Ol' Froot.

That makes at least three.

Don't forget the A27 you're always banging on about was a lot shorter than your other favourite, the A30.

 

The A27 was a 56'6" trailer, but there were shorter, such as the 55' A44 intermediate non-driving compartment trailers and the Clifton Downs.

[lofty1966]

11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

The A27 was a 56'6" trailer, but there were shorter, such as the 55' A44 intermediate non-driving compartment trailers and the Clifton Downs.

Indeed there were.

A myriad of diagrams that are not even around as kits!

[The Johnster]

To be fair to both RTR and kit manufacturers, auto-trailers are a bit of a minefield, and many diagrams only existed in small numbers.  If you were to produce the largest single group built it would be the panelled 70' A26, a steam railmotor rebuild which survived into the mid-50s, but mitagating against this one would be the length, which is less than ideal for your typical BLT layout...  Kudos to Dapol for producing the N, albeit the original choice was Lionheart's in 7mm.  The N is perhaps more typical of the earlier panelled trailers, but there are still as you say huge gaps, which are unlikely to be ever filled as RTR or kit.  Trailers with bolection mouldings around the windows looked very different, there were matchboarded trailers (some are available as 3D print 'scratch aid' bodyshells from Rue d'Etropal on Shapeways, bit expensive).  The GW initially grouped them into 'suburbran' and 'branch' trailers before standardising on the 'branch' type the difference being the provision of vans space on the 'branch' types, and some of the earlier 'suburbans' had entry for the passengers through the drivers' or guards' end doors, no central vestibule, both panelled and matchboard.  There were some clerestory coach conversions as well.  There were 70 different diagrams in all, not including some very early 4- and 6-wheel conversions to run with railmotors.

 

Kits are available from Comet for A30, A38/9, and A43/4, Roxey for the compartment A1/2 (Clifton Downs) and the ancient Keyser whitemetal A31.  This one was a railmotor rebuild and featured bogies at different distances from the ends, funfunfunfunfun...

Edited December 3, 2023 by The Johnster

[melmerby]

The wackiest GWR trailer was the experimental one off diagram "O" 70 footer from 1907, which consisted of transverse seats only with a sliding door alongside each seat row., the guard had a lever which operated all the doors on either side simultaneously.

It was rebuilt after just 5 years, into conventional form with a mix of transverse & longtitudal seating with partions, as diagram "S"

 

It was a trial to see whether they could speed up passenger egress on busy suburban routes. It wasn't replicated.

Edited December 3, 2023 by melmerby

[The Johnster]

Yeah, mad.  The flip-over tram-type bench seats didn't quite extend the full width of the coach and the guard could shuffle sideways selling tickets.  It spent some time at Swansea Malefant in the 50s in crimson/cream, very odd looker from the sides originally with recessed sliding doors a bit 'concertina' style, and later flush fitted slam doors with only two windows between each one.  IIRC the central bench seats, on a raised floor, were retained.  It looked draughty and uncomfortable.  Another insanity was the Plymouth Area twin sets, 70 footers gangwayed within sets.  The 'intermediates' had driving cabs and windows in the driving end despite the central gangway, fully equipped, regulator handle, brake setter, handbrake standard, foot-treadle operated bell.  I doubt if any of these cabs were ever used...

 

IIRC the 'branch' trailers had upholstered seats while the 'suburbans', including the O mentioned above, had wooden or slatted wooden benches with 'tip over' backs.  Many of these torture chambers lasted into BR days, and one cannot imagine that their regular punters shed many  tears when they were replaced...

 

The TVR had some gangwayed twin-sets which the GW inherited, removing the TV's Heath Robinson overhead wire and pulley linkage and replacing it with their own.  These had folding gate doorways with end and central vestibules, a bit like the LSWR push-pull stock. 

[tomparryharry]

A slight aside from this. Taff Vale 28 had the distinctive twin sliding ventilators to allow the 'aerials'  push pull to work, via the cab roof. Sadly, the cab roof was plated over at Llangollen, where the staff failed to understand the significance.  Despite the locomotive being class 01, the cab structure might indeed be an earlier M class The giveaway being a plated-over section of the cab-sheet, where the vacuum ejector pipework passes forward to the smokebox.

 

The extant boiler has probably saved the locomotive to its present day. the firebox crown is festooned with a multitude of flanges & takeoffs. I wondered about this for ages, and I finally realised the boiler was designed to be a universal fitment, being compatible  for Vacuum, air, and steam heat. There are photographs depicting a Barry Railway cab layout, with such an arrangement.

 

Here endeth the lesson....

[The Johnster]

2024 now, and I think it’s time for a bump to ask if there is any new info regarding arrival time of these coaches.  Time I got on with working up the K’s A31 that will represent W26 to run with W37…

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

2024 now, and I think it’s time for a bump to ask if there is any new info regarding arrival time of these coaches.  Time I got on with working up the K’s A31 that will represent W26 to run with W37…

Do you mean 206 rather than 26?

The A31 conversions started at 202 and 26 is a 70' vehicle.

[The Johnster]

Sorry Kieth, I didn't make it clear enough, mea culpa.  I've pre-ordered a Dapol Diagram N, W 37 W, in BR crimson/cream, and am looking forward to taking delivery when it gets here.  This coach was one of two Diagram N trailers that were among the five transferred to Tondu for the beginning of auto services in the area in connection with the revised Cardiff Valleys Division 'regular interval' timetable introduced from September 1953*; this was a forerunner of the current Valley Lines timetable.  These original five were gas-lit trailers, sent to Tondu because it was thought that the slow running and short distances in the area would be problematic for electrically lit stock (though loco-hauled electrically lit stock had been in use in the area for many years without problems).  One gets the impression that their original depots were happy to get rid of them.  It was later found that electrically-lit trailers were fine in the area, even on the Porthcawl Branch where vicious curvature demanded very low speeds.

 

Photos in the John Hodge/Stuart Davies 'Tondu Valleys' books show that W 37 W ran with a diagram A10 trailer, W 26, during their time at TDU.  W 26 was the A10's running number, not A26 the 70' trailer Diagram number.  W 206 was indeed a Diagram A31 trailer.  So, I want to at least have a shot at modelling this train, and there is little chance of the Diagram A10 trailer ever being available in RTR form, at least not in my lifetime, and TTBOMK there are no kits available.  So, as I have a built K's whitemetal A31 that I bought off the Bay a couple of years ago, and the A31 and A10 trailers are not dissimilar in appearancce (they are both panelled trailers with central vestibule doors), with the only obvious difference being the order of large and small saloon windows, I have decided to repaint, work up, and renumber my A31 as Diagram A10 W 26.  W 26 was in BR crimson/cream at TDU.

 

This shouldn't be too difficult, but is quite a bit of work.  The old paint must be stripped, a lot of the whitemetal cast detail removed and replaced by scratchbuilt detail (stuff like lamp irons, footsteps, and the bell are available as retrofit items, but the buzzer cable terminals and some other details will have to be cobbled up out of whatever material is suitable), and repainted. I need to make some attempt at glazing that is not as far inset as that on the whitemetal K's body.  W 26 ran on 'fishbelly' bogies, as did W 209, the A31 currently modelled, not the American pattern that are supplied with the K's kit.  In fact there were two versions of the A31, originally a steam railmotor, a batch built at Swindon and another batch outsourced up the road to Gloucester RC&W.  The Gloucester vehicles were distinguished by double inward-opening doors for the passenger vestibule, while the Swindon batch had the usual wide inward-opening vestibule door that was common on saloon trailers.  None of the Gloucester-built trailers had American pattern bogies, though both types had fishbellies.  When they were rebuilt as trailers, some of both types were given Collett 7' bogies. 

 

It gets confusing, I know!  An idiosycracy of the A31s was that, owing to their SRM origins, the bogie pivots were at different distances inward from the buffer beam, further in at the 'loco'/luggage compartment end, particularly noticeable with the shorter Collett 7' bogies.  I will have to repostion the luggage end bogie pivot for W 27.  I have already made up a floor and interior for this coach.

 

It may of course all go horribly wrong, which will be an excuse to buy Dapol's unlined maroon W 38 W.

 

 

*This was the reason for the conversion of a number of 4575 small prairies with auto-gear, and the rebuild of Collett flat-ended non-gangwayed coaches as the A43 and A44 'Cyclops' compartment trailers.

[The Johnster]

One way it may go horribly wrong is that the A10 was the outer, driving, trailer of the set, and smooth running, especially propelling, may depend on how well I can ballast the diagram N.  The K's A31 that is to be my ersatz A10 placekeeper is a bit of a lump; two of them are at the absolute limit of the haulage capacity of a Bachmann 4575, manages on plain track but the slight extra drag of flangeways is enough to induce wheelspin!  The kit is whitemetal, and relies on being made up into a box shape for it's structural integrity, so it's thick whitemetal.  And putting a floor in and incorporating interior detail, even plastic seating, cancels out any weight benefit you got from replacing the original incorrect American pattern K's metal bogies (now happily running under a renumbered Mainline Siphon H) with 3D printed fishbellies from Stafford Road on Shapeways. 

 

The thick whitemetal is going to be a problem in terms of flush glazing as well.  An A10 is not flush-glazed in the same way as a Hawksworth coach, but the glazing wasn't as far in as all that either.  Recessed about an inch, like most panelled auto trailers, and the whitemetal thickness is at least scale twice that.  As it will be running with the Dapol N, which I have every reason to believe has it's glazing correctly inset, the look is going to be 'off' a bit, and the cream livery won't help.  Plan is to undercoat the K's coat in as dark and flat a colour as possible and only paint the outside of the window and toplight reveals in cream for about a third of a mm, in the hope that it won't look glaringly obvious from at least some angles. 

 

In fact I've set myself a bit of a challenge with this project, attempting to pass off a crude 1960s kit offering that was perhaps not K's proudest moment when it was first produced, though it is pretty much to scale, as a model that can look reasonable in company with a cutting-edge modern product!  Wish me luck, chaps, I'll need it! 

 

First step, Nitromors!

[The Johnster]

On 02/12/2023 at 11:35, Mike_Walker said:

 

Except 5572 spent some time in Cornwall working the Fowey auto.

 

Most of them were cascaded away from South Wales as the work was taken on by 116 dmus over 1958-60 or the services were withdrawn.  Tondu's were replaced by 64xx when 'rationalisation' re-routed the Bridgend-Abergwynfi service to Blaengwynfi, which is less of a gradient.  Nantymoel had a pretty steep final pitch as well, quarter mile at 1 in 27, but that closed to passenger traffic in 1958. 

 

More than a few returned to South Wales for scrapping, though, some of which of course survived at Dai Woodham's and are now preserved.

[The Johnster]

I'll take the response to my bump question six days ago as 'no', then.  Oh, well, it'll get here when it gets here I suppose...

[Dunsignalling]

51 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I'll take the response to my bump question six days ago as 'no', then.  Oh, well, it'll get here when it gets here I suppose...

Most recent update on Hattons stated January to March 2024. So not long to wait. 

 

John

[melmerby]

On 06/01/2024 at 03:27, The Johnster said:

I have decided to repaint, work up, and renumber my A31 as Diagram A10 W 26.  W 26 was in BR crimson/cream at TDU.

Sorry Johnster, it is you who is confused.

W26W is a diagram K, K1 (orY - little difference*) 70' trailer built as such in 1905 on lot 1103, it was never a SRM. It also does not have central doors.

It's bogies were changed to 9' American in June 1930 and it was withdrawn in Oct 1953, just as the Valley services were converted to Autotrains.

 

Information from various books, especially Lewis's Autotrailer books, including photos to prove it.

 

*all to do with the partition positions which changed during their life.

Edited January 11 by melmerby

[The Johnster]

11 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Most recent update on Hattons stated January to March 2024. So not long to wait. 

 

John

 

Tx, John.  If nothing happens in the meantime I'll leave it til the end of March before I ask again. 

 

10 hours ago, melmerby said:

Sorry Johnster, it is you who is confused.

 

So I checked, and you are right, it is me that is confused!  The A10 in quesstion is not W 26 but W 28, confirmed in John Lewis and the Hodge/Davies Tondu Valleys books.  No apology needed, I'm the one who should be apologising...

 

 

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

So I checked, and you are right, it is me that is confused!  The A10 in quesstion is not W 26 but W 28, confirmed in John Lewis and the Hodge/Davies Tondu Valleys books.  No apology needed, I'm the one who should be apologising...

No, No, No. W28 is also an K/K1/Y, all of 25-28 are the similar 70' ex SRM trailers

 

A10 are 125, 128 - 133

Edited January 12 by melmerby

[The Johnster]

Ok, let's see if I can straighten myself out with this. 

 

The initial allocation of sevem auto-trailers to Tondu in September 1953, all gas-let and all from within Newport Division, were:-

 

. W 22, Diag. J

. W 36 & W 37, Diag. N

. W 128, Diag. A10, the one we are discussing.

. W 142, Diag A20, ex-Cardiff Rly.

. W 143, Diag A21, ex-Cardiff Rly.

. W 3338, Diag A2, Clifton Downs.

 

My attempted A10 conversion from a K's A31 will, therefore, be W 128.  It is photographed on page 73 of Hodge/Davies Tondu Valleys vol.2,  at Nantymoel, two shots, with loco 5545, dated 14/8/54, and loco 5560, undated. The photos are both front 3/4 shots from the western side of the branch looking down the valley, and W 128 is furthest from the camera, W 37 being the intermediate.  W 128 is erroneously referred to in the captions as A10 number W 28, a cause of confusion for this poor muddled old soul; I've found several anomalies in these generally very informative and well-researched books.  Both photos show the coaches in crimson/cream livery which I believe they carried until withdrawal.  W 128 is a bit vague in the 5545 shot but is nearer the lens at a better angle, and highlighted by afternoon sun, in the 5560 photo.  This shows it on what I believe to be 9' fishbelly bogies with footboards (W 37 is on Americans).  It has a distinct upwards bow in both shots, presumably empty of passengers...

 

There are no photos in them of W 22, the Cardiff Rly. pair (a gangwayed set, apparently earmarked for the Porthcawl service, as were the rather elegant* TVR gangwayed twin-sets later allox TDU; there are several photos of these with enough information to make a stab at scratchbuilding them), or W 3338.  I have a Roxey W 3338 at Cwmdimbath, modelled on a photo of it at Pontypridd in Lewis, couple years earlier, and because it had an unusual livery with single straw lining (Lewis describes it as unofficial), I'd like confirmation that it ran in this form at Tondu.  The lower panels were plated in in the Pontypridd photo and a couple taken at Cardiff (Queen St) carriage sidings, and I have yet to do this modification to the Roxey.  It was a lovely coach in it's day but must have been a bit rough at withdrawal (for the second time) in early 1954, the last of it's type.  There is a shot in Lewis of Diag. N no. W 36 at Bridgend, in what looks like unlined maroon livery but it was clearly a very dull and wet day.  Lewis uses 'maroon' to describe unlined crimson livery, which is confusing, but W 36 survived long enough to possibly recieve unlined maroon.

 

I am surprised that there are as many photos of what were fairly mundane workings in a remote part of South Wales as there are, but some things seem to have eluded the 1950s camera. 

 

 

*Big windows, curtains, recessed vestibules (painful, but you can get a cream for this condition nowadays. I'm told) and upholstered seats equals 'elegant Edwardian luxury' in Johnster's book, especially in maroon livery...

 

[melmerby]

That's it, I think you've got it!

 

Yes, No W128 (diag A10) was at Tondu from 16th Sept 1953 until 27th July 1957 and was condemmed in August.

 

The A10 aren't too far from an A31 but you'll need to do some hacking.

The bogie centres are different, with the A31 at 41' 6½" and the A10 at 38' (It appears to be more or less symmetrical, unlike the A31).

 

[tomparryharry]

Just a slight enquiry from here..

 

I understand Hattons are (were) partially involved in the production of the auto trailers. Naturally, this was before the sad news from Hattons this week. 

 

Is the project still ongoing? Mods can delete or upgrade as required.

Cheers,

Ian. 

[coeurdelyon]

Hi Ian,

No, Hattons were never involved with this project which is wholly produced by Dapol we are currently waiting for the fully lined decorated samples before production can start, however with CNY around the corner I fear we shall not sees these until mid February.

[The Johnster]

21 hours ago, melmerby said:

That's it, I think you've got it!

 

Yes, No W128 (diag A10) was at Tondu from 16th Sept 1953 until 27th July 1957 and was condemmed in August.

 

The A10 aren't too far from an A31 but you'll need to do some hacking.

The bogie centres are different, with the A31 at 41' 6½" and the A10 at 38' (It appears to be more or less symmetrical, unlike the A31).

 

 

Yes, the bogie pivot at the former engine end will have to be moved.  

Edited January 13 by The Johnster

[rprodgers]

Hopefully the Dapol version of crimson lake will match the Kernow steam rail motors.

Edited February 13 by rprodgers

[The Johnster]

Rails of Sheffield’s site has a ‘due in April/May’ section, and the autotrailers are not on it, so we’re gonna have to be patient a little longer. Plenty Hawthorn Leslie saddle tanks, but no diag Ns!