Tender springs under the axle boxes

[BlackFivesMatter]

I've recently acquired a Caledonian Jumbo whose tender has the springs under the axle boxes. I've seen photos of this but never found out why the springs were fitted thus. 

Is there a reason or was this one of Dugald Drummonds "goods ideas"? 

[Gordon A]

A picture would be helpful.

 

[burgundy]

I suspect he may have got the idea from Stroudley, while he was Works Manager at Brighton. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

Edited April 8, 2023 by burgundy
Photo added

[Caley Jim]

That's not a Caley Jumbo!   The original Jumbos did have Stroudley-style 2850gal tenders with underslung springs, but not Stroudley cab roofs, Salter safety valves or tapering copper capped chimneys.  Nor should it have lamp irons on the footplate.  The CR only had lamp irons in front of the chimney and on the cab sides.  If that was sold to you as a CR Jumbo, then you've been mis-sold and are entitled to your money back!

 

Jim

[asmay2002]

15 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

That's not a Caley Jumbo!  

 

Jim

LBSCR C class I think in goods engine green.

 

[Caley Jim]

3 minutes ago, asmay2002 said:

LBSCR C class I think in goods engine green.

 

Yes, I have just been alerted to the fact that I didn't notice that that photo was not of the loco to which the original question related! I will suitable chastise myself!

 

Jim

[Caley Jim]

Although it was only the first few batches of Jumbos which were fitted with these Stroudley-style tenders from new, in later years tenders tended to get swapped around.  Locos built with Drummond boilers had the safety valves on top of the dome as was his practice.  This was to reduce the number of openings in the boiler.

 

Jim

[pH]

Some of the 0-6-0s built by Drummond for the NBR, which became LNER classes J32 and J34, and 0-6-0s  built by Holmes, which became class J33, also had underhung springs on the tender.

For example:

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-drummond-nbr-0-6-0-no51-of-the-lner-j32-class-112661983.html

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by pH

[burgundy]

10 hours ago, asmay2002 said:

LBSCR C class I think in goods engine green.

 

As Andy points out, this is a Stroudley C class - and it was what I intended to buy (kit from EBM)!

The point that I was trying to make is that Drummond was at Brighton when these locos were built. So also was Robert Billinton, as Chief Draughtsman, and there are a number of common strands in their work. 

For whatever reason, tenders with underhung springs were mainly allocated to goods locos and most passenger locos received Stroudley's inside framed design. Can anyone advise whether Stroudley built any tenders while at Inverness, or whether there are other similar designs that go back before 1870?

Best wishes 

Eric   

Edited April 9, 2023 by burgundy

[Lochgorm]

Stroudley didn’t build any tenders during his time at Inverness.  Highland tenders of that era were based on the Crewe type from its association with Alexander Allan and springs were most definitely above the axle boxes.  However in all likelihood the underslung springs were a connivance between Drummond and Stroudley during their time together at Brighton and used by Drummond in his early designs when he came north to the NBR and CR.

Charlie

[BlackFivesMatter]

Interesting that some other railways, and particularly those influenced by Dugald Drummond used the under-axle springs.

 

Was there and mechanical or engineering advantage to this or was it a "because I can". Given that it did not last long and the normal location of springs became universal I wonder what the rationale was? 

[Wickham Green too]

I would GUESS that it enabled placement of the spring in the same plane as the frame and the bearing centre ........ some other C19 tenders had the spring within a cutout in the frame above the 'box and, similarly, in the same plane ................ what we think of as a conventional design - with the spring outside the frame plate - relies on the use of sturdy brackets off the latter to take the weight ( maybe stiffer frame plates too ).

[Blandford1969]

6 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I would GUESS that it enabled placement of the spring in the same plane as the frame and the bearing centre ........ some other C19 tenders had the spring within a cutout in the frame above the 'box and, similarly, in the same plane ................ what we think of as a conventional design - with the spring outside the frame plate - relies on the use of sturdy brackets off the latter to take the weight ( maybe stiffer frame plates too ).

Maybe, but they would have been a real pain to change being behind the frames. Then again labour was cheap and accidents did not matter to the railway companies in those far off times.

[burgundy]

13 hours ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

Interesting that some other railways, and particularly those influenced by Dugald Drummond used the under-axle springs.

 

Was there and mechanical or engineering advantage to this or was it a "because I can". Given that it did not last long and the normal location of springs became universal I wonder what the rationale was? 

If you mount the springs above the footplate, it limits the width (and therefore capacity) of the tender body. Underhanging means that you can mount a rather wider tender body. 

Mounting the springs between the axlebox and the footplate is the obvious better solution but was there a technical constraint that prevented it in the early days?

Best wishes 

Eric  

[Graham R]

Campbell Cornwell’s book on the class (published by the Caledonian Railway Association) states that “the springs were underhung for ease of access”. He does not elaborate on why that was so, but compared to the later tender design with springs above the axleboxes  fitting under the tender tank framing, perhaps they were easier to remove. The Stroudley-style tender had oil axleboxes from the outset, not grease.

 

regards

Graham

[Jeremy Cumberland]

On 12/04/2023 at 20:01, burgundy said:

Mounting the springs between the axlebox and the footplate is the obvious better solution but was there a technical constraint that prevented it in the early days?

Essentially, no. Both Stirling (GNR) and Ramsbottom (LNWR) placed springs above the axlebox and outside the frames at the same time that Craven (LBSC) was building narrow tenders with springs above the frames. Stroudley appears to have followed Craven, but even Craven occasionally placed springs outside the frames, for example the trailing wheels of LBSC 0-4-2T No. 214 / 369. Some of Craven's earlier tank locos placed trailing wheel springs above the footplate right in the cab doorway, which must have been very inconvenient.