A shunting puzzle with a twist in 009 (eventually)

[009 micro modeller]

I’ve been looking into exactly how to do this project for a while. I promise this thread is in the right section as eventually a layout will result, it’s just that the project as a whole requires me to build some of the stock and other equipment and test it out before I get anywhere near constructing a baseboard.

A few years ago I built my little 009 layout ‘Cule’s Quarry’ for the BRM cake box challenge (there’s a thread on here but sadly the pictures have gone down, and lots of them are on my old phone so a bit hard to get back at the moment).

 

 

This basically works by loading the end wagon, then shunting it across to the other siding, then repeat with the other two until the train is full. The working gravel chute is reasonably engaging at exhibitions and there is some movement, but obviously operation is a bit limited. However, one fairly valid criticism of this set-up was that in reality the chute would just be further back down the siding, allowing the whole train to be pushed through and each wagon loaded in turn without the need for the other siding. This led me to think of a different arrangement, with end-tipping wagons emerging from a mine. These would be unloaded, which of course would need to be done individually with each wagon being pushed to the end of a siding, justifying more prototypically the kind of shunting that goes on on Cule’s Quarry. However, this idea was still lacking the extra operational interest that might be provided by a more diverse selection of wagon types and possible movements.

 

Apart from end-tipping mineral wagons, another kind of wagon that is loaded and unloaded from the end is a transporter, carrying standard gauge wagons on narrow gauge. Famously used in the UK on the Leek & Manifold (but pretty much nowhere else), they were much more common elsewhere in Europe. So the idea of a shunting puzzle-type layout, with extra interest provided by the transporter wagons, started to evolve.

[Stubby47]

I've built a couple of these for my RNAD layout.

They were based on a standard N gauge chassis, with U channel for rails.

 

I filed a couple of bits in the rail, just enough to stop the std gauge wagon from moving.

Plus the 009 loco needs to be a good weight to stop the whole train moving as the std gauge wagon is loaded.

 

[009 micro modeller]

The key to this was how to make the transporter wagons, and actually be able to run standard gauge wagons on and off them. There have been a few kits in 009 over the years for Leek & Manifold transporters, but they are not currently particularly easy to get hold of and potentially aren’t that suitable for my project anyway. However, I did come across this article: https://www.missendenrailwaymodellers.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Transporter-Wagon.pdf

 

I managed to get in contact with Roger Noble, who had subsequently moved on from laser cutting to 3D printed transporter wagons, and very kindly agreed to print some for me as well. These are printed in two pieces - a deck, to which rails are attached using grooves designed for 00 gauge, and a spine to which wheels and couplings are attached.

 

 

 

The next question was how to actually make the standard gauge wagons run onto the transporters and then stay in place on them. The 3D prints are intended for use with free-running standard gauge wagons, pushed on and off the transporters by a standard gauge loco and with small pegs to keep them in place. However, several years ago Dr. Alan Gee had written an article for 009 News,  in which he described how he had motorised the standard gauge wagons individually. They then ran on and off under their own power, looking like they were being hand-shunted into place. I wanted to do something similar, but this would mean electrifying the rails on top of the transporters. Whereas Alan’s transporters had collected their power via wiper contacts on the ends, I decided that I would like mine to actually pick up from the narrow gauge rails, as a loco normally would. A bit of modification to the 3D print gave me this:

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[009 micro modeller]

Unfortunately, the awkwardly-angled wiper pickups, made from scrap brass and then attached to the rails by fishplates, were not particularly successful, but I could have worked on that and improved it. A bigger issue though was the transporter’s spine, which comes very close to the axle of any wagon loaded onto it and therefore makes it almost impossible to attach a gear to the axle to motorise the wagon. Much as I like Roger’s 3D prints, it looked as though a slightly different solution was needed.

 

I then remembered that I have a Continental-style transporter, purchased second hand a few years ago but never used (on the left in this view - compare the other design on the right):

 

 

By raising the standard gauge rail level slightly and using a small-wheeled design without a high spine in the middle, I could create a suitable transporter for my own freelance project.

 

 

 

The prototype is perhaps a bit rougher than I might like but it seems to work and I’ll refine it as I go along. Basic structure is plastruct or similar, with code 75 rails glued to 00 gauge (plus a slight tolerance) on the edges. The pick-up method was suggested by an 009 Society friend and works well. The wheels are 5.1mm Greenwich, insulated on one side only. The insulator on one axle is on the opposite side to that on the other axle, and the axles run in pieces of brass tube which also conduct electricity, via the brass plate, to the rails. I realise that using this method of pick-up means I can’t use the rails to power the 009 loco in the normal way; I have ideas of how to get round this, but more of that another time.

[009 micro modeller]

The next, and so far least successful, part of the project is the motorised standard gauge wagons themselves. Annoyingly, the High Level Fly Shunter kits used by Alan Gee are no longer available, so a new method was needed. As the rest of the project is already getting quite expensive and the standard gauge wagons will only run over extremely short distances, relatively infrequently, I was hoping to save a bit of money here, so the resulting prototype is a bit of a lash-up. I bought some cheap (but really good) Chinese motors that come with attached gearboxes, and the idea is to drive one of the original wagon axles via a couple of gears.

 

 

 

 

The pickups and drive to the axle seem to work, but on the test track it hardly moves and has a lot of wheel spin instead. I’m wondering if this is because of the gearing (which is very low, but maybe too low now?), or possibly because the driven axle was only originally designed for use in unpowered wagons. I’m also not really happy with the cut brake rigging and very visible drive gear, and could try to improve this on subsequent builds - the original idea was for the motor to be higher and less visible. To be honest, at this stage I’m wondering whether to just use a proprietary motor bogie, although I’m not sure I’ll have much luck finding one with the right wheel diameter and wheelbase for standard BR/Big Four 4-wheeled opens and vans. Any thoughts?

[33C]

3 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

The next, and so far least successful, part of the project is the motorised standard gauge wagons themselves. Annoyingly, the High Level Fly Shunter kits used by Alan Gee are no longer available, so a new method was needed. As the rest of the project is already getting quite expensive and the standard gauge wagons will only run over extremely short distances, relatively infrequently, I was hoping to save a bit of money here, so the resulting prototype is a bit of a lash-up. I bought some cheap (but really good) Chinese motors that come with attached gearboxes, and the idea is to drive one of the original wagon axles via a couple of gears.

 

 

 

 

The pickups and drive to the axle seem to work, but on the test track it hardly moves and has a lot of wheel spin instead. I’m wondering if this is because of the gearing (which is very low, but maybe too low now?), or possibly because the driven axle was only originally designed for use in unpowered wagons. I’m also not really happy with the cut brake rigging and very visible drive gear, and could try to improve this on subsequent builds - the original idea was for the motor to be higher and less visible. To be honest, at this stage I’m wondering whether to just use a proprietary motor bogie, although I’m not sure I’ll have much luck finding one with the right wheel diameter and wheelbase for standard BR/Big Four 4-wheeled opens and vans. Any thoughts?

What about Micro-Scalextric cars? Use the whole floor pan and change the wheels?

[009 micro modeller]

1 minute ago, 33C said:

What about Micro-Scalextric cars? Use the whole floor pan and change the wheels?

Yes but currently isn’t it the wheels that are the problem? The pickups from the track work and feed power to the motor, motor works, and the wheels turn so the drive to them works, but it doesn’t seem to have enough traction to run properly. The fact that only one axle is being driven shouldn’t really be an issue as the wagon only has to move itself along very slowly, it hasn’t got to pull anything. Presumably you’d be able to keep the original wheelbase if using Micro-Scalextric cars?

[33C]

22 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Yes but currently isn’t it the wheels that are the problem? The pickups from the track work and feed power to the motor, motor works, and the wheels turn so the drive to them works, but it doesn’t seem to have enough traction to run properly. The fact that only one axle is being driven shouldn’t really be an issue as the wagon only has to move itself along very slowly, it hasn’t got to pull anything. Presumably you’d be able to keep the original wheelbase if using Micro-Scalextric cars?

Ah, so, whisper it quietly, "traction tyres".....a pack of 3 sizes, teeth braces, should give you enough traction.

[009 micro modeller]

12 minutes ago, 33C said:

Ah, so, whisper it quietly, "traction tyres".....a pack of 3 sizes, teeth braces, should give you enough traction.

Will they fit the wheels though? They’re normal wagon wheels, not designed for use with traction tyres. Of course I could replace the actual wheels, but what with?

 

And I’m not absolutely sure that it’s the lack of wheel traction causing the problem, I just can’t think what else it could be as, unbelievably, the rest of it seems to work.

 

Edit: I’m also not entirely clear on how traction tyres work while still allowing the metal parts of the wheel to pick up electricity.

Edited March 22, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[33C]

Driven axle = tyre, other axle = pickups? Is it a lack of weight? Just enough to do the job, prevent the wheel spin. Fishing split shot is cheap and comes in tiny to not so tiny. Add a bit, little by little, in a bottle top, until it stops the spinning, then pour/put it somewhere unobtrusive. 

[009 micro modeller]

7 minutes ago, 33C said:

Driven axle = tyre, other axle = pickups?

The pickups at the moment are the same as on the transporter wagon - diagonally opposite insulators (insulated on one side only) and pickup from axles. So both axles are needed for pickup as currently configured. How does it work on RTR stuff with tyres?

 

10 minutes ago, 33C said:

Is it a lack of weight?

I thought so but now I’m not so sure. The motor itself is quite heavy and adding weight doesn’t seem to improve things that much (though it sometimes does a bit). In any case, it can’t be too heavy as it will make the transporter top-heavy when it’s loaded.

[33C]

Motor may be providing too much power. Or the gearing may be too high. Torque may be the issue. 

[009 micro modeller]

I’m persevering with the motorised wagons but as an alternative to the way I’m currently doing it, would something like an old tender drive unit work? I’m unsure if any of these would be of suitable wheelbase though.

[009 micro modeller]

A further option for motorising the wagons, which I’m at least going to experiment with, is this:

 

 

 

It’s an old style Hornby class 86 motor bogie.  The main issue with using a motor bogie or similar is finding one with an appropriate wheelbase, however this one is correct for 10ft wheelbase wagons. The motor is high, so it will probably work for vans but not open wagons, although at this stage this isn’t necessarily a huge issue as opens tend to need a lot more cutting to remove sections of the floor as well as the wagon frame. Potentially the gearing is a little high for my application although I suppose as a future more complex project it might be possible to re-gear it, although I don’t think it’s so high it’s unusable. In terms of the wheels themselves, the diameter is possibly slightly too large but (for a lot of wagons at least) not noticeably so; potentially the biggest issue is that they’re solid discs rather than 3-hole discs or spokes (obviously I could rewheel, but not sure whether there’s anything suitable that would fit on the axles).

 

However, there is a more immediate problem. The two large metal contacts on one side of the bogie (shown in the second photo) are positive and negative feeds to the motor, but only one of these is connected to the wheels, via the middle of both axles. I haven’t owned a complete class 86 but I assume it’s because it’s a double bogie design so, as used for its original intended purpose, my motor bogie would have pickups on one side only, with the trailing bogie having the pickups on the opposite side. At the moment I’m thinking of just trying to create some kind of wiper pick-up off the other side and soldering it to the appropriate contact on the side of the motor, but alternatively how difficult would it be to reverse one of the axles to pick up from the other side and then rearrange the feeds to the motor? This would probably be better and more similar to the way the pickups on my transporter wagon work, but might require more serious disassembly and reassembly of the bogie.

[Stubby47]

Another potential issue will be the very high centre of gravity when the motorised van is on the 009 transporter wagon.

 

I also had to fit a beam to the standard gauge loading bank to support the end of the transporter wagon, beyond the 009 axle.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

Another potential issue will be the very high centre of gravity when the motorised van is on the 009 transporter wagon.

Yes, although not necessarily any worse than the other options for motorising the wagons (the top of the Hornby bogie’s motor is very high though, although a lot of of the heavy bits are a bit lower down).

 

Alan Gee’s layout (mentioned above) used the High Level kits (sadly the motors for these are now out of production), I think quite successfully, but I’m not sure how top-heavy these are.

[009 micro modeller]

Actually thinking of High Level brings me back to another suggestion, which wasn’t related to the fly shunter but was to use one of their other kits. This one has, like the class 86 bogie an appropriate (for 10ft wagons) 40mm wheelbase, assuming that the frames can be omitted: https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/product-page/longrider

 

However, their Pacer motorising kits are perhaps more intriguing (and more cost effective from my point of view): https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/product-page/pacemaker-power-car

 

The illustrated wheels (with pinpoints on the ends) and the claim that ‘any make, gauge or size of wheels can be fitted’ is interesting as it implies that I might be able to adapt them for use on the motorised wagons, simply using the original wheels as in my original plan, with the other axle just left alone (I can’t see why it necessarily needs to have 4-wheel drive just to run up and down a little bit of straight, level track).

[009 micro modeller]

Attempts to fit the class 86 bogie inside a 10ft wheelbase van seem to be going reasonably well (there are some minor detail inaccuracies up close but they don’t look anywhere near as bad as I was expecting). It should be working soon and I should have some more photos. The weight and high centre of gravity of the bogie doesn’t seem to be an issue on straight track. I haven’t really had an opportunity to test it on curves or points yet but the key point is that the weight does seem to be mainly acting through the transporter’s wheels and down onto the track, which is good.

 

On the final layout the plan is for it to be mostly straight track but with one 18-inch radius point (so over the common minimum radius for standard gauge 00, never mind 009) and corresponding diverging curve for a siding, which at the low speeds envisaged is unlikely to present too many problems. In fact potentially a bigger issue will be building a suitably beefy 009 loco for the task of hauling/propelling the weight of two motor bogies plus transporters.

 

 I will still continue looking at other ways to motorise the wagons (including building my own chassis) as potentially it will look a bit better and also the class 86 bogies are unsuitable for open wagons due to the height of the motor. I’m also thinking that the low speed running might not be that good and that I might ultimately want to replace with something better. At the moment though it will hopefully speed things up a bit and allow me to get on with the next stage of the project.

 

Edit: does anyone happen to know if the new-type Hornby class 86 (as opposed to the old type I have) has the motor on the main chassis frame or on the bogie as with the old one? I was under the impression that it’s the former (which would make it useless for my purposes), but I just wondered as potentially it would have improved running compared to the old version. The reason for using these specifically is because they have 4 wheels and a 40mm wheelbase, and therefore match a 10ft van wagon, so I’d also be interested to know if this is still the case on the new one.

Edited April 30, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[009 micro modeller]

Some photos of the motorised van.

 

 

 

Unfortunately I forgot to take photos before putting the body on but, essentially, I’ve hollowed out the middle of the original Dapol RTR van chassis (and removed the wheels and couplings, obviously). The remaining frame is then attached to the class 86 bogie. There isn’t a great way to do this as the clips that hold the original side frames in place aren’t really suitable and there’s nowhere to insert a screw, so at the moment it has a plasticard tab at each end, one end of the tab being glued onto the bogie and one on the van frame, with styrene strip used to correctly level the axle box centres with the wheel centres on the bogie. This does mean that the base of the van body might need to be gently filed in a couple of specific places so that it sits level, but I’m leaving that for the moment. The idea is that the small tabs only have to hold the weight of the plastic body and frame and could be taken off it is necessary to dismantle it in future, but this also means I have to be careful to only pick it up by the bogie.

 

It runs OK, improved by adding some adhesive weight (lead sheet and the wagon weight originally fitted to the van) but I’m still not sure that it’s quite up to the standard needed on a shunting layout where it will run only occasionally and very slowly over a very short distance. A further issue is that my Minitrains Gmeinder (which is capable of pushing the transporter plus the unmodified class 86 bogie on top of it) cannot push the transporter when it is loaded with the finished van. I can’t imagine that the weight of the plastic van body will have made much difference so this must be down to the lead sheet weights. This isn’t actually the intended loco for the finished layout, but it does suggest that it might be a bit difficult to build one that can handle the weight of two loaded transporters (each loaded with a motorised wagon) and obviously I don’t want to be too quick in dismissing my earlier concerns about wagons toppling off transporters on points etc. if they are too top-heavy.

 

I understand that the new style of Hornby class 86 bogie (with more modern can motor) would also be suitable and is likely to have better running qualities than this one, so I might see if I can get hold of one of those next.

[009 micro modeller]

Motorised van mark 2:

 

 

 

I was going to use a different wagon this time, but in the end decided that I couldn’t be bothered to hollow out another Dapol wagon frame and so simply transplanted the original one onto a different motor bogie; of course at some point I will need to manufacture at least another four of these anyway. It now runs on a Hornby Eurostar power bogie (a slightly random and seemingly bizarre choice!) which has had the  Eurostar axle boxes and frame details sawn off. The cosmetic alterations are a more involved process than the class 86 bogie because the side frames can’t simply be unclipped, and the wheelbase is slightly too short at 38mm (although this is nowhere near as glaringly obvious as I’d feared). However, the running quality is much improved over the 86 bogie, while it’s also lighter; not only does it need less added weight to run properly but it’s also lighter to start with. This means that my Gmeinder can handle it easily at low speeds although it may struggle with two transporters plus motorised wagons - hopefully the loco that I will build for the layout will be able to be a bit heavier/more powerful in order to manage the load.

 

The other good thing about the Eurostar bogies is all-wheel drive and pickup, only requiring a couple of wires to be soldered on to be useable. As a bonus they also have slightly smaller (12.3mm) wheels, more appropriate for 1950s goods wagons, and they may even be able to be re-wheeled fairly easily. The 38mm wheelbase might actually work for 9ft (36mm) wagons as well, meaning I could standardise on one type of bogie, and they also seem quite easy to get hold of. The running quality decreased slightly when I cut off the unwanted plastic details but this might have something to do with the sawing motion slightly bending things out of alignment, and now that I know what I’m doing with the Eurostar bogie I can hopefully avoid repeating any mistakes next time.

 

The next stage is probably to make a test rig for the unloading dock.

Edited May 15, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[33C]

What about Lima HO motors, as fitted to their 4F and class 33? Small enough to fit in the Ratio 2-4-0 tender with a low coal load. I have used them twice in those with great results. Check out some of their French and Italian diesel and electric loco's as well for short wheel base motors. 

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, 33C said:

What about Lima HO motors, as fitted to their 4F and class 33? Small enough to fit in the Ratio 2-4-0 tender with a low coal load. I have used them twice in those with great results. Check out some of their French and Italian diesel and electric loco's as well for short wheel base motors. 

I could look at these but is there likely to be any advantage over the Eurostar bogies? Unlike the Ringfield class 86 bogie I used initially the Eurostar bogie looks as though it will be low enough for open wagons as well as vans. The underframe brake rigging modifications needed (basically moving it out slightly to accommodate the motor bogie) have also got to the stage where kit-built wagons might be a better starting point, although the Dapol vans are particularly suitable for conversion because the van body doesn’t have a separate floor, and using suitable RTR wagons does mean they are already in reasonably correct liveries as well.

[009 micro modeller]

As a little break from the motorised wagons, I thought I’d look at the locos for this project. This has also become more important recently, as I’ve realised that I need to make sure the locos are actually capable of shunting two loaded transporters at a time, so it’s as well that I build a loco at the same time as I test the transporters and motorised wagons, rather than waiting until later.

 

As I’m using both rails to supply power to the standard gauge wagons via the transporters, I obviously can’t use normal 2-rail power to supply the narrow gauge loco (not on analogue DC anyway). One way would be to use battery powered radio control, but I have decided to use overhead wire, with return through both rails. A few days ago I took delivery of an N gauge Roco BR 144.5, bought from EBay. These were based on a standard gauge German bogie electric loco and the model was dual-equipped, with a screw switch on the roof switching between pickup through either one rail as normal or the overhead wire, via pantographs. Common return was through the remaining rail.

 

I realise that using this as a basis for my 009 loco will mean that one rail is not being used  for the return, but the alternative is some pretty extensive re-wiring. I also think it would be good if the loco still retains the switchable 2-rail capability, as it can then be tested on my other, more conventional layouts.

 

 

The first image shows the switch as currently fitted. The main problem with this is that the body is loose. The loco was cheaper than normal, effectively being sold as a non-runner because the body is loose and therefore the switch doesn’t press down appropriately on the electrical contacts on the chassis. However, ideally I will just replace this with a new switching arrangement, given that the new body will be much taller anyway.

 

 

The circular hole near the top of the circuit board is where the original switch is supposed to press into. It then swivels round to one of the metallic sections on the circuit board to either of the two remaining sections (they correspond to the pantographs and the two rails). The connection to the pantographs is also based on pressure, but as this is on a more robust springy piece of metal I think this should be OK. I am wondering though if it would be possible to wire in some sort of small electrical switch to replace the original one, with soldered connections to the different metallic sections on the circuit board. Any ideas?

 

For reference, this is the top of the original N gauge body, showing the screw switch:

 

[009 micro modeller]

Not a very high tech solution, but it works. I took a slice out of the original body, specifically the bit that holds the switch, and then superglued this back onto the chassis block. The fit is tighter than originally, but on a loco where the body wasn’t loose it might be a good idea to just retain most of the original body and build the new one round it.

 

 

The running qualities of the Roco chassis are excellent if a little noisy, which is what I’d expect from an old Roco mechanism, based on my experience with a Roco H0e 0-6-0T, probably of similar vintage, that I have. I’ll need to make some slight changes to the pantograph arrangements when constructing the new body, but this should be relatively straightforward.

[DCB]

On 15/05/2023 at 19:46, 009 micro modeller said:

Motorised van mark 2:

 

 

 

 

I was going to use a different wagon this time, but in the end decided that I couldn’t be bothered to hollow out another Dapol wagon frame and so simply transplanted the original one onto a different motor bogie; of course at some point I will need to manufacture at least another four of these anyway. It now runs on a Hornby Eurostar power bogie (a slightly random and seemingly bizarre choice!) which has had the  Eurostar axle boxes and frame details sawn off. The cosmetic alterations are a more involved process than the class 86 bogie because the side frames can’t simply be unclipped, and the wheelbase is slightly too short at 38mm (although this is nowhere near as glaringly obvious as I’d feared). However, the running quality is much improved over the 86 bogie, while it’s also lighter; not only does it need less added weight to run properly but it’s also lighter to start with. This means that my Gmeinder can handle it easily at low speeds although it may struggle with two transporters plus motorised wagons - hopefully the loco that I will build for the layout will be able to be a bit heavier/more powerful in order to manage the load.

 

The next stage is probably to make a test rig for the unloading dock.

Have you considered a vintage Triang pre 1960 underframe. They are in two mazak halves split left and right and when separated by an insulated plastic rod or match stick and fibre washer and Bachmann split axle wagon wheels are fitted it picks up power nicely.  I had one as a runner for an 0-4-0 diesel before I went live frog.   It shouldn't be too difficult to fit an N gauge motor or something from a dead computer to power one..  The Triang chassis lacks detail  but brake levers etc can be added ,  it should be better looking  Than the Bachmann(?) van  perched on top of the Euro star bogie