DC>E-Link>Digitrax DCS52/JMRI>Now what? (Given HM7000 has arrived)

[wappinghigh]

28 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

 

 

Since the OP finds his DCS52 a joy to use, and has the benefits of JMRI, I'm not clear what value this Hornby product would add to his operations.

 

 

That's obvious...

Surely?? 

Bluetooth alteration of CV's (on the fly) negating the need for expensive and awkward to use third party devices that still use serial interfaces into computers (think ESU) 

An ever increasing array of available sound files that you don't have to get preloaded by a third party

Hot swappable DCC chips - then reload the new sound file DIY

All the loco's available in one app and controllable via the phone with the computer shut off and no wifi needed

(If the dongle syncs with the DCC controller)

This would include non bluetooth DCC chips - so you won;t need to swap out every chip - a necessity now as we are finding many of the new bluetooth chips are too big (partic the Next-18s).

Get to keep any original sound filed chips (and use and control all within the one app) you have paid big dollars for in past - non redundancy .

(Also any future bluetooth controllable points and signals) negating the use of complex wiring

Resale of new HM7000 chips should be improved as they can be wiped to generic 

Easy to DIY fit speakers and stay alives without soldering

No need for programming tracks..

There are probably several more advantages but I will let others chime in... 

... cheers ... 😀 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by wappinghigh

[NIK]

Hi,

 

Hornby have only done the launch of HM7000, so just as there are only a few TT:120 locos announced at launch there are only a few HM7000 options at launch plus the decoders are designed to work without a DCC command station.

 

If Hornby stop supplying TTS decoders in the future that is unhelpful, as it would be if the stop supplying them now.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, wappinghigh said:

 

……..There are probably several more advantages but I will let others chime in... 

... cheers ... 😀 

 

That’s mostly from the perspective of an existing DCC user.

The greatest advantage is low cost entry into DCC, without the need to buy an expensive, hardware DCC system.

A great boon for newcomers to the hobby, who can immediately access the modern day functions and features of model train control and not be restricted to simplistic and limited DC operation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[Oldddudders]

2 hours ago, wappinghigh said:

Bluetooth alteration of CV's (on the fly) negating the need for expensive and awkward to use third party devices that still use serial interfaces into computers (think ESU) 

SNIP

Hot swappable DCC chips - then reload the new sound file DIY

All the loco's available in one app and controllable via the phone with the computer shut off and no wifi needed

(If the dongle syncs with the DCC controller)

SNIP

No need for programming tracks..

There are probably several more advantages but I will let others chime in... 

No chimes audible here.

 

Your Zephyr Express can already alter CVs on any loco anywhere on the layout, via Ops Mode - have you actually tried that? 

 

Hot swappable DCC chips means what, exactly? The trickiest part of chip installation on modern locos is usually getting the body off without damage. 

 

Why do you need an app to control locos? Your DCS52 can access rather more than 9000 addresses, which may just be enough. Up to 20 locos can be run at once. Most of us find that actually controlling two locos at the same time is tough enough. 

 

I use my programming track very occasionally, for an obstinate loco, or one that has lost its address.

 

We clearly come from different parts of Planet DCC. 

[auditdata]

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

That’s mostly from the perspective of an existing DCC user.

The greatest advantage is low cost entry into DCC, without the need to buy an expensive, hardware DCC system.

A great boon for newcomers to the hobby, who can immediately access the modern day functions and features of model train control and not be restricted to simplistic and limited DC operation.

I think that is right. As a newbie it seemd an obvious way to go. Low cost decoder with sound and no need for a controller. 

[newbryford]

21 hours ago, Bob83a said:

The HM7040 dongle connects to a command station using an RJ12 connector. It converts the Bluetooth signals from the App on a phone or tablet into Xpressnet which tells the command station what to send on the DCC bus.

Xpressnet is supported by the Elite/Select, Lenz and some other manufactures who may also provide RJ12 connection.

 

Hornby are testing the dongle with both the Elite and Select and have also mentioned some testing with Lenz devices. Testing can be a very expensive exercise and take considerable time.

 

 

The original info shows a Roco Z21 and a Lenz Compact alongside a Select and Elite.

Which I would hope they would use as a minimum for testing, but add a Lenz LZV100 please!

 

 

Screenshot from the Hornby release page.

 

 

 

 

[Pmorgancym]

As a DCC dabbler, it's a cheaper way in, and the App interface is far more intuitive than your average budget dcc handset, which still composes of a myriad of buttons with unclear abbreviations and an led screen with yet more.

[RAF96]

14 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

The original info shows a Roco Z21 and a Lenz Compact alongside a Select and Elite.

Which I would hope they would use as a minimum for testing, but add a Lenz LZV100 please!

 

 

Screenshot from the Hornby release page.

 

 

 

 

 

Once the production HM7040 dongle is available to test - estimated soon - then the extended test team will check it out with as many bits of kit as they can get their collective hands on.

Some older Xpressnet capable kit uses different connectors so an adapter will have to be found for those. Some kit does not use true Xpressnet and again if available this kit will be proved.

My pre-production sample worked superbly with an Elite and Select and the dongle will expand the app control to operation of regular decoders not just Bluetooth ones. There is no limit on the number of regular decoders you can control from the dongle and it is thought multiple dongles could be used to allow multiple app users to operate their own group of locos on a layout via the single dcc controller similar to the way Select handsets can be daisy chained as walkabouts. Testing will confirm this theory.

[Ron Ron Ron]

54 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

 

…….There is no limit on the number of regular decoders you can control from the dongle and it is thought multiple dongles could be used to allow multiple app users to operate their own group of locos on a layout via the single dcc controller similar to the way Select handsets can be daisy chained as walkabouts. Testing will confirm this theory.

Might it have been better to use WiFi for the smart device to dongle communication (retaining Bluetooth for Comms with the decoders), meaning multiple users could use a single WiFi dongle?

Smartphones and tablets can use Bluetooth and WiFi simultaneously.

 

 

.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[Buhar]

On 09/04/2023 at 13:38, Oldddudders said:

Why do you need an app to control locos? Your DCS52 can access rather more than 9000 addresses, which may just be enough. Up to 20 locos can be run at once. Most of us find that actually controlling two locos at the same time is tough enough. 

For me the biggest advantage of the app is straightforward access to functions, a single press on a labelled part of the screen rather than remembering a button or two and then the push to activate it.  Some control units are even more fiddly.  That said, I don't get on with screen sliders for loco control (I really like my ZTC for those of a certain age).

Alan

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Buhar said:

For me the biggest advantage of the app is straightforward access to functions, a single press on a labelled part of the screen rather than remembering a button or two and then the push to activate it.  ........

 

You can already have that with a few, regular DCC systems, that use similar throttle GUI's.

 

 

.

[Scott Read]

OK just to add to this, I have an HM7000-8TXS Sound Decoder running on JMRI through a SPROG 3, no issues so far.....touches all the wood.

The only thing that I can see will need doing is someone creating the Decoder Definitions, as these are not available on JMRI yet (unless someone has found these?)

[Nigelcliffe]

9 hours ago, Scott Read said:

OK just to add to this, I have an HM7000-8TXS Sound Decoder running on JMRI through a SPROG 3, no issues so far.....touches all the wood.

The only thing that I can see will need doing is someone creating the Decoder Definitions, as these are not available on JMRI yet (unless someone has found these?)

 

Get on and write one. 

     
Hornby are a  niche provider of DCC things, who sell stuff in a small island off the coast of Europe.  They are not a big fish.   
I don't know if the TTS files would be a good starting point, or if Hornby have changed everything around so starting from TTS would be a bad idea.  

 

 

- Nigel

 

[RAF96]

7 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Get on and write one. 

     
Hornby are a  niche provider of DCC things, who sell stuff in a small island off the coast of Europe.  They are not a big fish.   
I don't know if the TTS files would be a good starting point, or if Hornby have changed everything around so starting from TTS would be a bad idea.  

 

 

- Nigel

 

All the decoder CVs to ID both the decoder and the sound profile and the various hardware and software versions are detailed in the famous manual, downloadable from the Hornby site. The full list of sound profiles to date is also on the Hornby Additional Manuals area along with each loco Function listing. Nice steady job for a JMRI capable chap to write up the definitions from.

[Haymarket47]

On 08/04/2023 at 06:50, wappinghigh said:

Ok, so what are we to make of Hornby's new HM7000 Bluetooth compatible control/range?

 

As the title suggests, over the years on my layout I have moved from DC to DCC (Railmaster/E-Link) to a Digitrax DCS52 controller which I manually use/throttle at the same time I am using JMRI running on my macbook pro 

 

So what are we to make of where Hornby wishes the HM7000 to "take us"? 

 

What I have discovered so far

 

1/ The E-link is not compatible with the HM7040 "Dongle". There is no plug in the unit to connect the dongle to it... So Hornby?.. basically am I supposed to ditch this and throw it in the bin? 

2/ I love My Digitrax DCS52. It's been problem free and the throttle is fun to use.. I think I have a connection point for the new Hornby dongle.. but wait.. best to check the communication protocol you might ask! Yep not compatible!!! (It's loconet not XpressNet!) So Hornby am I now supposed to ditch my DCS52?!!!

3/ I like using JMRI. So how does Hornby's HM7000 interface with that? Will it ever? Is there a way? So Hornby am I supposed to ditch all the time and effort setting up JMRI (just to control yr new bluetooth DCC chips .just because you think it's the best thing since sliced bread and is going to "revolutionise DCC control"? )

 

Is it only me who thinks this is yet another attempt by Hornby to "wrestle control" of our layouts (think their railmaster/e-link marketing spin).. only that yet again this will fail because it tries to lock us down to their ecosystem (it;s not open source)?

 

Why am I starting to think the HM7000 is just for glorified train sets or to entice people back into the hobby with cool marketing spin like "Bluetooth control".. and that it will all end in tears??

 

Comments welcome (and any help with interfacing HM7000 into my setup)

 

Cheers! 

Nobody is forcing you to buy Hornby decoders - other makes are and always will be available 😂

 

On 08/04/2023 at 22:24, wappinghigh said:

Thanks for all the help

I am not on a rant BTW- I am just tired of Hornby not supporting even it's own legacy systems...

And thinking they and only they have all the answers to train and layout control..

That is what they have been implying with the new HM7000 release..

I've watched all the marketing vids.. 

I mean not supporting Railmaster? 

Not supporting JMRI (properly)?

Come on..

Just because it's bluetooth...

Do they seriously think without doing this the HM7000 system is going to be the future platform?

(just MO) 

It’s not possible to support all legacy systems all the time.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Haymarket47
Double point

[wappinghigh]

^What's yr point 47?

We all know this, that's not the point of the thread.

Of course nobody is "forcing anybody to do anything" and of course it's well known there are other decoder manufacturers 

BTW railmaster is Hornby's very own legacy system (last I checked) and it was their last attempt to "control the DCC space".

The point of the thread is the HM7040 is not all cracked up to be what they initially implied it was (a dongle to control non bluetooth DCC chips using the app via legacy DCC controllers) and the fact that it is xpressnet (only) was buried in all the marketing hype - which is going to exclude alot of peoples DCC controllers. Particularly people likely to have large layouts and lots of locomotives. The very people who may well be interested in more of a spend upgrading their DCC chips to bluetooth to make things like CV control easier, or control it all (as well) from the Hornby app..

The point of the thread is, can there be a workaround to get it all working with JMRI and loconet, or do I have to ditch my Digitrax system and get some other DCC controller, if I buy a whole lot of HM7000 chips...

Cheers 

Edited April 22, 2023 by wappinghigh

[andyman7]

GIven how new the H&M 7000 setup is, I'm happy to sit out being an 'early adopter' in marketing speak and let the dust settle - a lot of the issues highlighted here will work their way out one way or another over the next year or so

[wappinghigh]

33 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

GIven how new the H&M 7000 setup is, I'm happy to sit out being an 'early adopter' in marketing speak and let the dust settle - a lot of the issues highlighted here will work their way out one way or another over the next year or so

Sure. 

I have a lot of DCC chips I don't want to swap out (they have some really unique sound tracks for example )

But I am also continuing to buy newer models ...lots of them Hornby, without chips (ie DC only) as I can see this move to bluetooth may well be a gamechanger. And I want to wait see how it all unfolds..

But I'm not going to suddenly buy dozens of Hornby DCC bluetooth chips, until they sort these type of issues out..

The longer they take, the more likely chance some other large chip manufacturer in the same space is going to come along and steal their bluetooth layout control.. 

That is one of the points I am making..

They should have nailed this down before the launch, made the dongle (or equivalent interface) more open source - so they had the chance to become a major (or even the major player) in DCC computer (now phone) layout control...

The longer they take to sort these  issues out, the greater the chance it all ends up like Railmaster... something I'd take as a guess ended up with very little market share of "DCC computer control.."

Just MO 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

So I think Hornby has made a major  mistake not making that dongle more "open source"...

It should have been open source and all the connection issues nailed down - either via multi-interface or even wifi (as someone eluded to) ..deals done with other manufacturers (if required) etc ..certainly tested with other manufacturers gear before the launch of the entire platform...

Bluetooth has been around for decades. They have had plenty of time to do all this...

Is what is implied - nobody at Hornby uses JMRI? 

That Hornby doesn't know about devices like the Digikeijs DR5000? 

They couldn't have got one and tested it? Even bought out the IP/tech/company (has it gone bust)?

By not designing, testing prior and launching this dongle properly, it is likely they have missed a huge opportunity to become the dominant platform in Bluetooth layout control 

That is very disappointing - as I am huge fan of Hornby. And in general love their approach and support of the hobby.

And have lots of their models and other equipment.

(Just MO) 

Edited April 22, 2023 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

That dongle is the key to the uptake of the entire HM7000 platform...

Edited April 22, 2023 by wappinghigh

[NIK]

On 10/04/2023 at 07:30, Pmorgancym said:

As a DCC dabbler, it's a cheaper way in, and the App interface is far more intuitive than your average budget dcc handset, which still composes of a myriad of buttons with unclear abbreviations and an led screen with yet more.

Hi,

 

I think the NCE Power Cab and Pro Cab have clear English labels for most buttons and for the display.

I don't know of any commercial systems with LED screens.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[wappinghigh]

^Yep.

(Another reason backing up what I have previously posted...)

Has the HM7040 been tested with NCE?

Or Gaugemaster?

If not why not?

Aren't they the two biggest players in DCC control? 

[Ron Ron Ron]

41 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

^Yep.

(Another reason backing up what I have previously posted...)

Has the HM7040 been tested with NCE?

Or Gaugemaster?

If not why not?

Aren't they the two biggest players in DCC control? 

Why would they test it with incompatible systems?

The dongle is an XpressNet interface.

NCE and Gaugemaster (i.e. re-badged MRC) systems don’t use XpressNet.

 

Having additional dongles compatible with other throttle bus protocols would certainly be commercially useful to Hornby.

 

…

[wappinghigh]

51 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

Having additional dongles compatible with other throttle bus protocols would certainly be commercially useful to Hornby.

 

…

These different bus protocols have been around for years..

I 100% agree with your statement - it absolutely would be commercially useful to Hornby...

That is entirely my point! 

So where are these dongles!? 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by wappinghigh

[wappinghigh]

What is wrong with Hornby (as a commercial organisation)  that the development teams/management, wouldn't have realised this, like years ago already!