Large express services originating from obscure locations

[18B]

Hi, 

 

Amongst the many trains BR ran there were also some seemingly strange ones such the 

 

the 1V40 07:33 Rose Grove to Paignton in 1992. 

 

The question is why were trains such as these started from Rose Grove? 

[hexagon789]

18 minutes ago, 18B said:

Hi, 

 

Amongst the many trains BR ran there were also some seemingly strange ones such the 

 

the 1V40 07:33 Rose Grove to Paignton in 1992. 

 

The question is why were trains such as these started from Rose Grove? 

Use of rolling stock for long-distance services in marginal time was part of a BR strategy to 'sweat' assets.

 

Lots of services started this way.

 

You had Edinburgh-London HSTs started back from Glasgow, they came off depot and would work in place of a push-pull set to Glasgow then return as a through service to London; giving higher quality accommodation to commuters, adding extra mileage to a set that would otherwise be stood on depot until time for it to take up its working from Edinburgh and freeing up a ScotRail push-pull set for other duties.

 

The Highland Chieftan began life in 1982 as a Perth commuter extension of an Edinburgh-London HST, started back from Inverness from 1984.

 

The Aberdeen-Penzance started back from Elgin for a period in the 1980s, working in place of a commuter turn into Aberdeen.

 

The Edinburgh-Plymouth service when it became an HST in 1982 was extended to Penzance, the shorter journey time with HST traction permitted the extension. In 1983 though, it was extended beyond Edinburgh both ways to start/end at Dundee. It ran in the standard pattern of Dundee-Edinburgh local services, calling at all bar two stations into Edinburgh as a morning commuter service (note though, the buffet was open from Dundee!) and the reverse working did the same, all stations evening run Edinburgh-Dundee.

 

In 1986, the Glasgow portion of the Paignton-Glasgow/Edinburgh rerouted into Glasgow Queen Street where it then reversed and provided a midafternoon service to Inverness (in an otherwise 5.5 hour gap in direct trains). The return working ran to Taunton IIRC.

 

Your Rose Grove example sounds like a sensible extension of a working to provide a higher quality and perhaps capacity, morning peak commuter service from Rose Grove which then happens to continue as a long-distance service to Paignton. It would presumably free up one or two local DMUs for other duties and also make use of a long-distance set that would otherwise just be waiting time for its working.

 

If you look through 1980s and some 1990s timetables, you'll see lots of examples of such marginal time extensions. It was in my opinion one of the most sensible (and indeed clever, in several ways) things BR did and one which you don't see anymore really.

Edited May 16, 2023 by hexagon789

[kevinlms]

10 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

 

If you look through 1980s and some 1990s timetables, you'll see lots of examples of such marginal time extensions. It was in my opinion one of the most sensible (and indeed clever, in several ways) things BR did and one which you don't see anymore really.

Probably came about by analysing computer data and seeing what extra usage could be made. It came to a halt with privatisation, because the owner didn't wish to lose control of 'their' train set!

[18B]

Rather like, an extension of the Derby to St P services being those from Burton on Trent to St P, Matlock and Barnsley.  

 

Alfreton for a while had a service I think to Portsmouth? in the early 1980s.

 

Many of your examples above are from much larger places than Rose Grove,

 

But Take on board all of what you're saying.  

[luckymucklebackit]

At one time the Royal Scot started at Ayr!

 

https://flic.kr/p/3duVKF

 

Jim

Edited May 16, 2023 by luckymucklebackit

[hexagon789]

51 minutes ago, luckymucklebackit said:

At one time the Royal Scot started at Ayr!

 

https://flic.kr/p/3duVKF

 

Jim

1984 until the early 1990s. Before electrification a 47/4, afterwards the 87 worked through.

 

It worked down to Ayr in service as well, as part of the standard pattern IIRC but advertised as Standard Class only - so I presume one could sit in a Mk3 Open First going to Ayr for no extra charge.

 

The return was advertised First & Std though.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, luckymucklebackit said:

At one time the Royal Scot started at Ayr!

..... I thought that was going to link to a picture of 'Duchess of Hamilton' at Butlins ! 🙄

[John-Miles]

There was at one time a Pembroke Dock to Paddington HST. Someone had to get out at Manorbier and open the gates and shut them once the train was through.

[Hal Nail]

Dont/didn't a couple of the Chiltern silver trains run through to Stourbridge rather than Birmingham?

Edited May 16, 2023 by Hal Nail

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, John-Miles said:

There was at one time a Pembroke Dock to Paddington HST. Someone had to get out at Manorbier and open the gates and shut them once the train was through.

 

I've got a picture of that!

 

Mike.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Not sure if Frome is a "remote location", but an early morning up Paddington service starts there. And likewise, a corresponding evening down service terminates there. The latter then forms a local service to Westbury (a 9-car IET providing plenty of capacity...), before working ECS to Stoke Gifford. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Peter Kazmierczak

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I assume a similar thing happens nowadays with the TfW Holyhead to Birmingham trains which originate and terminate at International, presumably to keep operating capacities a bit less cluttered at BNS.

 

Mike.

[Philou]

1 hour ago, John-Miles said:

There was at one time a Pembroke Dock to Paddington HST

 

There was also a Fishguard (Harbour?) to Paddington (v. early morning) service.

 

Philip

[Dava]

In the late 80s I traveled most days from Sheffield on a NESW Poole-Newcastle fronted by a class 45. Why Poole, did it connect with a Cherbourg ferry?

 

Dava

[Joseph_Pestell]

24 minutes ago, Dava said:

In the late 80s I traveled most days from Sheffield on a NESW Poole-Newcastle fronted by a class 45. Why Poole, did it connect with a Cherbourg ferry?

 

Dava

Lots of XC trains terminated at Poole. Originally, they would have terminated at Bournemouth West but had to be moved when BW closed. Terminating at Central would have messed up the Waterloo - Weymouth service too much.

One of my many "might-have-been"  layout plans is a reduced Bournemouth West in the early 1970s.

[hexagon789]

Virgin CrossCountry originally planned an hourly Dundee/Edinburgh to Poole service as part of the original Operation Princess plan. Insufficiently competed upgrade works saw the two-hourly Dundee services switched with the planned Darlington-Cardiffs and VXC services to Poole cut to 4 per day with the timetable which was actually introduced in September 2002.

[hexagon789]

5 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Probably came about by analysing computer data and seeing what extra usage could be made. It came to a halt with privatisation, because the owner didn't wish to lose control of 'their' train set!

Exactly, certainly a lot of the timetable changes had computer analysis done on them BR to estimate revenue vs costs, the 1984 NE-SW shake-up was one such timetable.

 

There are a few rough examples which still exist. The morning Oban-Glasgow still makes all stops along the North Clyde line, as it started out as a morning commuter service into Glasgow QS.

 

Until recently, some of ScotRail's HSTs did evening peak workings round the Fife Circle.

 

Things of that nature.

[keefer]

In GNER days, some cl.91+Mk4 KX-Edinburgh services worked through to Glasgow Central via Carstairs. 

As well as using a set that would otherwise be idle, it gave a service from the ECML stations to Glasgow without having to change trains (esp. for those who would prefer to go into Central).

EDIT: I don't think they stopped en route, so although slower than Edin-Queen Street they weren't as slow as the commuter service.

Edited May 16, 2023 by keefer

[The Johnster]

29 minutes ago, Philou said:

 

There was also a Fishguard (Harbour?) to Paddington (v. early morning) service.

 

Philip

Two of them daily to connect with the Rosslare ferries, so, yes, Harbour.  The daytime train was a Canton Castle turn for loco and crew, and at one time they were the only regular passenger workings over the Swansea District line.  They connected with ferry sailings from Fishguard at 03.40 and 1540, and were connections for passengers arriving from Rosslare in the up direction, off Fishguard about 02.30 IIRC  and into Cardiff 04.35, arrival Paddington 07.45 in steam days, 06.15 HST. 
 

To be fair I don’t think Fishguard counts as an ‘obscure location’.  It’s no seething Metropolis for sure (nor is Stranraer), and Harbour is a good distance from what town there is, about a mile that you wouldn’t want to walk in the rain, but it was a major investment for the GW, intended to be an Ocean Liner stop, and Paddington considered it an important destination, the route to major cities like Cork snd Dublin. 
 

The Southern’s ‘Withered Arm’ ACE through coaches are worth considering in this context as well; one would hardly consider Bude a large town even by North Cornish standards, nor Seaton or Exmouth.  Wasn’t there a CRE portion for Perranporth, another one little more than a village?

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, John-Miles said:

There was at one time a Pembroke Dock to Paddington HST. Someone had to get out at Manorbier and open the gates and shut them once the train was through.

Can't find my photos of that easily but here's the return HST waiting at Tenby:

 

 

In the 80s we had HSTs from Fishguard twice a day, from Haverfordwest (obscure enough for you?) or Milford-Paddington twice (one evening return*) and the Paddington-Pembroke Dock SO too.  The story went that the first run of the latter got too close to the platform so was started from Pembroke and BR taxi'd all the passengers who turned up, to the next station.

 

There was for many years, a York to Tenby Summer SO service, so some foreign 47s could turn up; I certainly saw one Scottish one with snowploughs.

 

11 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Two of them daily to connect with the Rosslare ferries, so, yes, Harbour.  The daytime train was a Canton Castle turn for loco and crew, and at one time they were the only regular passenger workings over the Swansea District line.  They connected with ferry sailings from Fishguard at 03.40 and 1540, and were connections for passengers arriving from Rosslare in the up direction, off Fishguard about 02.30 IIRC  and into Cardiff 04.35, arrival Paddington 07.45 in steam days, 06.15 HST. 
 

To be fair I don’t think Fishguard counts as an ‘obscure location’.  It’s no seething Metropolis for sure (nor is Stranraer), and Harbour is a good distance from what town there is, about a mile that you wouldn’t want to walk in the rain, but it was a major investment for the GW, intended to be an Ocean Liner stop, and Paddington considered it an important destination, the route to major cities like Cork snd Dublin. 

Fishguard (make that TWO miles from Harbour station) once had arguably the most "regular" train service in the UK: two trains departing at 0150 and at 1350, exactly 12 hours apart. In the mid-late 80s, the 1350 "The Hiberian" ran Fishguard to Paddington in 3hr 42mins, stopping at only Llanelli and Cardiff, which must have been at least an hour faster than possible by car.

 

*The evening Paddington to West Wales HST was non-stop to Bristol Parkway and held for some time, the record for Fastest Diesel Train Service in the world, averaging something like 115mph to Parkway.

[Wickham Green too]

28 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

... Paddington considered it an important destination, the route to major cities like Cork and Dublin. ...

Paddington most certainly didn't consider Fishguard to be a destination as they jointly owned the Fishguard & Rosslare Railways & Harbours Company ( with the G.S.&.W.R.) which got them to Waterford, well on the way to Cork.

[Ian Hargrave]

I remember catching the Rosslare -;Fishguard crossing in 1964  September and travelling to Cardiff on the Paddington train hauled by a Western d/h ,It avoided Swansea and ran non stop to Cardiff.I had an excellent view of Landore as we sailed past on the avoiding line.

[Ian Hargrave]

45 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Two of them daily to connect with the Rosslare ferries, so, yes, Harbour.  The daytime train was a Canton Castle turn for loco and crew, and at one time they were the only regular passenger workings over the Swansea District line.  They connected with ferry sailings from Fishguard at 03.40 and 1540, and were connections for passengers arriving from Rosslare in the up direction, off Fishguard about 02.30 IIRC  and into Cardiff 04.35, arrival Paddington 07.45 in steam days, 06.15 HST. 
 

To be fair I don’t think Fishguard counts as an ‘obscure location’.  It’s no seething Metropolis for sure (nor is Stranraer), and Harbour is a good distance from what town there is, about a mile that you wouldn’t want to walk in the rain, but it was a major investment for the GW, intended to be an Ocean Liner stop, and Paddington considered it an important destination, the route to major cities like Cork snd Dublin. 
 

The Southern’s ‘Withered Arm’ ACE through coaches are worth considering in this context as well; one would hardly consider Bude a large town even by North Cornish standards, nor Seaton or Exmouth.  Wasn’t there a CRE portion for Perranporth, another one little more than a village?

To call Fishguard an obscure location is to ignore the history that its citizens are reputed to have repulsed the last military invasion of these isles …by Napoleonic forces … in 1797..One fearsome lady by the name of Jemima Nicholas is reputed to have led the resistance with pitchfork in hand.. For further information,look to The Abergwaun hotel in Fishguard. My family is rooted in that part of the world…..so please don’t mess with me🤪 And don’t take me too seriously… 

[Ian Hargrave]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I assume a similar thing happens nowadays with the TfW Holyhead to Birmingham trains which originate and terminate at International, presumably to keep operating capacities a bit less cluttered at BNS.

 

Mike.

Birmingham Airport ? 

[Enterprisingwestern]

5 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Birmingham Airport ? 

 

You would think so, but very few people are still on the train from BNS to BI, not many at all use it as a feeder service, I use it Shrewsbury to BI and generally the people alighting at BI have been on the train from stations west.

 

Mike.