What Locomotives and DMU’s operated from Glasgow Queen Street in early 1970s

[GordonC]

39 minutes ago, Strathyre said:

They were only used as a last resort when there wasn't a type 2, normally a 27, available. They just gave problems, with the nose leading into Queen St judging the stopping point before hitting the buffers, or when cab leading into Queen St (which was fine for avoiding the buffers!) with banking out to Cowlairs, which the pilot engine almost always did. Banking engines were not coupled onto the back of the train, as that would've meant stopping at the head of the incline to tie off and would cost time as a result. I never worked a 20 on the pilot myself but would've expected the crew to tie it on to the back of the train if banking out with the bonnet leading, for the sake of safety.

 

Paul

 

I'm surprised the banker was never coupled, was there never a danger of the banker dropping off the rear only to risk colliding with the train in the dark tunnel if the main train slowed at all?

[Legend]

15 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

My notes from the 1971 - 4 period show that Queen Street was quite varied but there was a sort of standardisation within that variety.  

 

Oban and Fort William / Mallaig trains were normally class 26, very occasionally double-headed.  The "school train" on the Oban line which I believe might have been non-timetabled (but now is - it's the afternoon Oban - Dalmally and back working) was a 101 triple.  

Inverness trains were usually class 27 or less often one of the Inverness 26s, again sometimes double-headed but the constraints of Queen Street meant that was avoided where ever possible.  Some such trains were double-headed only north of Perth.  

Aberdeen trains were 27 or 40 with the latter considered a poor substitute for the still-lamented A4s.  

Edinburgh trains via the main line were InterCity DMU sets in 3-car or 6-car formation but which were replaced with 27 push-pull sets early in the 1970s. 

Local services and those out to Stirling, Falkirk and the likes were mostly class 101 triples but with oddities thrown in.  Sc55000 was one such.  I first saw that in a 6-car formation of 101 triple + 122 + 116 twin; there were some class 116 cars in Scotland at the time although they were generally confined to "South of the Clyde" routes.  116s were also seen on the Springburn - Cumbernauld shuttle.  

No station pilot was normally provided in Queen Street because of the tight location neither was there a loco-release; outbound trains were sometimes helped up the bank by the inbound loco pushing (though not coupled) and dropping off at Cowlairs.  If shunt assistance were needed it would have been an 06, rather than an 08, often as not.  

 

The 29s had ended on passenger service by then but could still be seen on the occasional freight or van train.  Eastfield also contained a goodly number of then-withdrawn examples alongside many redundant class 17 "Claytons"; that is a type I never saw in traffic.  I never noted a 20 in Glasgow but they have been recorded.  

 

The London - Fort William sleeper has been mentioned above.  That could come and go by one of many routes even before the south-to-east curve was laid at Cowlairs.  I have arrived with the loco leading on most occasions but on one trip we arrived loco trailing!!!  Having come via Gartcosh and Springburn we proceeded to stop alongside Eastfield Depot before descending reverse-formation and hopefully with a shunter travelling in the leading vehicle!  Traction was a 47.  On another occasion we ran past Eastfield and turned left, stopping clear of Cowlairs West Junction near where Ashfield station now is.  We then reversed around the north side of the triangle so as to be facing south with the loco leading at Cowlairs East and descended to Queen Street also behind a 47.  I have also stopped twice at Queen Street on the southbound train.  Taking the Partick route rather than the usual Maryhill line we ran into Queen Street Low Level, stopped and to my surprise were announced as the train to Glasgow Queen Street.  Having set down most folk we then continued via Springburn and a reversal / run-round at Eastfield (the Cowlairs Chord not yet being available) and dropped into Queen Street High Level around 45 minutes later!  For good measure I have also used that train when it came via Central Low Level (without stopping), Rutherglen West Curve and into Central High Level!  The first two were being 26s; the trip into Central was more recent and behind a 37/4.  

 

Is that a mis type when you say Oban and Fort William trains were normally Class 26 . Shouldn't that be 27.  You could see 26s at Queen St but they were mainly on Inverness and Dundee services . WHL were always 27s (and 21/29s from earlier)

[Strathyre]

23 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

I'm surprised the banker was never coupled, was there never a danger of the banker dropping off the rear only to risk colliding with the train in the dark tunnel if the main train slowed at all?

The only time the banker was coupled was when the train was to run via Springburn, and thus ran into Eastfield loop where the leading loco was uncoupled and the train continued with what had been the banker at its head - this normally happened on Sundays when there was a possession on the E&G. The bankers otherwise routinely ran uncoupled but relied on the train engine driver not applying power until the banker had the train well under way. Occasionally some nervous drivers opened up too early and the train pulled away from the banker. In these circumstances the banker driver was under clear instructions to stop immediately and then proceed slowly to the next stop signal when the train was well clear.

 

Banking a train up the incline was a pretty exiting manoeuvre for the crew, believe me!

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Strathyre

[Legend]

11 hours ago, Strathyre said:

The only time the banker was coupled was when the train was to run via Springburn, and thus ran into Eastfield loop where the leading loco was uncoupled and the train continued with what had been the banker at its head - this normally happened on Sundays when there was a possession on the E&G. The bankers otherwise routinely ran uncoupled but relied on the train engine driver not applying power until the banker had the train well under way. Occasionally some nervous drivers opened up too early and the train pulled away from the banker. In these circumstances the banker driver was under clear instructions to stop immediately and then proceed slowly to the next stop signal when the train was well clear.

 

Banking a train up the incline was a pretty exiting manoeuvre for the crew, believe me!

 

 

That explains why the banker at platform ends went off at full roar . It was impressive to watch too . 

[GordonC]

35 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

That explains why the banker at platform ends went off at full roar . It was impressive to watch too . 

 

the kind of thrash that sticks in your memory for decades! ... 😁

[45125]

On 02/04/2023 at 21:22, Jeremy C said:

The Glasgow-Edinburgh push pulls were original (pre-Mk2A) Mk 2s fitted with air brakes - these were unique to this route, but I don't know nearly enough about BR coaching stock to tell you what the differences were from a standard Mk2. The standard formation was BSO-FK-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO (edited based on looking at photographs - the BSO might be either way round). The BSO was always at the Glasgow end - it was a rule for working Cowlairs incline that all trains working out of Queen Street had a brake at the Glasgow end. There is a lovely article on the Glasgow-Edinburgh push pulls here: https://www.6lda28.com/shove.html.

ETH-fitted locomotives (class 27/2) appeared in 1973, and the usual arrangement was a 27/1 at one end and a 27/2 at the other. The coaches already had dual heating so no further modifications were needed.

 

Almost everything else would have been Mk1s during your period, vacuum braked with steam heating, and the photos I've seen show a number of them still on BR1 bogies, interspersed with Commonwealths and the occasional B4. Mk2s were relatively unusual. There's a Mk2 BFK leading in the left hand train in ColinK's top picture dated 30th April 1974, which almost certainly isn't an Edinburgh push-pull, and the headcode appears to begin 2N, which would make it a Stirling or Perth service. I've also seen a picture of Mk2 FK or FO in an Inverness-Edinburgh train otherwise made up of Mk1s. Unfortunately, few photographers paid much attention to the carriages, and I wasn't particularly interested in them myself at that age.

The class25s that worked the E-G services were from the pool of dual braked ones , which due to their tatty green paint work ended up with a quick rail blue repaint. Wasn't unusual to see some services with a pair of 25s one at each end. Most of the 37s that worked E-G services where allocated to Haymarket. 

 

The MK2s used on E-G services were from the first production batch. They had sliding gangway door like a mk1, it wasn't until the 2As appeared did the bifolding doors appear.

Edited April 5, 2023 by 45125

[Hunslet 102]

Thanks for the info 45125. Would the 37s from Haymarket have worked regularly or irregularly on the service and would they have worked with other class types as someone suggested earlier in the thread?

[45125]

1 hour ago, Hunslet 102 said:

Thanks for the info 45125. Would the 37s from Haymarket have worked regularly or irregularly on the service and would they have worked with other class types as someone suggested earlier in the thread?

The 37s were irregular performers on the service. They worked with both 27s and 25s on the service.

[pH]

11 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

the kind of thrash that sticks in your memory for decades! ... 😁

The V1/V3s were loud too! (I was too late for the N15s.)

[Hunslet 102]

9 minutes ago, 45125 said:

The 37s were irregular performers on the service. They worked with both 27s and 25s on the service.

Thank you 

[Hunslet 102]

Hi all

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the previous advice. Modelling question this time, 00 scale.

The 101 dmu is the type I intend to model. A 3 car set appears to be the mainstay from the period. 
I have an old non working Triang 3 car set, but am I right in saying it is under scale?

A better running Bachmann would be more desirable, but they just seem to do 2 car sets. Are the coaches in these sets linked mechanically that it would be a bit of a task adding a centre coach? or if not, do Bachmann do a centre coach to make these units 3 car sets?

Any help greatly appreciated.

[GordonC]

17 minutes ago, Hunslet 102 said:

Hi all

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the previous advice. Modelling question this time, 00 scale.

The 101 dmu is the type I intend to model. A 3 car set appears to be the mainstay from the period. 
I have an old non working Triang 3 car set, but am I right in saying it is under scale?

A better running Bachmann would be more desirable, but they just seem to do 2 car sets. Are the coaches in these sets linked mechanically that it would be a bit of a task adding a centre coach? or if not, do Bachmann do a centre coach to make these units 3 car sets?

Any help greatly appreciated.

 

Hornby do or have done a 3 car Class 101 at times. No lighting like you'd normally expect in models now, but its one of the better ex-Lima toolings I'd say. If you're looking for one also search for Lima, for older releases of the same tooling. I think the Hornby ones have a more modern power-bogie but externally the same.

 

The Bachmann Class 101s have through-wiring to only require a single decoder per 2 car unit. No sign of Bachmann doing a 3-car Class 101 yet.

[Hunslet 102]

25 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

Hornby do or have done a 3 car Class 101 at times. No lighting like you'd normally expect in models now, but its one of the better ex-Lima toolings I'd say. If you're looking for one also search for Lima, for older releases of the same tooling. I think the Hornby ones have a more modern power-bogie but externally the same.

 

The Bachmann Class 101s have through-wiring to only require a single decoder per 2 car unit. No sign of Bachmann doing a 3-car Class 101 yet.

Thanks GordonC, clarifying the Bachmann unit is a great help. I will have a look for Lima/Hornby sets as a possible alternative.

[GordonC]

12 hours ago, Hunslet 102 said:

Thanks GordonC, clarifying the Bachmann unit is a great help. I will have a look for Lima/Hornby sets as a possible alternative.

 

I actually dont think there's much to pick between the two, the Bachmann doesn't look as big a step up as most current models compared to the 'previous' best model. For me the front and underframe are better on the Bachmann, but there's just something about the bodyside windows that doesnt look right to me - not sure if they're too large or too high up the bodyside.

[Legend]

Hi Hunslet

 

For 101s there seem to be 4 choices 

 

1. The original Tri-ang Met Camm DMU . Its actually a lightweight Met Camm and not really a 101 , although it can be made to look like one . Quite correct though in your thoughts , it is too short and takes a lot of work to be made into something decent . Stacks of them in eBay . Later Hornby ones from 1975 had hideous illuminated headcode added to roof , which is not correct . 

 

2. LIMA 101 from eBay . Quite a good model , but let down by noisy LIMA motor . I think they have roof pods too molded into the roof , which are not correct for early 60s 70s 

 

3. Hornby 101  ex LIMA . Much the same as above  but with a smoother, better Hornby motor . Again your going to have to look at eBay , but if you want a three car 101 this is your best bet . They have done Green , Blue and Blue Grey 3 cars and I think SPT Caledonian Blue as 2 car . There is actually a 2 car SPT one being released this year - pity it wasn't a three car . Also a shame they haven't done a refurbished white and blue stripe three car unit . I think this is still the best 101.

 

4. Bachmann 101.  Main disadvantage is its only available as a two car unit .  People have questioned the positioning of the windows on the bodyside , but for me , as with most Bachmann items its just over priced .

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Legend

[Hunslet 102]

Thanks again for your thoughts GordonC and thanks for your detailed response Legend, very helpful. I will keep an eye out for a Hornby 3 car unit 

[Type 2]

On 19/04/2023 at 10:42, Legend said:

Hi Hunslet

 

For 101s there seem to be 4 choices 

 

1. The original Tri-ang Met Camm DMU . Its actually a lightweight Met Camm and not really a 101 , although it can be made to look like one . Quite correct though in your thoughts , it is too short and takes a lot of work to be made into something decent . Stacks of them in eBay . Later Hornby ones from 1975 had hideous illuminated headcode added to roof , which is not correct . 

 

2. LIMA 101 from eBay . Quite a good model , but let down by noisy LIMA motor . I think they have roof pods too molded into the roof , which are not correct for early 60s 70s 

 

3. Hornby 101  ex LIMA . Much the same as above  but with a smoother, better Hornby motor . Again your going to have to look at eBay , but if you want a three car 101 this is your best bet . They have done Green , Blue and Blue Grey 3 cars and I think SPT Caledonian Blue as 2 car . There is actually a 2 car SPT one being released this year - pity it wasn't a three car . Also a shame they haven't done a refurbished white and blue stripe three car unit . I think this is still the best 101.

 

4. Bachmann 101.  Main disadvantage is its only available as a two car unit .  People have questioned the positioning of the windows on the bodyside , but for me , as with most Bachmann items its just over priced .

 

The Lima 101 initially had roof pods on all releases, but later a retooled roof was introduced with the pods omitted on the appropriate liveries.  As far as I'm aware, all the Hornby releases have had the correct roofs (certainly in blue & blue & grey, which I have)

 

The Bachmann version has the bodyside windows too far up the bodyside, this isn't as noticeable on blue livery but really jars on the others

 

An idea combination would be Lima bodyshells, with Bachmann cab fronts, underframes and power train.  I believe Shawplan sell cab front window frames to correct Lima's attempt which are not deep enough

[Hunslet 102]

Thank you Type 2, certainly a different alternative! I do enjoy a bit of remodelling, as I have had to do to create railcars (dmu’s) for my Irish layout!

[Hunslet 102]

Thanks again for the information supplied everyone, I can see what you mean about the price of Bachmann items Legend, their coaches seem very expensive! Is there a reason for this. Are they a much better coach, more realistic and authentic looking than similar coaches by say Hornby, Lima, Mainline or even Triang. 
Certainly, by re wheeling the older models, it would still be a cheaper option, especially for the amount of coaches required. Thoughts again greatly appreciated!

[GordonC]

4 hours ago, Hunslet 102 said:

Thanks again for the information supplied everyone, I can see what you mean about the price of Bachmann items Legend, their coaches seem very expensive! Is there a reason for this. Are they a much better coach, more realistic and authentic looking than similar coaches by say Hornby, Lima, Mainline or even Triang. 
Certainly, by re wheeling the older models, it would still be a cheaper option, especially for the amount of coaches required. Thoughts again greatly appreciated!

 

I think it probably depends on the model you're meaning. The Bachmann Mk2F is a really nice coach, but obviously the DCC fitted ones for the lighting are about £100 each now. The price of their Mk1s and Mk2s has risen pretty steadily and I'm not really sure I understand how they're quite so pricey now for the standard of tooling. You can get cheaper second-hand sometimes, but not necessarily a reliable supply of the coach types you want. If you're mixing and matching between brands they dont always look right together e.g. colour matches, window flush glazing or not, window tints etc.

 

If you're buying older models, would they necessarily need re-wheeling?

[Hunslet 102]

Thanks GordonC. The layout will be dc controlled and lighting in coaches would not be a priority.

Primarily, it will be Mk1 and Mk2 coaches that would have been in regular use at Queen Street from 1970ish to 1975ish.

Earlier in the thread Legend said an Aberdeen service could be covered with earlier Hornby Mk1 stock and him and JeremyC gave the type of Mk2 stock required for the Edinburgh service.

I have had to re wheel some old stock in the past as the wheels were wobbly, although Lima stock has generally always performed well.

Never thought about the colour matching, but yes that would be a major consideration!

[Legend]

6 hours ago, Hunslet 102 said:

Thanks again for the information supplied everyone, I can see what you mean about the price of Bachmann items Legend, their coaches seem very expensive! Is there a reason for this. Are they a much better coach, more realistic and authentic looking than similar coaches by say Hornby, Lima, Mainline or even Triang. 
Certainly, by re wheeling the older models, it would still be a cheaper option, especially for the amount of coaches required. Thoughts again greatly appreciated!

I’ve long been critical of Bachmann prices , so probably better not go into it again  !  Bachmann models are extremely good but they are probably at the top of the price envelope for mass produced ready to run. eBay or second hand can be of help here though .
 

I think for Met Camm really the Bachmann unit is just too expensive and only available in two car form , so the later Hornby versions are probably your best bet . 
 

For Mk1s I do actually run a Bachmann Blue Grey set . I think that’s still the best option . See what you can pick up second hand . No need to re wheel or anything like that . An alternative is the Hornby range of Mk1s . They are cheaper to buy new . I think the blue is a bit darker than it should be , so I prefer the Bachmann ones . There is a noticeable colour change here .  Other alternatives - well I still run a Lima set in blue/grey . Very cheap second hand , plentiful, run well. Downside is no flush glazing , however, they still look good to me , especially if 2 feet away and not able to see close detail .

 

For early Mk2s , no doubt Bachmann are the best . They are quite expensive even second hand though and I think because they are less numerous than mk1s they still command higher prices . The alternative is the Hornby coach , dates from 1969 I think , ones from 1973 onwards have silver window surrounds . They are reasonably presentable and I still use them, but a far cry from the Bachmann ones . I don’t think you could mix the two together it would just show up the deficiencies of the Hornby one . I really grudge giving Bachmann the money though , but that might be because I’m a true Scot always looking for value . 

[Hunslet 102]

Thanks for your great response Legend!

Like you, I also like a bargain and value for money, maybe 30+ years living in Scotland has helped!

So many options to choose from, but definitely no mixing.

Bachmann coaches would be a luxury, but canny purchasing could result in some good bargains.

I have Lima coaches repainted into NIR livery which are smooth runners, so I think they would be my option for the bulk of the fleet.

The Hornby 101 dmu seems to be the one to go for, thanks.

Do you have a layout thread on here displaying your blue/grey models?

[Hunslet 102]

Hi all, again!

 

I have been very intrigued by the Swindon DMU’s that operated the Glasgow to Edinburgh service up to 1971.

I assume no one has ever produced an RTR version of these units, but has there been anything produced either past or present representing these units from suppliers?

 If nothing were readily available, would there be suitable donor coaches that could be converted to represent these units?

 

 

 

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, Hunslet 102 said:

Hi all, again!

 

I have been very intrigued by the Swindon DMU’s that operated the Glasgow to Edinburgh service up to 1971.

I assume no one has ever produced an RTR version of these units, but has there been anything produced either past or present representing these units from suppliers?

 If nothing were readily available, would there be suitable donor coaches that could be converted to represent these units?

 

 

 

 

I think silver fox makes a kit of those