Fueling points

[The Ghost of IKB]

After a house move that has left me without a dedicated railway room, i've decided to build a depot layout, so i can at least shuffle a few locos about while i plan to invade the loft when funds allow.

But i would appreciate some info from those with more knowledge than me about fueling points.

Im unsure of how thr track was laid next to disel refueling equipment. Was it ballasted or was there some kind of drainage for the inevitable spills?

And how long would it take to fill up a typical loco? 

Thanks for any answers!

[Rivercider]

Fuelling points come in many different forms, and also varied over the years.

There would be a big difference between an early diesel fuelling point provided

in an active steam shed compared to a fuelling point in a purpose built diesel depot.

Most, but not all, fuelling points include a concrete apron, though some were ballasted,

 

A search on Flickr will bring up examples,

 

cheers  

 

[Davexoc]

Ranelagh Bridge was an outdoor concrete apron variety, whereas Old Oak Common was a three line through shed that could take 6 locos at a time.

Southall was a semi-open through shed catering for several DMUs at a time. But if you go more modern, look at the current set-up at Tees Yard (you can't really call it Thornaby any more...), it looks like you could move it somewhere else in a matter of days....

 

As for how long it takes to fuel, it depends much on whether it is a quick splash, or a fill from almost empty. If you're looking at 900 gallons in the dead of a hard winter, almost an hour, as the fuel starts to freeze....

[Ken.W]

Normal practice would be to have a concrete apron at the fuel point.

Also, when planning the positioning of it, note it was standard practice to fuel locos on arrival onto the depot, not prior to departure.

The number of depot layouts I've seen doing this the wrong way round! You don't want your train delayed while the loco's in a queue to be fueled 

[Rivercider]

Barton Hill in Bristol had two very early steam sheds. Later they both became part

of Barton Hill carriage and wagon shops. In the 1990s sectorisation Barton Hill

became a RES depot, so new loco fuelling and maintenance facilities were provided.

 

47786 Roy Castle at Barton Hill 7/4/01

Barton Hill fuel point looking south 47725 10/3/2001

 

cheers

 

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

13 hours ago, Davexoc said:

As for how long it takes to fuel, it depends much on whether it is a quick splash, or a fill from almost empty. If you're looking at 900 gallons in the dead of a hard winter, almost an hour, as the fuel starts to freeze....

I take it you don't have to stand there continuously holding a trigger on the nozzle like when putting petrol in the car.

So one bloke can fuel as many locos at the same time as the layout allows.  Is that a job normally done by a shed worker or by train crew?

Would other minor tasks be done whilst fueling - cleaning windscreen, for example?

 

They presumably also have to have precautions against pilferage - management keeping an eye on it to make nobody drives his car up to it, that sort of thing, accounting paperwork (to reconcile delivery of n thousand gallons to loco x took y gallons etc) , and these days, billing to TOCs?  So an office in a hut or portacabin (like a weighbridge in days of old)?

[Chris Turnbull]

Here's a couple of photos of the fuelling point at Ipswich.

 

 

Taken on 22nd Mrch 2022 it was probabaly OOU by this time.

 

 

On 11th July 2015 the fueling point is being well-used.

 

Chris Turnbull

 

 

[Ken.W]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I take it you don't have to stand there continuously holding a trigger on the nozzle like when putting petrol in the car.

So one bloke can fuel as many locos at the same time as the layout allows.  Is that a job normally done by a shed worker or by train crew?

Would other minor tasks be done whilst fueling - cleaning windscreen, for example?

 

They presumably also have to have precautions against pilferage - management keeping an eye on it to make nobody drives his car up to it, that sort of thing, accounting paperwork (to reconcile delivery of n thousand gallons to loco x took y gallons etc) , and these days, billing to TOCs?  So an office in a hut or portacabin (like a weighbridge in days of old)?

 

The fuel pipes for locos are much larger diameter with a screw on connection.

Zooming in on the top photo above, what looks like it could be a fuel hose can be seen laying on the ground - the large diameter one just in front of the green cabinet under the far end of canopy.

Fuel pipes for DMUs were smaller with car filling style nozzles, the trigger of which can be latched open, but still too large and fast for a road vehicle.

 

Fuelling was done by a member of shed staff. What else was done their would depend on facilities at the the depot.

The Gateshead fuel point had a two road 'daily shed' with a third road alongside, so could handle three locos at a time.

As well as fuel, coolant, boiler water, sand, and screen wash would be topped up and the basic 'fuel point exam' done. 'A' exams were also done here if due - anything higher went to the main shed to be done.

 

Inside the daily shed was a small mess room for the fuel point staff (2 fitters and a labourer per shift) and loco crew allocated there - the crew arriving with the loco would simply stable it on the fuel point, or queued outside and the rest was left to the shed crews. At Gateshead we had one crew on the daily shed and two on the main shed per shift, and the regular drivers on these turns were 'green card' men although they were also covered by spare men as required.

 

As for accountancy / anti-pilfering, this was simply the fueller recording the fuel taken by each loco, and in any case, BR used 'red' diesel. Besides, the access to most fuel points, you wouldn't want to take your car anywhere near even if you could get the fuel in

[Rugd1022]

Ranelagh Bridge as mentioned by DavexOC...

 

 

 

[woodenhead]

How hard must it have been to get a pre-tops image of Ranelagh Bridge and only have class 47s in the image!!

 

No Hydraulics which you would believe would be the main traction at this time

[Morello Cherry]

10 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Barton Hill in Bristol had two very early steam sheds. Later they both became part

of Barton Hill carriage and wagon shops. In the 1990s sectorisation Barton Hill

became a RES depot, so new loco fuelling and maintenance facilities were provided.

 

47786 Roy Castle at Barton Hill 7/4/01

Barton Hill fuel point looking south 47725 10/3/2001

 

cheers

 

 

 

 

How does that compare to the fuel point at Bath Road? Was that a much larger affair?

[Rivercider]

13 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

How does that compare to the fuel point at Bath Road? Was that a much larger affair?

The fuelling point at Bath Road was in a three road shed known (like Gateshead) as the 'Daily Shed'

The Daily Shed at Bath Road is in the centre of this view taken in January 1982.

47239 had recently arrived from Swindon hauling 37247 and 47295, 15/1/82

 

 

 

[PerthBox]

Here's Perth fuel road. It dates from October 1969 but the equipment has been renewed a few times since then.

 

 

Here's a picture by John Cumming of three(!) class 50s in the fuel road:

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

11 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I take it you don't have to stand there continuously holding a trigger on the nozzle like when putting petrol in the car.

 

 

Forecourt pumps have modified nozzles (at least the did in the 90s when I last noticed this). If you look at the bottom of the loop on the trigger handle, you should find a hole. There should be a pin through there so you can flick a latch at the bottom of the trigger (which they don't remove) & it stays pumping while unattended. When the pump clicks to stop, the latch is thrown off this pin.

Public filling stations usually remove the pin. I don't really know why because the pump stops itself anyway.

[rob D2]

Were locos “ hot “ refuelled in the BR era ? IE left running whilst refuelled ?

[rob D2]

On 13/04/2023 at 06:38, Rivercider said:

Barton Hill in Bristol had two very early steam sheds. Later they both became part

of Barton Hill carriage and wagon shops. In the 1990s sectorisation Barton Hill

became a RES depot, so new loco fuelling and maintenance facilities were provided.

 

47786 Roy Castle at Barton Hill 7/4/01

Barton Hill fuel point looking south 47725 10/3/2001

 

cheers

 

 

 

That cantilever light standard in the first picture looks rather over engineered !

[Davexoc]

14 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Were locos “ hot “ refuelled in the BR era ? IE left running whilst refuelled ?

 

Shut down for a fuel point exam, as you can't get an oil level on a running engine. Coolant would be topped to overflowing, oil if required, washers topped and sandboxes if fitted. During colder months the air compressor anti-freeze reservoirs would be topped with methylated spirit (the clear stuff), and importantly the various reservoirs drained of air and water. The engine bed tank should also be drained, which will give an indication of what might be leaking up top....

A quick look around for condition of brake blocks, slack adjusters, obstacle deflectors, shifted tyres and check the driver's fault report book.

[Classsix T]

On 14/04/2023 at 20:34, Davexoc said:

 

Shut down for a fuel point exam, as you can't get an oil level on a running engine. Coolant would be topped to overflowing, oil if required, washers topped and sandboxes if fitted. During colder months the air compressor anti-freeze reservoirs would be topped with methylated spirit (the clear stuff), and importantly the various reservoirs drained of air and water. The engine bed tank should also be drained, which will give an indication of what might be leaking up top....

A quick look around for condition of brake blocks, slack adjusters, obstacle deflectors, shifted tyres and check the driver's fault report book.

It's been a while since I was knowledgeable about such matters Dave, that's akin to an 'A' exam or just a standard pre-operating check?

 

C6T.

[SED Freightman]

Pretty much all fuelling points constructed by BR were equipped with fuelling aprons (usually concrete) and were equipped with drainage systems with oil interceptors and waste oil storage.  Come privatisation and although the bigger operators that inherited ex BR depots generally continued to construct / maintain fuelling aprons some of the new entrants adopted what could be  termed a more cowboy approach to environmental protection. This resulted in such things as the use of portable drip trays, and relatively cheap permanent drip tray arrangements of varying suitability, with the use of such items depending to some extent on the location and perceived risk of prosecution for oil pollution.

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Classsix T said:

It's been a while since I was knowledgeable about such matters Dave, that's akin to an 'A' exam or just a standard pre-operating check?

 

C6T.

On the WR 'Fuel Point Inspection' was exactly that - an insoection and check of various things which could results in 'Work Arising' (e.g renewing brake blocks, re-attaching ligeguards that had become loose and so on.   Usually work arising would be carried out in the Servicing Shed/at a Fuel Point but sometimes if workload was heavy a loco/unit would got to a maintenance shed for teh work to be done.

 

A Exams - the most basic level of exam - could be, and were, done in Servicing Sheds and in some cases at Fuel Points but particularluy in the latter case, and again deending on time availanble the exan m would be carried out in the maintemncce shed - if there was one.

 

On teh Western Fuel Points and Servicing s Sheds were two very different animals.  With only a few exceptions, Fuel points had no overall cover but simplya shelter between two roads either of which could be used for fuelling and Inspection and as g far as I know all of them were originally solely to deal with DMUs although soem were used by diesel shunters.  The.only exception I know very much about was at Westbury where two sheds covered the fuel point sited so that each covered the power car of a 3 car set with an open space between them and ths was secifically to allow Exams t be carried out in addition to Furel Point Inspections.

 

Some of teh WR DMY U Fuel Points were not equipped to undertake Exans which caused b various problems with reliability and depot workload in South wales.

 

Servicing Sheds were privided at depots dealing with locos (s0metines called a 'dailt shed' and whiel there was some variation in design and internal layout officially they could undertake SA exams at most depots I know anything about.  B, and higher, Exams couldn't normally be handled in Servicing Sheds and definitely couldn't be done at Fuel Points.  Most WR DMU fuel points tended to be in formetr carriage sidings although there were some exceptions such as Southalll where the two fuelling roads were immediately outside the two roads of the former steam shed which were converted for DMU maintenance.

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

Pretty much all fuelling points constructed by BR were equipped with fuelling aprons (usually concrete) and were equipped with drainage systems with oil interceptors and waste oil storage.  Come privatisation and although the bigger operators that inherited ex BR depots generally continued to construct / maintain fuelling aprons some of the new entrants adopted what could be  termed a more cowboy approach to environmental protection. This resulted in such things as the use of portable drip trays, and relatively cheap permanent drip tray arrangements of varying suitability, with the use of such items depending to some extent on the location and perceived risk of prosecution for oil pollution.

 I felt quite chuffed when a chap pointed to his mate "He's even modelled the interceptor"

 

Waste oil went straight into the heating oil tank. A practice I understand happened at some ER sheds.

[SED Freightman]

I forgot to mention that in addion to the fuelling areas being equipped with concrete aprons, BR generally provided something similar on sidings where tank cars were discharged into depot storage tanks.  In more recent times since oil deliveries have switched to road transport, the road tanker discharge  area may also be provided with an unloading pad with dedicated drainage equipped with oil interceptors.

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

Pretty much all fuelling points constructed by BR were equipped with fuelling aprons (usually concrete) and were equipped with drainage systems with oil interceptors and waste oil storage.

Would this have been true in the very early days of diesels - the pioneer shunters and the LMS twins etc?  I doubt if spillage and contamination risks were even considered when sheds were predominantly steam and the associated pollution was accepted as a fact of life.

[The Stationmaster]

38 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Would this have been true in the very early days of diesels - the pioneer shunters and the LMS twins etc?  I doubt if spillage and contamination risks were even considered when sheds were predominantly steam and the associated pollution was accepted as a fact of life.

And a lot later than that.  We din't have interceptors at Westbury well into the 1970s and something was only done then because the local authority threatened to prosecute BR .

[SED Freightman]

52 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Would this have been true in the very early days of diesels - the pioneer shunters and the LMS twins etc?  I doubt if spillage and contamination risks were even considered when sheds were predominantly steam and the associated pollution was accepted as a fact of life.

In the early days of diesel operation it is unlikly that any precautions against spillage were taken particularly at old steam sheds where as you suggest heavy ground contamination would already have been present.  Fuelling aprons and oil interception were perhaps only found at new or rebuilt depots to begin with, however an increasing awarness of environmental issues and particularly the risk of prosecution, as mentioned by The Stationmaster at Westbury, resulted in new or upgraded facilities being provided in later years.