Stay-Alives with 3 wires

[Grande Maurice]

I recently purchased a 3-wire Stay-Alive from Road & Rails that is suited for use with Loksound 4 (and above) sound decoders - 'TRAIN-O-MATIC SPP SMART POWER PACK (STAY ALIVE) LOKSOUND COMPATIBLE'. It works but its reserves are pretty small (1.0-1.5 seconds with sound & lights on) and nowhere near as large a reserve as the Lais-DCC Stay-Alives i have wired to TTS sound decoders. The problem is I don't think I can add Lais-DCC models to Loksound decoders although I'm not sure if this is because it will damage the decoder or because they don't have a 3-wire set-up (which I understand would make them  temperamental when programming - unless i detach the Stay-Alive first). What I need is a bigger Stay-Alive with 3-wires or advice as to whether I can customise the Train-O-Matic Stay-Alive by adding another identical capacitor in series. Does anyone no of a suitable Stay-Alive or a way around this issue? 

 

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong section but I don't know how to find the different sections on this blog. If there is an electrical decoder section could someone guide me towards it - thx.

 

[Soul Survivor]

I use these stay alives with ESU Loksound V4 & V5 decoders, the run times I tend to get are between 2 to 3 secs (with sound and lights both on). A couple things I find help achieve this, I adjust the run time via CV 113 to suit the particular loco it is fitted to  - Default = 40 (0.66 sec) Max value = 255 (4.0sec) based on ESU’s quoted figures. I also leave the loco standing still, with track power on, for a couple minutes before use to allow the the capacitor to take up the initial charge.

Hopefully this may help. However, I do hope somebody with technical knowledge answers your question regarding adding another capacitor as I’ve often wondered whether this is feasible or not.

Peter

[Crosland]

Why do you need such long run times?

[peterm1]

6 hours ago, Crosland said:

Why do you need such long run times?

I use Lais stay alives, but limit the run time to 2 seconds. I too wonder why such long run times are needed.

 

[Grande Maurice]

Thanks for your comments. It's my first layout and my track laying and electrical knowledge has been sorely tested. I've sorted most gremlins out but there's on area of 'dead' track between 2 points that i cannot seem to resolve. Almost every loco I have slows or stops there, and as it's a shunting layout low speeds are required which makes the locos even more likely to stutter or stop. Locos fitted with the LaisDCC Stay-Alives work no problem but this new TRAIN-O-MATIC SPP STAY ALIVE doesn't seem to have enough juice to cover this poor section. Also, the loco in question is a Heljan class 15 (green late crest) and it's probably the most 'sensitive' & stuttering of all the locos i have. I've checked the copper strip contact behind all the wheels and they all look fine so not sure what the issue is. 

[melmerby]

IMHO You should sort out the track, which is clearly faulty and not try and hide it with "fixes" such as a stay alive.

 

Some details of the track and maybe a photo of the problem area would help others to guide you faultfinding.

Edited May 30, 2023 by melmerby

[Nigelcliffe]

Agree with Keith.    Fix the track problems on the layout, they won't be that difficult to solve (and less demanding than working out how to modify commercial electronics devices !). 

 

Stay alives are a way to finesse running, not to tape over faults in the layout.   They work best when applied to layouts and stock which is already running really well. 

 

 

- Nigel

[Grande Maurice]

I adjusted the run time via CV 113 to the maximum value 255 which improved it slightly but still only getting 1.0-1.5 secs. Disappointing really, as Train-O-Matic went to the trouble to produce an item perfect for Loksound, but (IMO) shouydl have added greater power reserves (4-5 secs to equal LaisDCC products). Do you know if it's OK to use a Lais DCC stay-alive with a Loksound v4? If so  I'll switch to that but add a switch so I can isolate the stay-alive when programming.

[melmerby]

Looks like you haven't got the message.

 

You should not be using Stay Alive units for multi-second running. It's there in case of problems, not to mask known faults.

 

[Albie the plumber]

On 30/05/2023 at 18:18, Grande Maurice said:

I adjusted the run time via CV 113 to the maximum value 255 which improved it slightly but still only getting 1.0-1.5 secs. Disappointing really, as Train-O-Matic went to the trouble to produce an item perfect for Loksound, but (IMO) shouydl have added greater power reserves (4-5 secs to equal LaisDCC products). Do you know if it's OK to use a Lais DCC stay-alive with a Loksound v4? If so  I'll switch to that but add a switch so I can isolate the stay-alive when programming.

I've used the Lais DCC 2 wire stay alive to an 08 shunter with no issue .

There were suggestions by some that programming the decoder was difficult unless one of the 2 wires was temporarily disconnected. 

I myself didn't experience that problem .

I assume the loco stalls over points ? 

If so , what sort of points are you using ? 

I.e . Are they live frog (electrofrog) or 'insulfrog points ? 

[Grande Maurice]

I partly agree with the comments about sorting out the track but i've tried my best and cannot work out the issue, so I have no other option. If i could hire an expert for a few hours to sort it out i would.

 

I need to buy Stay Alives (SA's) anyway as, having committed to DCC sound, I'm fed up with constant glitches or minor stalls causing the sound to switch off and start again. SA's are the only remedy for this & the reason they've taken off, as for many modellers it's hard to have perfect exhibition standard track. And i figure, if I'm buying SA's then I'll buy powerful ones. Also, my 'end to end' layout was designed for shunting and so i need reliable low speed running with no stutters or pauses.

 

And, to answer Albie's point, I've got 'live frogs' with 'juicers'. The problem track (in 2 areas) is the short piece of straight track (7 cms) that sits between 2 isolated points. 

[melmerby]

31 minutes ago, Grande Maurice said:

I partly agree with the comments about sorting out the track but i've tried my best and cannot work out the issue, so I have no other option. If i could hire an expert for a few hours to sort it out i would.

Yes you have. I made a suggestion at the end of May and you haven't responded to it..

 

You haven't shown us your track and explained how it's wired. It could be a simple problem easily fixed with the right know how.

A photo and some  description might make it obvious how to fix it and obviate spending money on extra capacitors etc.

 

e.g. are you using track joiners to carry current betwen pieces of track? etc.