Lancaster and Carlisle Railway Crest in Colour?

[LMRT]

Slightly off-topic being real world. They are looking to repaint the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway crest at Carlisle station, but no one can find a colour version of the crest for reference. Does anyone have a copy to aid in the restoration?

[BachelorBoy]

Have you tried the College of Arms? 

[BachelorBoy]

[BachelorBoy]

My guess is that the four smaller crests on the shield represent cities or towns served by the railway, or prominent investors, and if you can identify them, then you will have the colours.

 

[Compound2632]

This letter suggests that the Lancaster & Carlisle Railway had adopted elements from the arms of various towns it served (I think the top left quarter is an old form of the arms of Lancaster, correctly coloured, though the gold could do with refreshing), a common practice among early railway companies, and had done so without asking anybody's permission (also not unusual) so I fear a search of the records of the College of Arms will be fruitless.

 

Can the other quarters be identified? I don't see anything resembling the current arms of the City of Carlisle there (per @BachelorBoy's post, made as I was typing).

 

The background "garter" seems to be common to all the coats of arms on the station building.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Compound2632

[BachelorBoy]

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/people/cp46373/lancaster-carlisle-railway

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/people/cp46373/lancaster-carlisle-railway

 

Some of those objects might give a clue. Early railway police trucheons often had the company's coat of arms painted on them.

 

Has the Cumbrian Railways Association been consulted?

https://cumbrianrailways.org.uk/

[jdsnape]

32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

This letter suggests that the Lancaster & Carlisle Railway had adopted elements from the arms of various towns it served (I think the top left quarter is an old form of the arms of Lancaster, correctly coloured, though the gold could do with refreshing), a common practice among early railway companies, and had done so without asking anybody's permission (also not unusual) so I fear a search of the records of the College of Arms will be fruitless.

 

Can the other quarters be identified? I don't see anything resembling the current arms of the City of Carlisle there (per @BachelorBoy's post, made as I was typing).

 

The background "garter" seems to be common to all the coats of arms on the station building.

You are correct about the top left quarter - I found it here - under "LANCASTER CITY COUNCIL (former)" http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/lancs_pre74.html 

 

I looked through the other North West pages on that site but couldn't find anything that matched the other quarters!

[jdsnape]

I wonder if the bottom right quarant is a modification simplification of the old arms for Carlisle shown on the right in this image? (See also https://thedormontbook.wordpress.com/2015/01/22/carlisles-coat-of-arms-the-great-debate-2/)

Edited March 24, 2023 by jdsnape
added link

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, jdsnape said:

I wonder if the bottom right quarant is a modification simplification of the old arms for Carlisle shown on the right in this image? (See also https://thedormontbook.wordpress.com/2015/01/22/carlisles-coat-of-arms-the-great-debate-2/)

 

I think you've got it there - the stonemason's best attempt!

 

Two down, two to go...

[Buhar]

The only possible origin for the caboshed stags' heads I can find is from the Duke of Devonshire.  An investor?

 

Alan

[jdsnape]

35 minutes ago, Buhar said:

The only possible origin for the caboshed stags' heads I can find is from the Duke of Devonshire.  An investor?

 

Alan

That seems like a good match. I can't find any records of his involvement, at the time I think he was the Earl of Burlington, later becoming the 7th Duke (all this stuff is a bit beyond me though!). There is lots of info about his involvement in the barrow and furness railway, and he made a personal loan to the Ulverstone and Lancaster Railway so lots of involvement in railways in the area.

[BachelorBoy]

29 minutes ago, Buhar said:

The only possible origin for the caboshed stags' heads I can find is from the Duke of Devonshire.  An investor?

 

Alan

 

According to Wikipedia: William Cavendish, 7th Duke of Devonshire, KG, PC (27 April 1808 – 21 December 1891), styled as Lord Cavendish of Keighley between 1831 and 1834 and known as Earl of Burlington between 1834 and 1858, was a British landowner, benefactor, nobleman, and politician.

 

The Cavendishes own Holker Hall, in Cumbria/Lancashire.

 

And William Cavendish was an investor in the Furness Railway  (he invested a lot in mining and industry the Barrow area).

 

So .... a connection with the Lancaster & Carlisle seems plausible, although I realise none of that is direct evidence.

 

The 

[jdsnape]

The top right quadrant has me a bit stumped. It is pretty rare to have a whole person as a charge. It's hard to make out, but it looks like it might be a crowned king holding a sword (or possibly sceptre?). I would have thought that would be presumptuous if it were applied. 

 

I wonder if it is just an image of a king, possible in reference to the house of Lancaster?

[LMRT]

4 hours ago, jdsnape said:

I wonder if the bottom right quarant is a modification simplification of the old arms for Carlisle shown on the right in this image? (See also https://thedormontbook.wordpress.com/2015/01/22/carlisles-coat-of-arms-the-great-debate-2/)

Matching this is the Lancaster Coat of Arms... 


The problem is if the Railway never adopted the official colours in their version.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, LMRT said:

The problem is if the Railway never adopted the official colours in their version.

 

It would be most unusual if they didn't - besides which the colours match the existing paintwork.

 

It is an unusual coat of arms, though, placing colour by colour. I suppose this arises because it is derived from the royal arms of France and England.

[Buhar]

The bloke top right is a puzzle.  He must be derived from something.  I can't find an image of Henry VII or VIII that matches and that's it for adult Tudor kings (also one's generally illustrated in a way that's too fat and the other's too thin).  Is there a relevant saint?  The only significant towns along the line are Carnforth, Oxenholme (at a push) and Penrith and I can't see a connection with those, unless it's someone with a flaming torch lighting Penrith Beacon.

Alan

[Michael Hodgson]

According to that well known source of misinformation, wikipedia, the company seems to have been deeply involved in the running of its disorganised southern neighbour on the WCML, whose seal can be seen here. 

 

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co233838/lancaster-preston-junction-railway-seal-die-seal-die

 

The bottom right quarter seems to have been a controversial and temporary unofficial version of Carlisle's crest

https://thedormontbook.wordpress.com/2015/01/22/carlisles-coat-of-arms-the-great-debate-2/

https://www.heraldry-wiki.com/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=Carlisle

But it was presumably an accepted version for the City at the time as it also appears on the Maryport & Carlisle's crest

https://www.gwra.co.uk/auctions/maryport-carlisle-railway-mounted-crest-company-co-2019apr-0388.html

 

I can't make out what the chap in the top right quadrant is supposed to be.  They would have to fill the 4th quarter with something at least vaguely heraldic - A bishop with a mitre?  A knight or maybe a king with a sword?  St George even?

 

Probably doesn't help much but I found a marginally clearer photo of the crest at Citadel station :

https://co-curate.ncl.ac.uk/resources/view/114001/

 

A very long shot but did the Kendal Mercury print a later response to the grumpy letter to the editor?

Was "K.K." the mayor or similar official?  It certainly seems from that letter that the carriages also carried the Kendal Town's motto

https://www.blipfoto.com/entry/2751348

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It would be most unusual if they didn't - besides which the colours match the existing paintwork.

 

It is an unusual coat of arms, though, placing colour by colour. I suppose this arises because it is derived from the royal arms of France and England.

Surely the existing colours are likely to be broadly right, at least if anybody last time could find out - they would have had to try and work it out if they didn't know.  There would almost certainly be local knowledge which would tell them what at least some of the details should be.

[jdsnape]

21 minutes ago, Buhar said:

The bloke top right is a puzzle.  He must be derived from something.  I can't find an image of Henry VII or VIII that matches and that's it for adult Tudor kings (also one's generally illustrated in a way that's too fat and the other's too thin).  Is there a relevant saint?  The only significant towns along the line are Carnforth, Oxenholme (at a push) and Penrith and I can't see a connection with those, unless it's someone with a flaming torch lighting Penrith Beacon.

Alan

If it is a saint then Oswald is probably the most likely contender, although more usually associated with the North East I think. 

[Compound2632]

Carlisle Cathedral is dedicated to St Anthony the Hermit, who is either St Anthony of Lerins, a fifth-century monk who lived on an island in Lake Como, or St Anthony of Egypt, the third century founder of monasticism; either would be appropriate for an Augustinian foundation. I had been wondering about the staff the figure in the fourth quarter is holding - is it a ragged staff, which would be the usual emblem of a hermit?

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

I stopped posting on here, but this is cracking me up no end....  

 

Didn't anyone do history? As this is so basic it's unreal.

 

 

It's Henry IV - Duke Of Lancaster!

 

The last of the Dukes of Lancaster as a separate title, after which all Kings of England were then Duke of Lancaster, even QEII. Still revered in the North West.

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

It's Henry IV - Duke Of Lancaster!

 

OK, definitely not a hermit!

 

But what colour should he be, that's the question?

Edited March 24, 2023 by Compound2632

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

OK, definitely not a hermit!

 

But what colour should he be, that's the question?

 

Wiki is your friend.

 

I would guess it depends on whether it's a suit of armour or Royal Blue everyday wear. Could even be the typical Royal red and blue quarters like many kings wore in battle.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV_of_England

[Buhar]

29 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Didn't anyone do history? As this is so basic it's unreal.

 

 

It's Henry IV - Duke Of Lancaster!

I did do history beyond school, thank you for asking.  My searches for Dukes of Lancaster didn't turn up anyone holding that staff and I would have thought that would have been a point reference for people looking at the arms.

Alan