What Locomotives and DMU’s operated from Glasgow Queen Street in early 1970s

[Hunslet 102]

Thank you for your input and information Nimbus

[Hunslet 102]

1 hour ago, Jeremy C said:

Oban had a long-running but rather intermittent summer DMU working from Queen Street, aimed it would seem at day-trippers. A trial in 1958 used Buchanan Street and the Callander line with class 120s. Class 120s were then used in 1960 on "Land Cruises", which included trips to both Oban and Fort William (from Queen Street via Helensburgh and dividing at Crianlarich). In 1962, Oban got a regular summer class 120 working from Queen Street via Helensburgh, which continued each summer until 1970.

 

In 1975, the summer DMU service from Queen Street to Oban was revived with the prototype refurbished class 101, numbers 51451, 59545 and 51518. The service does not appear to have continued in future years.

 

Then in 1985, a connecting service was put on between Oban and Crianlarich to meet with certain West Highland trains, and this was provided using the Mexican Bean class 104, 53434 + 53424. The set used to work to and from Glasgow once a week on the back of a service train. This service was revived in summer 1986 and summer 1987. Eastfield got other 104 sets in the mid-1980s as the 107s were withdrawn, and these worked in and out of Queen Street till 1989. All rather late for this thread, though.

 

All the above information is from the wonderfully informative railcar.co.uk site. However, there are other pictures of DMUs at Oban that I can find no mention of in railcar.co.uk, including this one from September 1973 by Peter James. It's a 3-car class 101, quite possibly 50254+59568+50264 which the same person photographed at Dalmally the same day:

The loco is a class 27, and I recommend looking at this person's other pictures (click on the image to follow the link to Flikr) from the same time as they provide a useful record of train formations, including a 4-wheel Southern U van (CCT in BR parlance), still in (very dirty) green paint on a West Highland service at Rannoch.

 

Once again many thanks for the great information Jeremy C and also for the link to that chap’s photos, which will be a great resource reference 

[darrel]

Remember the parcels depot was still open. Not sure if there would have been a class 08 for shunting. Before my time. 

[Hunslet 102]

17 minutes ago, darrel said:

Remember the parcels depot was still open. Not sure if there would have been a class 08 for shunting. Before my time. 

Thanks Darrel. Consensus seems to be that an 08 would not have been needed. 

[GordonC]

Just a suggestion, but I'd wonder if your topic might get more responses in the 'Prototype Questions' section rather than 'Modelling Questions' ... I know you're asking for modelling purposes, but it does relate to a prototype location

[Hunslet 102]

17 minutes ago, GordonC said:

Just a suggestion, but I'd wonder if your topic might get more responses in the 'Prototype Questions' section rather than 'Modelling Questions' ... I know you're asking for modelling purposes, but it does relate to a prototype location

Thanks GordonC. As you say, my query was from a modelling perspective and I didn’t really think of the other section. I have been really pleased with the information that members have provided on this thread to date, if I feel I need more information I can repost on the prototype thread. Many thanks 

[Hunslet 102]

Many thanks again to all who contributed to the thread, much information was gleaned re the locomotives and dmu’s , with a period span from ‘72ish to ‘76ish, with a bit of modellers licence!

 

As a follow on, I was looking to establish the regular Mk1 and Mk2 coaching stock which would be most common around this time. Would Mk1 stock be more LMS type or LNER type or a mixture of both etc. Would Mk2 stock be more A,B or C or a mixture of all and the parcel traffic, would it have been 4 or 6 wheel vans or bogie vans.

 

Again, any help or recollections of information would be greatly appreciated.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

The Glasgow-Edinburgh push pulls were original (pre-Mk2A) Mk 2s fitted with air brakes - these were unique to this route, but I don't know nearly enough about BR coaching stock to tell you what the differences were from a standard Mk2. The standard formation was BSO-FK-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO (edited based on looking at photographs - the BSO might be either way round). The BSO was always at the Glasgow end - it was a rule for working Cowlairs incline that all trains working out of Queen Street had a brake at the Glasgow end. There is a lovely article on the Glasgow-Edinburgh push pulls here: https://www.6lda28.com/shove.html.

ETH-fitted locomotives (class 27/2) appeared in 1973, and the usual arrangement was a 27/1 at one end and a 27/2 at the other. The coaches already had dual heating so no further modifications were needed.

 

Almost everything else would have been Mk1s during your period, vacuum braked with steam heating, and the photos I've seen show a number of them still on BR1 bogies, interspersed with Commonwealths and the occasional B4. Mk2s were relatively unusual. There's a Mk2 BFK leading in the left hand train in ColinK's top picture dated 30th April 1974, which almost certainly isn't an Edinburgh push-pull, and the headcode appears to begin 2N, which would make it a Stirling or Perth service. I've also seen a picture of Mk2 FK or FO in an Inverness-Edinburgh train otherwise made up of Mk1s. Unfortunately, few photographers paid much attention to the carriages, and I wasn't particularly interested in them myself at that age.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Jeremy C

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, Hunslet 102 said:

Would Mk1 stock be more LMS type or LNER type or a mixture of both etc.

Not sure what you mean by this?

[Hunslet 102]

Once again many thanks JeremyC, most informative and helpful and thanks also for the article link, much appreciated 

[Hunslet 102]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

Not sure what you mean by this?

Hi Hal, I was not sure if any older coaches were still in use around this time from the original big 4, and if they were, which companies coaches would have been more prevalent. I should have put other than the new British Rail Mk1 stock, sorry for the confusion, hope that makes sense and thanks for highlighting 

[stovepipe]

Someone already mentioned the 24/26 combination on the Inverness trains, it was much less commonly two of the same class. There were two loco hauled morning commuter services from Perth/Dundee which were often 25 hauled. There was also an early morning newspaper service from Edinburgh which was diagrammed for a 37 in the days when they were uncommon at Queen St. I think the 10:10 departure to Dundee was used for many years to test locos out of St Rollox Works, so you would see 20s in combination with 27s occasionally, as well as 26s.

 

There are some ScR WTTs for this era on the Timetable World website btw.

[Matt]

9 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

don't know nearly enough about BR coaching stock to tell you what the differences were from a standard Mk2.

I’m not sure I know much more except that the std Mk2 had a different corridor connecting door (appears flat from outside compared with twin leaf of Mk2a and later).  Also the upgraded Mk2s for E-G services had disc brakes fitted instead of tread brakes which I believe was the standard across Mk2s of all series excepting some of the Mk2f DBSOs.

M

[ColinK]

The push pull coaches had some extra piping on the side of the bogies, may have been one side only. Somewhere on here there is a thread about modelling them.  I made a rake following the article, all I did was fit brake discs, the extra pipes and renumbered them, not perfect but enough for me.  The 27/2 is easy to make, there is an etch of the extra little circular grilles available, these just  glue on, plus you need to add an extra pipe along the solebar on one side only.  All these modifications are hardly visable from 3 feet away.

[Legend]

14 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

The Glasgow-Edinburgh push pulls were original (pre-Mk2A) Mk 2s fitted with air brakes - these were unique to this route, but I don't know nearly enough about BR coaching stock to tell you what the differences were from a standard Mk2. The standard formation was BSO-SO-FK-SO-SO-SO. The BSO was always at the Glasgow end - it was a rule for working Cowlairs incline that all trains working out of Queen Street had a brake at the Glasgow end. There is a lovely article on the Glasgow-Edinburgh push pulls here: https://www.6lda28.com/shove.html.

ETH-fitted locomotives (class 27/2) appeared in 1973, and the usual arrangement was a 27/1 at one end and a 27/2 at the other. The coaches already had dual heating so no further modifications were needed.

 

 

 

Hi Jeremy . I thought the standard formation of the Edinburgh Glasgow push pulls was BSO-FK-SO-SO-SO-SO.   Brake and FK at the Glasgow end 

 

Just been looking up some books , inspired by this thread. BR Diesel Traction in Scotland by George C O'Hara (well recommended) has a picture of  of a Green 40  no 357 (no D by that time) departing on a train to Aberdeen  with a Maroon mk 1 as leading coach (SC24941).  Date 4th Sept 1971

 

Any pictures I've found of Gresley or Stanier stock seems to be before 1965.  I know there were some Gresley buffets in blue grey but cant remember them at Queen St or find any pictures . 

 

I'm trying to remember when Mk2s (either original mk2 or mk2As) went onto the Aberdeen route . They were certainly there by 1977 but I cant remember when they started.  The Aberdeens had RMB buffets because I remember thinking you could create the whole train using Hornby Stock with a Joueff 40 up front!

Edited April 3, 2023 by Legend

[Jeremy Cumberland]

17 minutes ago, Legend said:

Hi Jeremy . I thought the standard formation of the Edinburgh Glasgow push pulls was BSO-FK-SO-SO-SO-SO.   Brake and FK at the Glasgow end 

You are right. I checked a couple of pictures, and must have been editing my post at the same time you were posting. Also, they were TSOs (2+2 seating) rather than SOs (2+1 seating - this distinction only existed in early Mk2s as far as I am aware).

[GordonC]

There is this topic on the Gresley buffets, sounds like they were still used until 1977 although some were based elsewhere and sound like they spent more time on the ECML. 9132 and possibly 9124 sound like they were based at Cowlairs for Inverness and Aberdeen services.

 

It also refers to two Thompson buffets 1705/1706 used on internal Scottish services.

 

 

[Legend]

28 minutes ago, GordonC said:

There is this topic on the Gresley buffets, sounds like they were still used until 1977 although some were based elsewhere and sound like they spent more time on the ECML. 9132 and possibly 9124 sound like they were based at Cowlairs for Inverness and Aberdeen services.

 

It also refers to two Thompson buffets 1705/1706 used on internal Scottish services.

 

 

 I dont remember seeing them , but as with many I was more concerned with the locomotives than coaches back then 

[Hunslet 102]

Wonderful information and details once again from everyone.

 Thanks Stovepipe and Matt for your detailed replies and I will check out timetable world, which I had never heard of before.

Thanks ColinK for your details on the locomotives, although as a modeller I do like the 3 foot rule!

Jeremy C and Legend, your input to the thread has been invaluable, many thanks for the time and effort that you have spent on supplying the information.

GordonC , thanks for the link to the old thread, I will check it out. It would appear that old pre nationalisation buffet coaches were still in use, with probably only post nationalisation Mk1s and Mk2s .
 

[Gwiwer]

My notes from the 1971 - 4 period show that Queen Street was quite varied but there was a sort of standardisation within that variety.  

 

Oban and Fort William / Mallaig trains were normally class 26, very occasionally double-headed.  The "school train" on the Oban line which I believe might have been non-timetabled (but now is - it's the afternoon Oban - Dalmally and back working) was a 101 triple.  

Inverness trains were usually class 27 or less often one of the Inverness 26s, again sometimes double-headed but the constraints of Queen Street meant that was avoided where ever possible.  Some such trains were double-headed only north of Perth.  

Aberdeen trains were 27 or 40 with the latter considered a poor substitute for the still-lamented A4s.  

Edinburgh trains via the main line were InterCity DMU sets in 3-car or 6-car formation but which were replaced with 27 push-pull sets early in the 1970s. 

Local services and those out to Stirling, Falkirk and the likes were mostly class 101 triples but with oddities thrown in.  Sc55000 was one such.  I first saw that in a 6-car formation of 101 triple + 122 + 116 twin; there were some class 116 cars in Scotland at the time although they were generally confined to "South of the Clyde" routes.  116s were also seen on the Springburn - Cumbernauld shuttle.  

No station pilot was normally provided in Queen Street because of the tight location neither was there a loco-release; outbound trains were sometimes helped up the bank by the inbound loco pushing (though not coupled) and dropping off at Cowlairs.  If shunt assistance were needed it would have been an 06, rather than an 08, often as not.  

 

The 29s had ended on passenger service by then but could still be seen on the occasional freight or van train.  Eastfield also contained a goodly number of then-withdrawn examples alongside many redundant class 17 "Claytons"; that is a type I never saw in traffic.  I never noted a 20 in Glasgow but they have been recorded.  

 

The London - Fort William sleeper has been mentioned above.  That could come and go by one of many routes even before the south-to-east curve was laid at Cowlairs.  I have arrived with the loco leading on most occasions but on one trip we arrived loco trailing!!!  Having come via Gartcosh and Springburn we proceeded to stop alongside Eastfield Depot before descending reverse-formation and hopefully with a shunter travelling in the leading vehicle!  Traction was a 47.  On another occasion we ran past Eastfield and turned left, stopping clear of Cowlairs West Junction near where Ashfield station now is.  We then reversed around the north side of the triangle so as to be facing south with the loco leading at Cowlairs East and descended to Queen Street also behind a 47.  I have also stopped twice at Queen Street on the southbound train.  Taking the Partick route rather than the usual Maryhill line we ran into Queen Street Low Level, stopped and to my surprise were announced as the train to Glasgow Queen Street.  Having set down most folk we then continued via Springburn and a reversal / run-round at Eastfield (the Cowlairs Chord not yet being available) and dropped into Queen Street High Level around 45 minutes later!  For good measure I have also used that train when it came via Central Low Level (without stopping), Rutherglen West Curve and into Central High Level!  The first two were being 26s; the trip into Central was more recent and behind a 37/4.  

[pH]

3 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 I never noted a 20 in Glasgow but they have been recorded.  

I presume the words “Queen Street” are implied!

[GordonC]

29 minutes ago, pH said:

I presume the words “Queen Street” are implied!

 

Class 20s definitely operated as Station Pilots at times in Queen Street

 

[Strathyre]

14 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

Class 20s definitely operated as Station Pilots at times in Queen Street

 

They were only used as a last resort when there wasn't a type 2, normally a 27, available. They just gave problems, with the nose leading into Queen St judging the stopping point before hitting the buffers, or when cab leading into Queen St (which was fine for avoiding the buffers!) with banking out to Cowlairs, which the pilot engine almost always did. Banking engines were not coupled onto the back of the train, as that would've meant stopping at the head of the incline to tie off and would cost time as a result. I never worked a 20 on the pilot myself but would've expected the crew to tie it on to the back of the train if banking out with the bonnet leading, for the sake of safety.

 

Paul

[Hunslet 102]

Thank you Gwiwer for your detailed reply and observations and also the class 20 confirmation GordonC 

[Hunslet 102]

Thanks Strathyre, very interesting with the bonnet first scenario, which must have been a restriction to the class all over. Thanks for sharing