What Locomotives and DMU’s operated from Glasgow Queen Street in early 1970s

[Hunslet 102]

Hi all

Looking for information on what locomotives and dmu’s would have been in charge of services in and out of Glasgow Queen Street in the early 1970s era.

 I am assuming that Classes 24, 26, 27 and 29 along with 101 dmu’s would have been quite regular?, but would there have been many other variants, either regular or irregular.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I would have thought someone would have replied before now, so I'll start the ball rolling. The 29s were widrwan in 1971, at almost exactly the same time as 27s were introduced on Glasgow-Edinburgh services, so if you have 29s you should have the Swindon Inter City DMUs (the 79xxx ones, not class 123 or 126, although they were very similar to the 126s). From 1971, Glasgow-Edinburghs were worked by 27/1 push pulls topping and tailing, with about half of these converted to 27/2 in 1973, replacing the boiler with an ETH generator.

 

The West Highland line was worked almost exclusively by class 27. I am a lot less certain what worked to Oban. I've seen pictures of DMUs at Oban, but most trains were loco-hauled, I think.

 

Double-headed class 26s were the usual power on the Inverness trains, but perhaps 27s, 40s and 47s were sometimes used as well. 40s were used on the Aberdeens, but I don't know whether this was regularly, nor what else was used.

 

24s sometimes substituted for 26s and 25s for 27s. Perhaps 24s sometimes substituted for 27s, I don't know.

 

DMUs appear mostly to be three-car 101s. I recall seeing pictures of 105s and 107s north of the Clyde, but I have no idea how common this was. Hamilton's 105s were mostly three-car, with a class 101 trailer. I don't think I've heard of 116s on anything other than the south Glasgow services. Perhaps a 100 occasionally came over from Edinburgh.

 

The Fort William sleeper came into Queen Street, and the short journey from/to Mossend might have involved almost anyting, and I've heard mention of class 20s. 20s certainly came into Queen Street on what looks to be parcels workings I've only seen photos of single class 20s, not pairs.

[Hunslet 102]

Many thanks for taking the time to write your detailed reply Jeremy C, great information and very much appreciated.

The class 20 operating single is very interesting. Once released from the buffers, would it have headed bonnet first somewhere to be turned? was there a turntable at/near the station still in use?

Also, was there runaround facilities at the buffers to release the locomotives or was there a designated shunter to haul the coaches out to release the locomotives?

Again, any information greatly appreciated.

 

Andy

 

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

34 minutes ago, Hunslet 102 said:

The class 20 operating single is very interesting. Once released from the buffers, would it have headed bonnet first somewhere to be turned? was there a turntable at/near the station still in use?

I know very little of their use in Scotland, but I don't recall single class 20s being turned anywhere else; they simply worked whichever way they happened to be facing. There are plenty of pictures of class 20s hauling trains bonnet first.

 

55 minutes ago, Hunslet 102 said:

Also, was there runaround facilities at the buffers to release the locomotives or was there a designated shunter to haul the coaches out to release the locomotives?

I'm pretty sure there was no loco release. These were rare at most major terminal stations because of the additional length required, and Queen Street was very crampled.

 

The Edinburgh push pulls worked straight out, as far as I am aware. I can't imagine the West Highland or Inverness trains being turned around directly (cleaning, watering and restocking buffet cars was a far more protacted job in the 1970s than we are used to today), so they must have been hauled up the bank by something, to be serviced at Cowlairs. I've seen pictures of single class 24s and single class 26s on the front of trains ready to leave Queen Street, and these may well have been ECS workings. I don't think I've seen a picture of an 08 at Queen Street, and I doubt they were used. Cowlairs incline is 1 in 41 in places and over a mile long, so you wouldn't want an 08 taking 10 minutes to crawl up the hill and blocking anything else from leaving.

 

Rather remarkably, with the steep gradient and the crossovers inside the tunnel at Queen Street, ECS workings were propelled into the station. This had been bugging me since I first replied in this thread, since I was sure I had once boarded an Oban train without a locomotive being sandwiched up against the buffer stops. I finally found a picture to prove it: https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/18894.

 

[billywhizz]

I can confirm there was no “run round” at  Queen St. Locos were released by either using a station pilot to shunt the stock or quite often the loco at the stops would be used as banker up the Cowlairs incline. 
Cheers. 
Bill. 

[ColinK]

Probably too late for your period, but I took the video below in 1983 and if you forward to 30 minutes there are a few shots at Queen Street.

 

 

[Hunslet 102]

Many thanks again Jeremy C, most informative. I can imagine the whole operation must have been quite complex and challenging at times! A WTT of the time would be an intriguing read!

Great photo of the stock at the buffers, the post from billywizz using the locomotives as a banker makes sense, although it is not something I would have even thought of!

[Hunslet 102]

2 hours ago, billywhizz said:

I can confirm there was no “run round” at  Queen St. Locos were released by either using a station pilot to shunt the stock or quite often the loco at the stops would be used as banker up the Cowlairs incline. 
Cheers. 
Bill. 

Thanks Bill for the confirmation and information 

[Hunslet 102]

Thanks for sharing the video ColinK, a good enjoyable watch 

[pH]

An example earlier than your time, in steam days:
https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/78/234/

And how about this:

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/67/465/

 

(Presumably, the Pacific had brought in an earlier train and this was a useful way of getting it up to Eastfield.)

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by pH

[cessna152towser]

I travelled in and out of Queen Street fairly often from starting my studies at Glasgow Uni in 1969 till I moved away from the Glasgow area in 1989.

From 1969 until the early 70's I often travelled to Stirling on a Sunday to visit friends.  In those days there was no local Sunday service on that route so I was dependent on the Dundee and Aberdeen trains.  The 10:10 ex Queen Street was always worked by a type 2 (class 26 or 27).  On one occasion it stalled on Cowlairs incline and a class 29 was sent down light from Eastfield to provide banking assistance.     Returning home I would catch a train at Stirling around 8:30pm which had originated at Aberdeen and was worked by a class 40.

I made a few trips on the Swindon Inter-City DMUs on the Glasgow-Edinburgh route but I best remember the top and tail 27/1s on Mark 2 stock, and the push-pull 47s on Mark 3s which came later.

Type 2s hauled the few Oban and Fort William trains which I travelled on during the 1970s.

In 1974 I travelled from Queen Street to Aberdeen on a Sunday afternoon on a Freedom of Scotland weekly ticket.   I remember vividly that the train left Glasgow behind a class 47 because the loco caught fire on Larbert Viaduct.

Coaching stock in 1969/70 included a few Mark 1s still in maroon but gradually blue and grey prevailed at Queen Street and the last maroon stock which I can recall was in the rake used for testing and crew training between Shields Depot and Wemyss Bay in 1973/74 immediately prior to the introduction of WCML electrification over Beattock.

The Scottish Region also had a pair of Thomson buffet cars, in blue and grey livery, which were withdrawn in the early 1970s, and these were occasionally seen included in rakes which operated in and out of Queen Street.

[ColinK]

A couple pics I took on 30th April 1974

 

 

27210 and 27110 on Glasgow - Edinburgh push pull services.

 

 

40041 arriving with a train from Aberdeen.

 

 

40124 waiting to depart with the 1535 to Aberdeen.

 

 

[ColinK]

A couple more of my pics this time taken on 27th July 1978.

 

 

 

27201 on the rear of the 1600 push pull to Edinburgh.

 

[Hunslet 102]

33 minutes ago, pH said:

An example earlier than your time, in steam days:
https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/78/234/

And how about this:

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/67/465/

 

(Presumably, the Pacific had brought in an earlier train and this was a useful way of getting it up to Eastfield.)

 

 

Many thanks pH, an impressive sight on the incline!

[ColinK]

A couple more of my pics from 8th August 1985.

 

 

 

Unnamed 47715 waits to leave with the 1100 pull push to Edinburgh.

 

 

47608 on the 1130 to Stranraer, not van and Sealink coaches.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by ColinK

[Hunslet 102]

Many thanks for your memories cessna152. Great information to take on board. Very interesting about the class 47 in 1974

[Hunslet 102]

Wow, many thanks for the photos ColinK, thank you for taking the time to put them on the thread. The early 70s photos are a pictorial illustration of all what has been said by all the other replies. 
Thanks again to everyone that has contributed to the thread 

[pH]

16 minutes ago, ColinK said:

 

 

47608 on the 1130 to Stranraer, not van and Sealink coaches.

I think this is Central, not Queen Street.

[ColinK]

You’re right pH, that’s Central - I’ll have to correct my photo index.  I’m slowly scanning my slides and making a spreadsheet index so it’s easy to find locos/locations etc.

[Legend]

I think it was basically a diet of 24/25/26/27 and 40s  with 101s on the local services . Class 40s we’re on the Aberdeen Services which were originally mk1s but then went to mk2s mid seventies . I think the Inverness trains were pairs of 24s/26s until 47s replaced them probably mid 70s . 47s then also took over the Aberdeen trains but I think that was from 78 ish . They were the non ETH variety . I think Eastfield  had a few in the 47201 sequence 
 

I have seen it written that 37s occasionally substituted for a 27 on the push pulls . I’ve seen a picture where a 25 was substituted but not a 37 . 
 

At some point 107s appeared on local trains but I don’t think that was until late 70s 

 

I do remember you tended to get the loco that had pulled the train in then helping to push the train out again through the tunnels . Presumably that’s how it got back to Eastfield .They usually left with a roar from the platform end as they charged the gradient . I well remember a 25 that had brought in a Dundee train pushing it back out . I don’t know what the train engine was . 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Legend

[Hunslet 102]

Thanks for sharing your information Legend, much appreciated.

The wealth of information shared on the thread has been amazing and been a great insight and help for my future plans 

[Morello Cherry]

This topic might be of interest to you.

 

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

There are some photographs of trains from Queen Street in the David Cross books Heyday of the Scottish diesels and Scottish diesels — a colour portfolio, including a Glasgow–Edinburgh train with a class 37 and class 25 in charge, still with pre-TOPS numbering if I remember correctly. This is well before 37s became common on the West Highland.

The only DMU to feature on the Oban branch would probably be the "Mexican Bean" class 104.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

4 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

The only DMU to feature on the Oban branch would probably be the "Mexican Bean" class 104.

Oban had a long-running but rather intermittent summer DMU working from Queen Street, aimed it would seem at day-trippers. A trial in 1958 used Buchanan Street and the Callander line with class 120s. Class 120s were then used in 1960 on "Land Cruises", which included trips to both Oban and Fort William (from Queen Street via Helensburgh and dividing at Crianlarich). In 1962, Oban got a regular summer class 120 working from Queen Street via Helensburgh, which continued each summer until 1970.

 

In 1975, the summer DMU service from Queen Street to Oban was revived with the prototype refurbished class 101, numbers 51451, 59545 and 51518. The service does not appear to have continued in future years.

 

Then in 1985, a connecting service was put on between Oban and Crianlarich to meet with certain West Highland trains, and this was provided using the Mexican Bean class 104, 53434 + 53424. The set used to work to and from Glasgow once a week on the back of a service train. This service was revived in summer 1986 and summer 1987. Eastfield got other 104 sets in the mid-1980s as the 107s were withdrawn, and these worked in and out of Queen Street till 1989. All rather late for this thread, though.

 

All the above information is from the wonderfully informative railcar.co.uk site. However, there are other pictures of DMUs at Oban that I can find no mention of in railcar.co.uk, including this one from September 1973 by Peter James. It's a 3-car class 101, quite possibly 50254+59568+50264 which the same person photographed at Dalmally the same day:

The loco is a class 27, and I recommend looking at this person's other pictures (click on the image to follow the link to Flikr) from the same time as they provide a useful record of train formations, including a 4-wheel Southern U van (CCT in BR parlance), still in (very dirty) green paint on a West Highland service at Rannoch.

 

[Hunslet 102]

Thank you for attaching the old thread Morello, a great recollection of information. I can imagine some fun was had at times between drivers!