Signals - Present-Day Semaphore, Lights and Repeaters

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

That's about it. There was a blanking plate in place of the green aspect of the semaphore arm.

How does the signal show with just the semaphore in the off position?

There will be no light showing at all.

[Rugd1022]

11 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

A few of my old friends coming out of the woodwork here!

Correct about the date, I was involved in testing those.

 

Provided during the abolition of Banbury Junction SB (1976 IIRC). The signal was at the end of the Down Goods which prior to 1969 used to go through to Banbury Ironstone box. The underbridge is the Oxford Canal, the Good line span was removed after the Ironstone box closed.

 

Both replaced on my projects before the SSI was done, can't remember the exact ones but the bracket was a signal renewal as a colour light cantilever c1980. I think the Down Starter with the lower colour light distant for the first Saltley signal was replacd by a three aspect diring a remodelling job in the mid 1970s.

I did the plan for closure of the Stratford end of the through route following the derailment at Winchcombe (1976?) which made those signals redundant. I think we did the work at the same time as the conversion from ATC to BR AWS. The ATC ramp for the lower distant by the road bridge in the second picture was the last operational one to be removed from BR lines. 

 

The Winchcombe derailment was 25/8/76, one of the lads who is part of the group who owns 47 105 down there thinks it was Peak hauled but I read somewhere that it was a pair of 20s, I wonder if we'll ever find out. I've always thought it such a pity the route was severed just south of Stratford but it has left us with a wonderful section of preserved railway nonetheless. S-upon-A would make a very nice layout in any scale too. Along with a school mate and his dad, I made several visits to the line between '73 and '76 when it was still open for diversionary stuff and a few more after the closure south of Stratford with most of the infrastructure still in situ, spending many an hour just wandering around the track at Broadway and Toddington.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

How does the signal show with just the semaphore in the off position?

There will be no light showing at all.

Exactly so.  When te signal is at danger the semaphore performs in exactly the same way as any other sema[hore stop signal at danger.  At that condition theh colour light is not illuminated.

 

When teh semaphore is 'off' there is no need for it to show any light because the colour light illuminates and acts as as distant for the colour light stop signal to which it applies.  So a Driver is receiving the relevant proceed aspect from thecolot r light although the semaphore arm remains visible (in daylight). 

 

This arranrgement was used in two situations.  At one time it was a requirement at teh transition frm semaphore signalling to a colour light signalled area although that was often ignored during variois stages of commissioning schemes from teh early 1960s onwards.

 

The other use was when a two aspect (R/G) colour light signal was used as an Intermediate Block Home Signal and if its distant was in a location where it might be 'read through' from semaphore signals, or where braking distance was needed, its Distant was mounted below a semaphore stop signal.  An excellent example of this was Challow's Up Advanced Starting Signals which from April 1954 were provided with two aspect (Y/G) 'lower arm' colour light distants for the Up IB Homes which had replaced Circourt 'break section' signal box.  Alas I couldn't find a suitable place to get to be able to photo the Asdvanced Starters.  But I did get a photo of the Up IB Homes at Circourt which was also interesting in that it shows the early version of what became Reading's standard double track bracket structure for colour light signals

[Pacific231G]

On 15/06/2023 at 21:30, Michael Hodgson said:

I can't remember clearly but I thought Leighton Buzzard used RETB though that requires special equipment on board each loco, so it was probably something rather more primitive - after all one of their stations is called Stonehenge Works!  But I'm pretty sure they used some form of radio for control of movements.

 

 

 

 

Hello Michael

I made a video with and about the LBNGR in about 2000 and made a point of filming the whole token sequence at least twice.

The system in use at that time was definitely Key Token and other communication was by telephone, there were no radios on board the trains. They went over to a radio based system a few years after that but, as the line gets a lot of visiting locos, I'm pretty sure it's not RETB but just a system with a controller at Pages Park in radio contact with every train* .

These images are from screen grabs of my DV-SD  video so not great quality.

The key token system had two token machines in a locked cabinet at Leedon loop that also contained a couple of telephones to report to control.

 

Alf Fisher (who narrated my video) taking a token at Leedon Loop for the run to Stonehenge Works

 

There was a machine in a cabinet at the end of the platform at Stoneghenge but I'm not sure where the token machine  was at Page's Park.

A different train arriving at Stonehenge where the token machine cabinet is open

During the period of about a year over which I filmed the railway the token operation at Leedon Loop seemed to be entirely driver operated (they had used a signaller in the past) but I think, on busy days at least, that station staff at the two termini (the chap in the sun hat and Hi Viz in this image) would handle the actual token operation there.

 

The railway had two token sections (red and blue) but, for their evening galas, they ran a passenger train non-stop the length of the line so there must have been a procedure for operating it as a single section without using the token machines (or possibly by issuing the driver with a token for both sections with one conveyed by car) . 

The system of key token machines and fixed telephones required maintenance by S&T (seen here working on the Leedon Loop cabinet) with phone and telegraph lines the whole length of the line and I suspect that the cabinet at Leedon Loop was somewhat vulnerable to vandalism etc.

 

*The Ruislip Lido Railway also uses a radio based control system with drivers getting verbal permission from the controller for each movement. It was interestin to see this in effect during their recent gala when far more trains than usual were operating.  At quieter times though, when only two trains are in service, they use a simple staff system  with two sections and drivers swapping staffs at a single passing loop. Clearly, this requires every "up" train to be balanced by a "down" train so I'm not sure how they manage the first train of the day- possibly by sending it down the line as ECS with just the "far end" staff before commencing passenger operations. 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Pacific231G
addition of images

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

The Winchcombe derailment was 25/8/76, one of the lads who is part of the group who owns 47 105 down there thinks it was Peak hauled but I read somewhere that it was a pair of 20s,

It was reported on another forum that it was 45076, but not seen any confirmation.

[SM42]

Some from Worcester 

 

Shrub Hill's SH8 something ( I forget but maybe SH82 ) with fixed distant below at Wyldes Lanes Jn

 

 

In this one if you look carefully on the right you can see the Shunt Limit, again at Wyldes Lane.

 

 

And finally the signal out of the turnback siding at Henwick, (Box just visible in the background)

 

 

All taken in the last 3 weeks or so

 

Andy

Edited June 18, 2023 by SM42

[St. Simon]

On 14/05/2023 at 13:36, The Stationmaster said:

What do you do while waiting for the pub to open for your OFs get-together?  Well if you know what you're looking for and know where it is in railway terms you could try to find your way to a footbridge that you know is near it - so I did.

And here it is in all its 21st century  glory (2017 to be precise) - a standard SR disc elevated on a lattice post for a setting back movement off the Ascot line towards Wokingham station but alas insufficient magnification on the camera for the best view .  But I didn't worry about that as I have earlier photos of it taken from a passing trains so all I really wanted to do was find out if it was still there.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Mike,

 

Still there, although not for much longer as it's replacement (BEF2267) has been installed and bagged awaitng commissioning:

 

 

I went down on Friday morning to make sure I got it before it went!

 

Simon

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by St. Simon

[Rugd1022]

 

Veering off topic again slightly but I thought it worth posting this one - the now replaced gantry at Aynho... note the red BR sticker someone has added to the post...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

55 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

 

Hi Mike,

 

Still there, although not for much longer as it's replacement (BEF2267) has been installed and bagged awaitng commissioning:

 

 

I went down on Friday morning to make sure I got it before it went!

 

Simon

 

Sad to see it go Simon - it must be a pretty near, if not exactly, unique survivor on the national network.  I wonder if any preservationists will go for it?   But Wokingham does still have another probably unique survivor (so far) in the shape of the railbuilt footbridge - complete with rail curved in its upright state, i.e. the hard way to curve it.

[beast66606]

Modern colour light (3-aspect), the cut off remains of the balanced bracket it replaced can be seen behind it (through the lower part of the post).

 

Lowestoft
17/06/2023 (Saturday)
YL8414, platform 3 starter at Lowestoft, straight post, 3-aspect, LED head, into use 02/02/2020 when Colchester PSB assumed control of the area.

[russ p]

On 14/05/2023 at 22:24, Coach bogie said:

Northallerton. Down Main reverse working signal Y476 with theatre route and caution light .Old style builds rather than LED. Replacement bracket cause by platform extension, though with a slight droop.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

The sub on this signal was for the Redmire stone train to propel towards the limit of shunt indicator  to clear the signal at the North end of the station and proceed to Tees Yard 

[phil_sutters]

Hampden Park (Eastbourne) station's trio of signals.

[phil_sutters]

A few from a trip to Battle Abbey yesterday. (Amended version of caption on Hastings' down signal photo)

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by phil_sutters

[uax6]

7 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

A few from a trip to Battle Abbey yesterday

 

 

 

 

 

The blue plates with 8005/6/7/10 on them are NOT signal numbers, they are the short codes for the long defunct Cab Secure Radio system... For some reason NR have not removed any of these plates, even though the system was replaced by (the very much inferior, cheaper and nastier) GSM-R system back in 2012ish... I'm surprised that ASLEF haven't been kicking up a stink about it! 

 

Andy G

[St. Simon]

8 minutes ago, uax6 said:

 

The blue plates with 8005/6/7/10 on them are NOT signal numbers, they are the short codes for the long defunct Cab Secure Radio system... For some reason NR have not removed any of these plates, even though the system was replaced by (the very much inferior, cheaper and nastier) GSM-R system back in 2012ish... I'm surprised that ASLEF haven't been kicking up a stink about it! 

 

Andy G

 

Hi,

 

The plates are still used for GSM-R, the standard ones have an extra symbol, but they use the same codes.

 

Simon

[Mike_Walker]

You are the first person I've come across who considers GSM-R as "very much inferior, cheaper and nastier" than CSR.  The former is a far more flexible system capable of being used for a lot more than simple voice communications.  CSR was an analogue trip up a cul-de-sac, GSM-R is a modern digital  system.

[uax6]

Just now, St. Simon said:

 

Hi,

 

The plates are still used for GSM-R, the standard ones have an extra symbol, but they use the same codes.

 

Simon

 

Interestingly we are not aware that they are used for GSM-R up here. But then again, no-one ever tells the Bobbies anything about the equipment they have to use, just in case we end up knowing something.....

 

Andy G

[uax6]

10 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

You are the first person I've come across who considers GSM-R as "very much inferior, cheaper and nastier" than CSR.  The former is a far more flexible system capable of being used for a lot more than simple voice communications.  CSR was an analogue trip up a cul-de-sac, GSM-R is a modern digital  system.

 

And there in lies part of the problem....

 

From a Bobbies point of view, we want to be able to call the driver when we need to. 

Now with CSR I could call any train that was in the system at any time, and speak to the driver. But with GSM-R I can only call trains that are in my area, and that means as soon as the train passes my last signal I can no longer call them. Less than Ideal.

 

The consoles are very clunky to use, with what can only be described as the worlds poorest design of press to talk handset (which has the button on the side, as opposed to the back of the handset (where your thumb naturally falls) and so are really uncomfortable to use. 

 

The 'extras' may well be useful for powerboxes, but in proper boxes they are superfluous, and frankly the reliability of the system is poor. I have had a shift where the power supply has failed, and had to hold bits of paper up to drivers with CALL SPT on them as I needed to caution.. I never had that with CSR!

 

Andy G

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by uax6

[phil_sutters]

2 hours ago, uax6 said:

 

The blue plates with 8005/6/7/10 on them are NOT signal numbers, they are the short codes for the long defunct Cab Secure Radio system... For some reason NR have not removed any of these plates, even though the system was replaced by (the very much inferior, cheaper and nastier) GSM-R system back in 2012ish... I'm surprised that ASLEF haven't been kicking up a stink about it! 

 

Andy G

Well that initiated a bit of an exchange. Maybe some were able to get a different perspective on the equipment in question. Not a layman like myself though!

[ianathompson]

18 hours ago, uax6 said:

I have had a shift where the power supply has failed, and had to hold bits of paper up to drivers with CALL SPT on them as I needed to caution.. I never had that with CSR!

 

In my experience of working your box, and others, you would be damned lucky to get a driver out of a cab to use the SPT!

This was acceptable before CSR came in but once it was in....!

 

By the time that I retired the managaement were trying to tell me that you could not stop a train at your box by using a red flag.

That was how we communicated, generally, before CSR came in.

 

There was, of course, no record of such a conversation, which could work both ways.

 

Ian T

[Mike_Walker]

20 hours ago, uax6 said:

I have had a shift where the power supply has failed, and had to hold bits of paper up to drivers with CALL SPT on them as I needed to caution.. I never had that with CSR!

 

But surely if the power supply failed you would have lost CSR too as it need that new-fangled electricky.

[ianathompson]

1 hour ago, Mike_Walker said:

But surely if the power supply failed you would have lost CSR too as it need that new-fangled electricky.

 

The railways did not rely on one source of electricity so it was unusual to have a complete failure.

 

I had one driver arrive on a winter's evening to inform me that the station lights were out.

As they were next to the box it was fairly obvious that I knew this.

(Edit: The avatar photo shows this quite clearly when enlarged as it was taken in the box concerned)

 

The driver was a well known local idiot, however.

No names, no pack drill. Uax6 can more than likley guess who it was.

 

His CSR was working okay because he told me that he would walk the length of the train to make sure that it was safe to move it.

Presumably he  thought that a limbo dancer had slipped through the gap between the train and the platform.

He then used the CSR to balme Railtrack? Network Rail? for the lights being out. 

It obviously escaped his notice that the entire town was in blackness!

 

In any case all electrically powered equipment had a back up battery supply.

If power was cut at a level crossing, for instance, you acknowledged the alarm, noted the time and told Control.

From memory they were good for eight hours before some one needed to attend.

 

I also seem to remember that the signals could, if necessary, be switched to work off the OHL in emergency, although I might be going senile and have made this up!

 

Ian T

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by ianathompson
additional info

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

But surely if the power supply failed you would have lost CSR too as it need that new-fangled electricky.

That entirely on what powered a 'phone.  so for example when I was doing CSR training I knew exactly what teh system was capable.  and it might that I could sit at my office desk and calla Driver if I happened to know the number of te CSR in teh canb he was driving from - or he could call me because he knwe my office number.  Same with a signalbox p provided it had an ETD 'phone then it could make calls onto the CSR network, and vice versa.    So in that situation the shore end of CSR was independent of local power supplies except those in telephone exchanges.  only problem was knowing the CSR number for teh required driving cab.p

 

I would presume that GSM-R might also be independent if calls can be made from an ETD 'phone.  But it f it requires its own shore station in a signal box then it will presumably need a power supply locally?  I also find it strange that contact is lost ifa train passes the most advanced sto signal controll;ed bya signal box - is that actually the case because if it is so there is something very wrong in the design of the system?

 

Having spent the last five years of my big railway life were we ere promised GSM-R would be working within a yeear (that is is the 1990s) it would have had advantages for us because it would allegedlyt be capable of sending messages to a printer in teh Driver's cab.  And indeed oart of or Rule Book was framed around the princuple that aany Instruction to pass a signal at danger would be delivered in a printed message - that never happened.  But it always struck me as one of the best features of the intended system.

[uax6]

A reply was typed, but I've thought better of it, there might be someone reading this......

 

Andy G

 

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by uax6

[uax6]

6 hours ago, ianathompson said:

 

In my experience of working your box, and others, you would be damned lucky to get a driver out of a cab to use the SPT!

This was acceptable before CSR came in but once it was in....!

 

By the time that I retired the managaement were trying to tell me that you could not stop a train at your box by using a red flag.

That was how we communicated, generally, before CSR came in.

 

There was, of course, no record of such a conversation, which could work both ways.

 

Ian T

I was quite surprised when they did too! Although one of the drivers actually thought a bit and used his staff mobile to call the box internal number, so enabling him to stay sat in the cab!

 

Andy G