BR(S) DEMU could they have been developed further.

[Titan]

I wonder what would have happened if EE had offered a horizontal traction version of the Napier Culverin. Would have given 600hp+ in something that could be underfloor mounted. Parts compatibility with a Deltic may or may not have been an advantage...

[Morello Cherry]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I think you have to get into the mindset of the times, when Exeter and beyond was very firmly “long distance main line”, not even secondary main line, it was THE main line to the west so far as Waterloo was concerned, which meant relatively infrequent (except on peak summer Saturdays), heavy, locomotive hauled trains, and probably that would have remained the answer, as it did elsewhere until the 1970s.

 

For such long trips with heavy loads, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to spread the power down the train, especially if it prevents there being a corridor (there were serious dining facilities on the WoE expresses), and doing so simply multiplies the number of bits that can go wrong, as well as disrupting the established separation of maintenance facilities between engines and carriages.

 

The paradigm shift to full MU operation is vastly simpler with pure electric traction (no refuelling, very little maintenance, nice and clean) and the sort of high-intensity operation where stock doesn’t go ECS to a carriage depot between turns is a lot simpler to implement on relatively short hauls, with simpler catering facilities. Quick turnaround at Waterloo was increasingly used for loco-hauled Bournemouth trains, but even some of those were going ECS to Clapham Junction between trips right up to 1967.

 

If you look at how DEMUs were used on long-distance services elsewhere, various ‘streamliners’ in the USA in the 1930s, in Europe in the 1930s and again as TEE got cracking after WW2, Blue Pullman in this country, they tended to be lightweight, limited-capacity trains, power cars at the outer ends (one end only in the USA), providing s premium service, which is what the GWR looked at them for in the 1930s (IIRC for the Cheltenham Flyer). Those trains didn’t cover the ‘bread and butter’ heavy express diagrams. As power density grew, the ‘power car at each extremity’ trains could get faster and longer, taking us to the big changes that HST permitted, when infrequent 12 and 13 car trains were replaced by more frequent, faster, shorter trains.

 

I’ve often thought that where a continuing real Southern Railway might have got to was a sort of half-way house for the big WoE trains, using a 1600hp loco at each end of a train consisting of high-quality TC sets, maybe three four-car sets, some being what I will call 4-TR having catering facilities, and TLVs (big luggage, parcels and mail demand on long distance trains then). Using TC/TR would have made splits for Ifracombe, Plymouth etc very easy, EMU-like in fact.

 

In short, my instinct is that they could have created a WoE DEMU, it would have been more of the same but a bit comfier, and hopefully with a bit more power per car (The Green Pullman?) but probably they wouldn’t have, because in the context of the 1950s it was the wrong travel market for that sort of train.

 

As a footnote: Back in the mid 70s, I went on a couple of excursion trains to the WoE that used 33,TC, wired buffet,TC, 33, and that was a really nippy and flexible combo, with a higher hp/car than was typical of WoE trains via either the GWR or SR routes at the time.

 

 

 

When I was thinking of long distance services I was thinking along the lines of the Weymouth services. The majority of the service provided by MU with the service supplemented by loco hauled trains (think Weymouth/Southampton boat trains).

 

OK. Thinking counter factual history. SR retains control of its lines.

 

SR designs a long/medium distance wide bodied 6L which can be used on Portsmouth-Bristol-Cardiff, and Brighton-Plymouth, the S&D and also forms the core of the WoE services, with Summer expresses supplemented by loco + coaches services (would there have been weight restrictions on what could work west of Exeter?)

 

Expanded 3D/H order to cover local services on S&D, Reading-Gatwick, WoE branches and North Devon and Cornwall.

 

Or taking your 33/TC idea further

 

SR electrifies to Exeter (ie the Bournemouth of WoE lines). Expanded TC and REP order. REP + 2 x TC to Exeter. 4 TC + 33 to Plymouth, 4 TC + 33 to Ilfracombe. Salisbury, Yeovil services etc in the hands of CIGs etc

 

33/0 all become 33/1by default and 33 + TC becomes standard diesel hauled format on everything other than short hauled diesel services (Brighton-Plymouth, Reading-Gatwick, Portsmouth-Cardiff, Bristol-Weymouth.

 

3H for use on the branches on the WoE and N.Devon and Cornwall.

 

I seem to recall reading that there was a service at one point that was very overpowered. Something like VEP (for Soton?) +  4TC + 33/1 (for Salisbury) or something like that which split at Basingstoke.

[Nearholmer]

45 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

And presumably diesel was even more expensive because all of it had to be shipped in :-)

It’s an interesting question. I’ve got a book about fuel policy in Ireland in the 1950s, but I can’t look in it because it’s stored away! I know oil was cheap in Ireland*, and I have a feeling that the republic had some kind of cheap oil deal with the US, but it’s also worth remembering how the situation during WW2 affected the psychology of things, because coal supply from Britain to the south was effectively cut-off, creating a really desperate situation, on top of a pre-existing dislike/fear of being overly reliant on Britain. It wasn’t until after the oil crises of the 1970s that the republic built a big coal-fired generating station. Until then the energy policy might be summarised as: hydro-electricity; peat; oil.

 

Clearly the situation as regards the north was different, but in a railway context the cost of fuel is never the only factor: if one diesel can do the job of two or three steamers, there are multiple other savings to set against fuel (and the higher capital cost).

 

*In fact, oil was cheap everywhere, because new sources were being opened-up even quicker than demand was growing. I was just looking at an 1861-2014 crude oil price graph, and what amazed me was that neither WW2 nor Suez really bumped prices up, the only temporary blip upwards was when everyone in the US bought a car at the end of WW2 and it took the drillers a year or two to catch up.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, Morello Cherry said:

OK. Thinking counter factual history. SR retains control of its lines.

I think a lot depends on the time horizon that you are thinking about.

 

A stake in the ground is given in a paper by C M Cock in 1947, where he says that they have a solid business case to eliminate steam east of the Portsmouth Line, but not yet west thereof, and in which he rather interestingly talks about building EDs for freight traffic because electrifying all the sidings would be too expensive and create too many risks, so the ‘tramway’ overhead probably wouldn’t have prospered. He talks about ‘diesel electric’ for branches where electrification can’t be justified, and other sources make clear that meant DEMUs for the passengers.

 

At that date, the three big diesels were under construction, and it wasn’t certain whether they’d be a success, oodles of Bulleid Pacifics were being churned out, Q1 were still new, and the Moguls were still in good form, so they had plenty of fairly modern steam locos available, and they were bashing out steel loco-hauled coaches at a good rate.

 

TBH, I don’t see a place for a DEMU in the scheme of things other than something like 2H/3H, to replace all the old 0-4-4T and PP sets on branches. The Hastings units would never have emerged, because the line was firmly in the electrification plans, and in the context of the times I can’t see the attraction of main-line DEMUs over locomotives for the non-electrified routes - I can’t see how it would have saved money. I honestly think the run-out would have been two (or maybe just one) classes of diesel loco gradually replacing the steamers on WoE services as and when the bean-counting said the moment was right, and maybe Bournemouth and Weymouth going exactly as they did under BR, but possibly a few years sooner, and maybe they could have got a return on electrifying to Salisbury, but I wouldn’t be sure of that given how thinly spread the population was in the area until recent years.  
 

The pace of dieselisation might have been at least partly dictated by the valve gear troubles of the Pacifics, with diesels being bought, rather than money being spent on the rebuilding programme. If so, we’d be looking at a c2250hp loco, ordered in batches from the mid-1950s, and possibly a smaller loco for less demanding work, maybe c1250hp.

 

Anyway, trying to solve somebody else’s problems from yesterday is always more fun than solving our own from today!

 

[frobisher]

5 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

Could they have designed a DEMU precursor using the CIG/BIG/TC/REP body work for Waterloo - Exeter and beyond.

 

Quite probably, BUT you'd have lost one of the driving vehicles completely to the necessary 3000+ HP of generator.

[Morello Cherry]

40 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I think a lot depends on the time horizon that you are thinking about.

 

A stake in the ground is given in a paper by C M Cock in 1947, where he says that they have a solid business case to eliminate steam east of the Portsmouth Line, but not yet west thereof, and in which he rather interestingly talks about building EDs for freight traffic because electrifying all the sidings would be too expensive and create too many risks, so the ‘tramway’ overhead probably wouldn’t have prospered. He talks about ‘diesel electric’ for branches where electrification can’t be justified, and other sources make clear that meant DEMUs for the passengers.

 

At that date, the three big diesels were under construction, and it wasn’t certain whether they’d be a success, oodles of Bulleid Pacifics were being churned out, Q1 were still new, and the Moguls were still in good form, so they had plenty of fairly modern steam locos available, and they were bashing out steel loco-hauled coaches at a good rate.

 

TBH, I don’t see a place for a DEMU in the scheme of things other than something like 2H/3H, to replace all the old 0-4-4T and PP sets on branches. The Hastings units would never have emerged, because the line was firmly in the electrification plans, and in the context of the times I can’t see the attraction of main-line DEMUs over locomotives for the non-electrified routes - I can’t see how it would have saved money. I honestly think the run-out would have been two (or maybe just one) classes of diesel loco gradually replacing the steamers on WoE services as and when the bean-counting said the moment was right, and maybe Bournemouth and Weymouth going exactly as they did under BR, but possibly a few years sooner, and maybe they could have got a return on electrifying to Salisbury, but I wouldn’t be sure of that given how thinly spread the population was in the area until recent years.  
 

The pace of dieselisation might have been at least partly dictated by the valve gear troubles of the Pacifics, with diesels being bought, rather than money being spent on the rebuilding programme. If so, we’d be looking at a c2250hp loco, ordered in batches from the mid-1950s, and possibly a smaller loco for less demanding work, maybe c1250hp.

 

Anyway, trying to solve somebody else’s problems from yesterday is always more fun than solving our own from today!

 

 

A diesel version of the 71 and 73?

 

To pursue another counter factual - the 210 becomes of the DEMU of choice on the SR in the 1980s replacing the aging 3H/3D. No need for 166/165 on Gatwick-Reading, etc potential for a future development using the 319 body (pre-dating the 769?).

[Nearholmer]

34 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

A diesel version of the 71 and 73?

Something with innards roughly like a Class 44 and a Class 24 respectively …… it’s hard to conceive now how big, heavy, and sluggish a mid-50s diesel loco capable of taking on express passenger work was! And, with power available well under 200hp/car, that would be at steam timings, no really exciting accelerations.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Nearholmer

[hexagon789]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

And coal was always more costly in Ireland, because most of it had to be shipped in.

 

The Enterprise remained a classic heavy, loco-hauled train into the 1970s and beyond though, didn’t it? In fact, thinking about it, it still was when I was last over there, which must have been about five years ago now. Ah, but thinking about it, maybe with a DVT.

 

 

 

 

The Enterprise became railcars (to use the Irish term) after steam finished. NIR and CIE then independently switched to loco-haulage during the early 1970s.

 

New-build dedicated push-pull sets appeared from 1997 and remain in use today, though plans have just recently been drawn up for their replacement.

[johnofwessex]

5 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

And presumably diesel was even more expensive because all of it had to be shipped in :-)

 

 

Certainly in South Africa when David Wardale was looking at it, oil prices were the same across the country.  While there is some variation, Petrol & Diesel prices dont change that much across the UK

[pete_mcfarlane]

On 27/06/2023 at 23:09, EddieK said:

The prototype refurbished unit was originally unit 1111. As I recall, it could multiple with EMUs, some SR locos and also the mess room kettle.....

I think the plan was for refurbished 3H(M) units to work Victoria - Uckfield portions after the East Grinstead line was electrified. The DEMU would work in multiple with the 4-VEP working to EG and they'd split or join at Oxted. 

 

1111 was wired up so that it could work with DEMUs, but could be quickly altered to work in multiple with EMUs.

 

The plan was to refurbish the remaining DEMUs to this standard, and then swap all of them over to the EMU compatible mode in a short period of time. None of this happened, presumably because of money, and 1111 ended up being banished to the Marshlink line with other oddball DEMUs. 

 

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Something with innards roughly like a Class 44 and a Class 24 respectively …… it’s hard to conceive now how big, heavy, and sluggish a mid-50s diesel loco capable of taking on express passenger work was! And, with power available well under 200hp/car, that would be at steam timings, no really exciting accelerations.

 

 

Hmm.  To use the Cardiff-Paddington service as an example, because I'm most familiar with it but the principles illustrated hold good elsewhere, the 1959 service had a fastest time of 3hours 10minutes non-stop after Newport, with class 7 power (Castles or Britannias).  Kings took over in 1960, with no accelleration, and the maximum load unassisted (Severn Tunnel Bottom to Badminton) was 14 bogies, 16 with assistance.  The Kings were replaced in 1962 with Hymeks, which were thrashed mercilessly and had difficulty timing the trains, understandably as they were considered replacements for Halls, not Castles, Brits, and Kings...

 

Type 4 power became available in late 1963, initially Westerns and then Brush Type 4s (Class 47).  The loads were now limited to 12 bogies.  There were still no timetable improvements, so one could say that the 2,500-2,700hp equated to 'not-quite-a-Castle/Brit; the AL series electrics and the ECML Deltics were showing that 3khp was needed to equal steam timings with steam loads.  Moves to reduce the timings were afoot, though, as 70mph turnouts appeared at Severn Tunnel Jc and Wooton Bassett off the Badminton cutoff, resulting in a 2hour 50minute timing for 1964, load limited now to 10 bogies and no assistance.  This allowed a reduction to 2hours and 40 minutes.

 

The introduction of mk2 stock in 1966 coincided with a reduction to 2 hours and 35 minutes and that of airconditioned stock in 1971 to two hours and 10 minutes, this with 9 bogies and further lifting of PROS over junctions.  An hour had been trimmed from the steam timings, but so had six coaches!  The big change came in 1977 with the HST, which was allowed higher speeds than loco-hauled trains over speed-restricted track (for instance the 75mph line speed between Cardiff and Stoke Gifford did not apply to HSTs which were allowed 90mph).  The timing was now 1hour 42minutes (restored a few years ago with the introduction of Class 800/801 on the route), but the load was now down to eight coaches (also for the 800/801s).  Roughly half the steam timings with roughly half the load, but hardly like for like.  A reasonable comparison is the two hour ten minute 1971 timing, 10 airco bogies behind a 47/4, ballpark two-thirds of the steam timing but with ballpark two thirds of the load.  The question now arises of 'could a Castle or a Brit have made this timing on the improved higher speed track with nine bogies', and I would suspect the answer is 'probably, but not with airco.

 

2khp Class 40s (around 6MT) were not capable of reliably matching 7P steam timings with steam loads and meeting their expected maintenance schedules, never mind 8P, and neither were the production Warships, resulting in step changes of 2,200hp for later Warships, one at 2,400hp, the original Peaks at 2,300, then the production Peak classes at 2,500 before the Westerns came in a 2,700 and the Class 47s at 2,750, though 100hp had to be taken off that to achieve reliabilty. 

 

The 1955 Modernisation Plan diesels had been specified for power by the findings of the Rugby Testing Station, which undervalued steam power output by about 25%.  Why this happened is another story, and one I am not qualified to comment on, but apart from the Deltics, 1st and 2nd generation diesels were underpowered for the work they were expected to do, a mistake not made with the LMR AL series electrics, presumably because the planners for that scheme did not use the Rugby date but came to their own conclusions.

 

The WR between 1959 and 1963 worked to the principle that a shed allocated a diesel locomotive had to withdraw three approximately equivalent steam engines to maintain the availability of locomotives for service, because the diesels were available 24/7 apart from their maintenance schedules and could cover three shifts of steam work.  This three-to-one ratio proved simplistic, and two-to-one would have been more realistic, as the underpowered Warships were thrashed to keep time (followed by Hymeks on the heavy South Wales trains) and the maintenance couldn't be kept up with.  The Westerns were the region's response to this, but delivery of the Swindon build was slow because of dead Warships blocking bays in the erecting shop.  The timetable came close to collapse for lack of motive power in 1962, ad things were not really comfortable until 1965, by which time the hydraulic programme was dead in the water and the region was being flooded with 37s and 47s, the classes that dug it out of the hole in '63.  Part of the cause of all this was the region's desire to be the first to eliminate steam entirely in the name of modernisation, for which there was considerable rivalry with the ER.  A combination of volume production diesel-electrics and falling traffic especially post-Beeching saved the day!

 

I'm not arguing steam = good and diesel = bad, but that steam was better than they claimed at the time, and diesel not as good.   Clearly, the writing was rightly on the wall for steam, which was unable to provide the performances or economies offered by diesels, but the diesels too often fell short of expectations. 

[nick_bastable]

3 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

 

. None of this happened, presumably because of money, and 1111 ended up being banished to the Marshlink line with other oddball DEMUs. 

 

a line I travelled on frequently between 1980-84  and there was some very odd stock

 

Use to like the 6s and 6L  from Hastings even if a bit noisy  but the Victoria service from Hastings  CEP/BEP's  served a wicked Bacon Butty

 

[Nearholmer]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

but the diesels too often fell short of expectations. 

A sane way to proceed would have been to match the timings and loads to the motive power. They knew from experience what their steamers could achieve on a routine basis, and calculating timings and loads for diesels isn’t that challenging, just a lot of wearing slide-rules out.

 

I assigned 2250hp to the express diesel, because that was about as far as things had got at the stage when the  valve gear problems on the Bulleid Pacifics were truly driving everyone mad. They would have had to count beans in earnest, comparing the options of some serious work on the steamers with buying diesels. BR seems not to have made that comparison, although a deep delve in the archives might reveal more, they appear to have compared rebuilding with building Brittanias instead, presumably because of our old enemy capital starvation.

 

So, how would a 2250hp loco stack up on WoE and Bournemouth trains?
 

Well, the prototype diesels operating singly were able to maintain steam timings on all but the heaviest Bournemouth trains. I think The Royal Wessex was the one that they struggled a bit with, due to its weight, and those diesels were of lower power than I’m postulating.

 

To the WoE the challenge is all the steep and twisty stuff west of Salisbury, and my guess is that a 2250hp diesel would not have been able to equal a MN in good form, so either the heaviest trains (The ACE at its most multi-portioned?) would have had to be reduced in length, or the timings trimmed back a bit.

 

But, if they could have scrapped two or three MN/WC/BB, and progressively shut-down steam motive power depots, and reduced staff numbers, adjusting the timings/loadings of a small % of the trains might have been a price worth paying.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Nearholmer

[JohnR]

I dont think the SR would have seriously considered DEMU for the West of England main line stuff. Their plans (before transfer of the lines to the WR) were for the East Devon branches. 

 

If it had been retained, They would probably have gone down the route of a Type 4 loco hauling TC type stock, with probably 33s then with the portions west of Exeter. 

[D7666]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

So, how would a 2250hp loco stack up on WoE and Bournemouth trains?

 

 

Considering D800s with 2 x 1152 hp = 2304 installed hp MD650s reigned the Exeter line for 7 years, they "stacked up" pretty damn well.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by D7666

[D7666]

17 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I think the plan was for refurbished 3H(M) units to work Victoria - Uckfield portions after the East Grinstead line was electrified. The DEMU would work in multiple with the 4-VEP working to EG and they'd split or join at Oxted. 

 

1111 was wired up so that it could work with DEMUs, but could be quickly altered to work in multiple with EMUs.

 

The plan was to refurbish the remaining DEMUs to this standard, and then swap all of them over to the EMU compatible mode in a short period of time. None of this happened, presumably because of money, and 1111 ended up being banished to the Marshlink line with other oddball DEMUs. 

 

You beat me to it. 1111 got a 4 position EMU controller instead of the 7 position DEMU controller, but the control wires remained DEMU only.

[D7666]

On 26/06/2023 at 21:17, bécasse said:

I seem to recollect that there was some story that adding shoe gear to 6S/L/B units would have been foul of the Restriction 0 loading gauge and that was one of the reasons why the EDs had retractable shoe gear. However, it was a long time ago now!

Not sure I either understand or believe that. And certainly never heard that at the time or ever since.

 

What is true is that any non electrified line - in general - there were very few exceptions then  - was not shoe gear cleared => must have retractable shoes. But that is not Hastings line specific it applied everywhere else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

3 hours ago, D7666 said:

Considering D800s with 2 x 1152 hp = 2304 installed hp MD650s reigned the Exeter line for 7 years, they "stacked up" pretty damn well.

 
I remember them. But, the issue is again about when. The WR hugely downgraded the WoE train service, so by the time the Warships were on the route the really big/heavy trains didn’t exist any more. The thinking I laid-out above was based on a 2250hp loco in the mid-50s, when those big trains still ran, so would probably either have had to be shortened, or slowed down a bit. I also had in mind a mid-1950s DE (being southern-inclined, the idea of a DH didn’t even cross my mind, and I don’t think the real-SR would have conceived of it either), which were heavy old beasts, so had to haul their own weight too (Warship c80 tons; Merchant Navy c95 tons; Class 44 c130 tons).

 

What I can’t find anywhere is a figure for the sustained power output of a Merchant Navy in original form to compare with my notional DE. I have a dim recollection from somewhere that it might have been 2700hp, but I think that was after re-building and that the earlier valvegear design somehow didn’t allow the full potential of the boiler to be realised. Then there is the fireman to consider.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Wickham Green too]

35 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 ... Then there is the fireman to consider. 

Don't forget one MN was tried with an automatic stoker .............

[lapford34102]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

What I can’t find anywhere is a figure for the sustained power output of a Merchant Navy in original form to compare with my notional DE. I have a dim recollection from somewhere that it might have been 2700hp,

Sounds right, the half dozen Brush Type 4's the SR borrowed in 67/68 were adequate subs for the MN and perfectly capable of handling trains like the Channel Island boat trains.

Worth noting the 3 car Hampshires units weren't to happy on some routes such as the Alton line due to the climbs involved and were effectively banned from Weymouth.

 

Stu

 

[Nearholmer]

All of the DEMUs were a bit of a joke where adhesion on gradients was even slightly compromised. I commuted on the 3H/3D for over a decade, and even nine car trains would sometimes find it impossible to get up the hills in the autumn, there simply wasn’t enough mass over the motor bogies.

[johnofwessex]

17 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

All of the DEMUs were a bit of a joke where adhesion on gradients was even slightly compromised. I commuted on the 3H/3D for over a decade, and even nine car trains would sometimes find it impossible to get up the hills in the autumn, there simply wasn’t enough mass over the motor bogies.

 

Why were they not fitted with sanders?

28 minutes ago, lapford34102 said:

Sounds right, the half dozen Brush Type 4's the SR borrowed in 67/68 were adequate subs for the MN and perfectly capable of handling trains like the Channel Island boat trains.

Worth noting the 3 car Hampshires units weren't to happy on some routes such as the Alton line due to the climbs involved and were effectively banned from Weymouth.

 

Stu

 

 

The story I have seen was that when the announcement reached Alton that they could run as 2 car units again the driver of a unit shunted the center trailer out of the way on the spot

[Nearholmer]

24 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

Why were they not fitted with sanders?

I can’t remember whether they had sanders or not. All I remember is arriving very late indeed for work on several occasions because the train I was on, or one in front couldn’t make it up to Oxted Tunnel.

[johnofwessex]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I can’t remember whether they had sanders or not. All I remember is arriving very late indeed for work on several occasions because the train I was on, or one in front couldn’t make it up to Oxted Tunnel.

 

For obvious reasons of weight distribution, the motor bogie wasnt under the engine room, sigh

[The Johnster]

I don't think the Southern Region DEMUs could have been developed more than their original form, which I believe was chosen to achieve commonality of parts with EMUS.  They were fun, but to be honest a bit crude and lumpen, and couldn't have been considered track-friendly.  In a way of course, they were developed, into the Sprinter series of dmus, but these were pretty different beasties, with underfloor engines and equipment.  

 

As a Canton guard in the early 70s, I once had a Saturday overtime job which entailed travelling on the cushions with a driver to Swindon, where I relieved a Reading guard and he was to pilot a Redhill driver on a Hastings-Barry Island Mystex, which consisted of 2 Hastings DEMUs, one with a Buffet.  This turned into an enormous fun day out!  It was a cracking sunny summer day, and the train was fully booked.  We were routed via Box, and the two Hastings sets equalled the 47+9 airco bogies timings between Swindon and North Somerset Jc., which was impressive.  The noise was magnificent!  The ride was, um, interesting, but the Redhill driver was clearly having the time of his life and entered into the spirit pretty enthusiastically notwithstanding the lurching and banging along.  I had my head out of the window most of the way taking it all in!

 

Climbing Filton and out of the Severn Tunnel (uffern dan, you should have heard the racket in there!) showed the limitations of these trains, 12 heavy bogies at 2.4khp but no loco, probably an equivalent power/weight ratio to a Warship & 12, though we were on time into Barry Island.  The Redhill driver was concerned with finding a bookies to put a bet on, so we showed him where it was, just outside of the station behind the signal box, and we then considered it our duty for the honour of the depot to regard him as a guest, so we had a troll around the fairground and the penny arcades, a stroll on the beach and up on to Friar's Point, fish'n'chips, and a beer in the 'Merrie Friars'.  Then back to Cardiff, where we had relief and another pilot driver took him to Reading, where he was to be relieved by men from his own depot and take his place on the cushions, a long day's work but he was obviously enjoying himself! 

 

We'd had a pretty sound day out ourselves, shame to take the money (Saturday Rest Day overtime, time and two-thirds IIRC and a bit of mileage bonus), but somehow I failed to avail myself of the opportunity of giving any of it back...