Dapol Autocoach

[The Outcast]

I didn't see this announcement till just now - this is a definite purchase for me at some point. 

 

Gosh, there's a hell of a lot of shiny new things to get for the layout I'm yet to build, eh? 

[Covkid]

On 18/03/2023 at 11:14, woodenhead said:

So we've had the Rapido B set and now the Autocoach from Dapol - finally GWR branchlines can enter the 21st Century.

 

Just need that 14xx model and a modern 57xx to complete the set.

 

Hopefully only the start !!!!

A Cambrian goods 0-6-0 would be rather nice as well as BR(W) built non corridors to match with the red box versions.

 

As you suggest though  GWR BLT is rockin 

 

I wonder if Dapol will eventually address the elephant in the room with the 0-4-2t wheel arrangement - and if they did how would they sell in OO.  Plenty of O versions.  Are they still available at Hattons ?  A quick look at their webpages suggests Hornby are releasing a Railroad plus version in GWR livery. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Covkid
.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

Hopefully only the start !!!!

A Cambrian goods 0-6-0 would be rather nice as well as BR(W) built non corridors to match with the red box versions.

 

As you suggest though  GWR BLT is rockin 

 

I wonder if Dapol will eventually address the elephant in the room with the 0-4-2t wheel arrangement - and if they did how would they sell in OO.  Plenty of O versions.  Are they still available at Hattons ?  A quick look at their webpages suggests Hornby are releasing a Railroad plus version in GWR livery. 

2721/1854 in pannier or saddle versions would be most welcome (preferably Pannier for me), but these aren’t really branch engines, bit heavy; 650 or 2021 probably better.  Metro or 517x, autofitted to run with the Diag. N, proper RTR 4-wheelers, preferably not the full end LBSC-type brakes (though the GW did have some) B-sets that are not E140s, 54xx, later series 64xx and 74xx.  By BR(W) non-corridors I assume you mean A43/A44 ‘cyclops’ auto trailers, which I’d certainly buy, and would be easy to produce in non-rebuilt non-auto form in GW liveries as well, but there are also Collett bowended and flatended non-gangwayed coaches not built in sets like the Hornby suburbans, ‘full fat’ Churchward toplights not Mainline & City, all suitable for branch use and the later 64’ non-gangwayed Hawksworth all-thirds and BR mk1 57 footers, often used as nstrengtheners.  
 

Nobody has yet attempted a matchboarded auto trailer, or a 70-footer though those are more associated with suburban work (the bulk of auto work was of this sort); there are numerous panelled trailers to be done.  And then there are the Dean non-gangwayed clerestories, not built for branch work but commonly enough used when they were cascaded by gangwayed stock and were still relatively modern, well into the thirties and beyond. 
 

Then there are pre-grouping constituent /absorbed locos and stock, especially the South Wales types, which lasted well into the 1950s.  Taff A and Rhymney R in particular along with stock and some very distinctive and attractive auto-trailers that lasted into BR days.  The Cambrian has been mentioned, and would be popular. 
 

You’re right, GW branch modelling is rockin now just…

Edited April 17, 2023 by The Johnster

[The Outcast]

Yeah, the amount of GWR/BR Western Region branchline stock coming out at the moment is staggering. I've definitely got to secure myself one of these and a Rapido B-Set for the branchline I've got planned for my 1960s layout. The only issue is I don't actually have anything to haul an autocoach yet, and Dapol haven't got anything to haul this, currently. One of the Rapido auto-fitted Small Prairie variants will likely be something I add to the tab when I eventually order a B-Set, and Bachmann do produce a 64xx, so there's available/soon to be available stock, but it's a shame there's no 14xx anywhere, unless Dapol are working on one of those in secret. 

 

I thought a decent 14xx and a revamped Collett Goods were the last things really to do for the GWR branch lines... Looking at the above post, that thought is put to shame. The Taff Valley A does look like a nice locomotive though, if someone came out with one in a BR livery, I'd certainly be tempted. 

 

Honestly, not branchline stock, but I'm surprised no manufacturer has done a slip-coach - that seems like something that should have been done by now considering all the one-offs we've been seeing as of late. Also, on a side-note - I wonder if Hornby's next coaching stock foray after the LNER Coronation coaches will be revamped GWR Centenary coaches? 

[Andy Keane]

It is surprising that there are no RTR four-coupled GWR tanks on the market given how many 517, Metro and 14xx locos were built and how long they lasted. I have one of the Hattons 14xx's and a kit built Metro plus an unbuilt 517 kit but none are really up to modern RTR standards. These could pull both the upcoming Dapol autocoaches and the Rapido B-sets. My vote would be for a 517 as these lasted over such a long period.

[Harlequin]

29 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

It is surprising that there are no RTR four-coupled GWR tanks on the market given how many 517, Metro and 14xx locos were built and how long they lasted. I have one of the Hattons 14xx's and a kit built Metro plus an unbuilt 517 kit but none are really up to modern RTR standards. These could pull both the upcoming Dapol autocoaches and the Rapido B-sets. My vote would be for a 517 as these lasted over such a long period.

 

I absolutely agree that a 517 would be a really great target for one of the new RTR teams to have a go at.

 

But I wouldn't say the Hattons 14xx was not up to modern RTR standards. It easily hit the mark for accuracy and detail - it was just the mechanicals that let it down.

 

[The Johnster]

Anyone who produces a 48/14/58xx would be able to use the chassis for a 517 as well, what’s not to like?  Metros are not so easy; IIRC they came in large or small with different wheelbases. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by The Johnster

[Edwardian]

On 18/04/2023 at 14:26, Harlequin said:

 

I absolutely agree that a 517 would be a really great target for one of the new RTR teams to have a go at.

 

But I wouldn't say the Hattons 14xx was not up to modern RTR standards. It easily hit the mark for accuracy and detail - it was just the mechanicals that let it down.

 

 

Hear, hear!

 

If you want the archetypal inter-war BLT, you need a panelled auto-coach [check!] and a 517!

 

I realise that many will be content to 'make do' with what's available. I realise people often model with a good dose of latitude (and why shouldn't they if they wish?). People will, for example, happily send GWR diesel railcars along their rural branch lines. Yet, if you do want prototypical stock for the 1930s BLT, you've already had a very long wait to this point, and you're still not there. 

 

The 4800 was not introduced until 1932 and it only slowly displaced the branch line 517s. For that popular western peninsular BLT, a brace went straight to Cornwall, but I don't think they became common until later; for instance, Ashburton was reliant wholly on 517s for its auto-workings until the first 4800 arrived in 1936. 

 

Add to that the fact that the Hattons model (leaving aside the mechanical issues and the lack of an ash-pan) does not tool for the as-built version, so, despite the use of the pre-shirt button livery, the model only really represents the class from, IIRC, c.1939/40, not much of an improvement on the top-feed fitted Airfix-Hornby version in terms of coverage.

 

Thus, not only would a 517 provide a more typical type for the classic GWR BLT, but would be the only accurate pre-War option as matters stand.  

 

Worth thinking about?

 

 

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

On 18/04/2023 at 15:23, The Johnster said:

Anyone who produces a 48/14/58xx would be able to use the chassis for a 517 as well, what’s not to like?  Metros are not so easy; IIRC they came in large or small with different wheelbases. 

There are a number of sources of 3D printed loco bodies to fit various r-t-r mechanisms, so persuading one of those suppliers to come up with one for a 517.

 

Trouble is, at present, there's only the Hornby (ex-Dapol) chassis in the frame, and that may be just too ancient and basic to be considered.

[melmerby]

On 18/04/2023 at 15:23, The Johnster said:

 Metros are not so easy; IIRC they came in large or small with different wheelbases. 

 

Taking all the possible variations you could probably have 20 or 30 different combinations

Although only normally classed as large or small there were several different tank sizes, then take into account cab variations, bunker variations rear spectacle plates (one at least had it the rear, not front, of the bunker.) connecting rods, condensing variations, early ones originally had inside axleboxes on the front wheels etc etc.

Then of course, one was a 2-4-2T!

[melmerby]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

Trouble is, at present, there's only the Hornby (ex-Dapol) chassis in the frame, and that may be just too ancient and basic to be considered.

Hornby, ex Dapol, ex Mainline, ex Airfix.

The body isn't too bad, although not as good as the Hattons one, but the chassis needs a good going over (complete redesign), whichever version.

[BVMR21]

Why not a GWR 2021 class to go with these, just thinking as they were initially Saddle Tanks before becoming Pannier tanks not to mention they made it to BR days, and being late 1890s designs they should work well for pregrouping layouts.

It may have only been 27 or so examples that were autofitted but surely it could be an interesting locomotive to add to a fleet. Never been done before and the locos were the precursors to the 1600 class Panniers, so quite a wide range of duties could be modelled.

[Andy Keane]

Maybe HighLevel could restock their14xx chassis kit?

Edited April 30, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Dunsignalling]

14 hours ago, melmerby said:

Hornby, ex Dapol, ex Mainline, ex Airfix.

The body isn't too bad, although not as good as the Hattons one, but the chassis needs a good going over (complete redesign), whichever version.

The 1970s origins are indeed still apparent and, yes, it will need a complete retool to satisfy current demands to accommodate DCC sound and lighting.

 

However, Dapol did revamp the 14xx during its time in their custody, fitting a more discreet can motor in place of the open frame cab-filler and conventional pick-ups vice the plungers favoured by Airfix. Mine also has a very strong spring on the trailing axle, but filling the bunker with lead controls that and it now runs quite nicely. I also replaced the traction-tyred wheelset with a plain pair from a dead Airfix donor.

 

I don't think Hornby has moved on from the Dapol spec, other than (possibly) using their standard motor. 

 

John

Edited May 1, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[tomparryharry]

Depending on your preferred era, an auto-fitted 1661 pannier might be a thought.

 

Or, a 54xx....

I don't mind, honest... 

[The Johnster]

2021s, 850s, Metros, 517s, all typical auto-engines in the days before engines were produced new specifically for this work.  As we've seen, the 48xx were not built until 1932, to replace the 517s, and the 54xx to replace the 2021s not until 1934, a year later for the smaller-wheeled 64xx version.  Pre-war GW branch lines in general could very usefully use one of the four mentioned at the start of my post and a panelled trailer, as they could up to the early 50s, and for pre-1932 settings, one of those four is more or less essential.

 

The problem was the railmotors, which became victims of their own success to the extent that they were paired with trailers to handle the traffic.  Handling of this extra load was indifferent on a good day, and as the SRMs' boilers came up for renewal at the same time as there were large-scale withdrawals of the above four, it was realised that a cheap, effective, and immediate solution was to hand; these redacted engines were fine for light work and fitted with auto gear fitted the bill admirably.  As the SRMs were withdrawn, another cheap and easy solution presented itself and they were converted to auto trailers to work with these redacted locos.  The differences among the Metros have been noted but the 0-6-0s were available in saddle and pannier tank versions, and there were instances of panniers being replaced at overhauls with saddles because the next available boiler had a round-topped firebox.

 

The pre-Churchward 0-6-0tanks, which included the 850s and 2021s and some auto-fitted outside framed engines for the purposes of this thread, where not so much classes in the sense that they were numbers of engines built to the same blueprint that retained that appearance, but more that they were groupings of engines with approximately similar overall specifications, but that could and did differ in details and even in major dimensions such as wheelbases and boilers.  Add on top of that that further variations were introduced at rebuildings into pannier from saddle and back again, there were varieties of wheel spokes between plain and H section, coupling rods could be plain, fluted, or fishbellied, bunkers were highly individualistic, as were cabs, smokeboxes could be domed or dished, don't get me started on buffers, some had polished brass splasher beadings and some had them painted over...

 

This is the problem facing any RTR manufacturer of such a loco to go with it's Diagram N or any other panelled trailer.  Each engine was pretty individualistic in major and minor detail, and you could probably find a prototype for any mixture of features you wanted for any given date but would not be able to assume that the engine stayed like that for long.  Let's say Dapol produce Fair Rosamund to go with the N (not sure off-hand if she ever ran with N's btw, it's just an example).  The model would no doubt sell, but is strictly speaking only suitable for Woodstock workings at a particular period.  If one wanted to renumber/relivery her for use elsewhere, the number and nameplates would have to be removable or printed, which would arouse critical comment here and howls of protest from anyone who wanted their particular 517 for, say, the Cowbridge Branch in 1948.  You cannot guarantee to please enough people with any of these classes to make it worth while tooling for one specific version of them.

 

I hope I'm wrong, and that somebody will produce one of them sooner or later, in saddle or pannier tank form for the 0-6-0s.  But it's academic for me, as I do not need any of them for Cwmdimbath.  Now, a 2721 or 1854, and you're talking my language, but they weren't auto fitted...

[BVMR21]

The rebuilt 2021s seem like the best candidates to me, but I have seen few pictures. It does become somewhat awkward but I wonder if it's possible to go down the Genesis route with the 2021 class.

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

You cannot guarantee to please enough people with any of these classes to make it worth while tooling for one specific version of them.

I dare say you are right but it's a tad ironic to be discussing people's need for absolute accuracy on a thread about a diagram of 6 trailers, which absolutely everyone will be running once they arrive!

[The Johnster]

Good point; I’m a bit blinkered on the subject of Ns as I need two for Cwmdimbath!

 

The largest single class of autotrailers was the A26, a panelled SRM rebuild, but it was a 70’ ‘suburban’ type not really suitable for BLTs or tight setrack curvature.  The bulk of auto work was main line suburban and urban branches, not that one would realise from looking at our layouts!

[The Johnster]

There were trailers and then there were trailers, by no means all the same, and it is very unlikely that more than a very restricted selection of them will ever see the light of RTR day!
 

SRMs and their matching trailers were built in two basic types (not including  compartment conversions like the Clifton Downs and others), a ‘Suburban’ type with seating occupying as large an area as possible, which passengers entered via the drivers’ and guards’ doors in the ends of the trailer, and a ‘Branch’ type, which had a separate compartment for parcels/mails and introduced the later pattern of passenger access through a centrally located vestibule with wide inward opening doors and retractable steps; the guard rode on a tip-up seat in this vestibule.   
 

This latter type became the standard (though there were very many variations and diagrams of both types) over time, but ‘Suburban’ trailers and SRM rebuilds remained in service into the mid-50s. 
 

The ‘Suburban’ trailers were built (to match SRMs) in 70’ and 59’6” lengths, but ‘Branch’ trailers were all 59’6”.  This trend was ended by the 1949 Hawksworth A38/A39 trailers which used his standard 63’9” underframe.  TTBOMK there were no 70’ matchboard-sided trailers, and there were no 70’ all-steel types either.  
 

Some Collett flatended non-gangwayed compatment brake composites were converted in 1938 for the Lydney-Sharpness service, which was  joint with the LMS who required first class provision, and a further number of similarly-styled brake seconds were converted in connection with an increase of auto work in South Wales in 1953.  A single window in the brake end was cut for the driver, leading to these trailers being known as ‘Cyclops’; there were a number of matching all-thirds given through auto gear to run with them.  The number converted and popularity of the period may play towards these appearing in RTR form at some time, both as ‘ordinary’ coaches and as the auto conversions. 
 

There were also gangwayed-within-sets twin set 70 footers, with driving cabs in the intermediate trailers, though they must have been very seldom if ever used.  These were used on the Plymouth Area suburban services.  Another variation was the post-WW2 plating over of toplights on some panelled and matchboarded trailers of both types and lengths, which made a very considerable difference to the appearance.  Both of these are interesting but, again, I suspect not high on RTR production lists…

 

And on top of that were trailers and SRM conversions from the Taff Vale and Cardiff Railways that were fitted post-grouping with GW type auto gear.   I would particularly love to see the very distinctive Taff Vale gangwayed twins produced, but there is probably more chance of Johnster marrying a 17-year-old nymphomaniac brewery heiress before that happens (and then I can have my own produced!). 
 

More likely to get Diagram S, one example built, a ‘Suburban’ with wire-operated sliding doors to each bay of 4-seater benches mounted crossways centrally (some trams were like this).  Rebuilt into more conventional form but retained the odd window pattern.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sjrixon]

A small update from Dapol...

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/blogs/news/oo-gauge-autocoach-1

 

 

[longchap]

I’ve only just spotted this thread, following a nudge from Neal B’s H-o-T and I’m absolutely delighted with this news.

 

I’m wondering what the sound file will include, as I cannot readily find any information. Any ideas anyone? It would be cool if it might include appropriate loco sounds as well as autocoach ones such as gong and doors and steps being used.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by longchap

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, sjrixon said:

A small update from Dapol...

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/blogs/news/oo-gauge-autocoach-1

 

 

 

Looks good; I'm sure the minor issues will be attended to and the final model will be everything we hope for!  I don't do DCC, so have no idea what an autotrailer sound file might contain; door shutting and bells would be my first guess, and perhaps the semi-obligatory 'peep' from the loco whistle as the loco is uncoupled because the fireman forgot to undo the whistle cord connection (experienced auto crews carried spares).

 

This will be my biggest purchase since the Baccy 94xx, and I'm looking forward to it.  W 37 W in crimson/cream for me, as transferred to Tondu in September 1953.  I am wondering if this one is sans bell, as it ran in partnership with A10 W 28, the latter trailer being at the driving end of the train; I'm working up an old K's A31 to represent this trailer.  Photos of the pair seem to alway be from the loco end and don't show this detail.

Edited July 19, 2023 by The Johnster

[Dunsignalling]

On 18/04/2023 at 15:23, The Johnster said:

Anyone who produces a 48/14/58xx would be able to use the chassis for a 517 as well, what’s not to like?  Metros are not so easy; IIRC they came in large or small with different wheelbases. 

 

It's not compulsory to offer every possible variation on the Metro simultaneously, though....😉

 

I don't have any drawings or measurements to hand, but if one version tallies with the reversed 517/14xx/58xx spacing, why not just go with that for starters? If it sold well enough, the non-matching one could come later.

 

Mind you, given their long service lives, I doubt there would have been any two exactly alike towards the end....

[The Johnster]

You’ve hit on what is maybe the most significant hinderance to RTR production of pre- Churchward GW tank engines, saddle/panniers included; there weren’t many exactly alike in the beginning!  In their original states most of them were not so much classes as loose groupings of locos with similar leading dimensions and generally similar appearance from a distance, and alterations over time, new cabs, fluted parallel or fishbelly coupling rods, different bunkers, some auto-fitted, sidferent places for toolboxes, and a plethora of other detail variations make choosing a prototype a bit of a minefield. Any prototype chosen will raise howls of protest from those of us who wanted different versions, a hiding to nothing.  
 

Fair Rosamund is a pretty safe bet for a 517, though…

Edited July 20, 2023 by The Johnster