BR(S) DEMU could they have been developed further.

[Matt37268]

32 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I don't think the Southern Region DEMUs could have been developed more than their original form, which I believe was chosen to achieve commonality of parts with EMUS.  They were fun, but to be honest a bit crude and lumpen, and couldn't have been considered track-friendly.  In a way of course, they were developed, into the Sprinter series of dmus, but these were pretty different beasties, with underfloor engines and equipment.  

 

As a Canton guard in the early 70s, I once had a Saturday overtime job which entailed travelling on the cushions with a driver to Swindon, where I relieved a Reading guard and he was to pilot a Redhill driver on a Hastings-Barry Island Mystex, which consisted of 2 Hastings DEMUs, one with a Buffet.  This turned into an enormous fun day out!  It was a cracking sunny summer day, and the train was fully booked.  We were routed via Box, and the two Hastings sets equalled the 47+9 airco bogies timings between Swindon and North Somerset Jc., which was impressive.  The noise was magnificent!  The ride was, um, interesting, but the Redhill driver was clearly having the time of his life and entered into the spirit pretty enthusiastically notwithstanding the lurching and banging along.  I had my head out of the window most of the way taking it all in!

 

Climbing Filton and out of the Severn Tunnel (uffern dan, you should have heard the racket in there!) showed the limitations of these trains, 12 heavy bogies at 2.4khp but no loco, probably an equivalent power/weight ratio to a Warship & 12, though we were on time into Barry Island.  The Redhill driver was concerned with finding a bookies to put a bet on, so we showed him where it was, just outside of the station behind the signal box, and we then considered it our duty for the honour of the depot to regard him as a guest, so we had a troll around the fairground and the penny arcades, a stroll on the beach and up on to Friar's Point, fish'n'chips, and a beer in the 'Merrie Friars'.  Then back to Cardiff, where we had relief and another pilot driver took him to Reading, where he was to be relieved by men from his own depot and take his place on the cushions, a long day's work but he was obviously enjoying himself! 

 

We'd had a pretty sound day out ourselves, shame to take the money (Saturday Rest Day overtime, time and two-thirds IIRC and a bit of mileage bonus), but somehow I failed to avail myself of the opportunity of giving any of it back...

Is this another one for your ‘Confessions’ series? 😜

[Nearholmer]

Great story.

 

the Hastings units were only 1000hp though, not 1200hp, although maybe some got up rated (pedal assistance?).

 

The thump of the exhaust on tunnel roofs was indeed incredible. At Tunbridge Wells, the cinema used to be in the centre of town above (a long way above, up a substantial hill) a tunnel which runs through solid sandstone. When a train went through northbound, not only did you hear/feel it in the cinema, but you could actually feel each separate power car go by below.

[johnofwessex]

5 hours ago, Matt37268 said:

Is this another one for your ‘Confessions’ series? 😜

 

Many of us have reached the stage where reading them is medically contra indicated, even if I suggested they were written in the first place - and am very pleased he took up my suggestion

[45655]

13 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

 

Why were they not fitted with sanders?

 

The story I have seen was that when the announcement reached Alton that they could run as 2 car units again the driver of a unit shunted the center trailer out of the way on the spot

There were certainly a few occasions when a centre trailer was shunted out at Alton so the train would stand a fighting chance of getting back up the hill.  But in the light of experience Eastleigh used to keep a pool of sets reduced to two cars for this working. And a little later  1121 and 1122, which had been built for Bexhill West and New Romney and never augmented to three cars, returned to Eastleigh and became regulars on the route.

 

Remarkably, until 1968 the Mid-Hants service from Southampton was worked by two units, passing on the main line at Winchester Junction.  This meant that the train had a bare hour to get "over the Alps" and back again.  The turnaround time at Alton was four minutes and there was no margin for late running.  Limited adhesion, slippery rails and electric heating meant that three car trains and the Mid-Hants did not mix well in winter, particularly after the motor bogies were swapped in 1960 for examples with express gear ratios, so that the originals could go under new 4EPB units.

 

I'm told that drivers would keep the power on down the 1 in 60 bank from Medstead as far as a certain PW hut on the outskirts of Alton, and speeds of up to 90mph were not unknown on this section.  (The maximum for the units was supposed to be 75.)

 

Keith

Alton.

 

[Oldddudders]

On 28/06/2023 at 09:55, Nearholmer said:

Was Alan Hall the man in charge? I’ve got a mental picture of the guy, but am not sure I’ve got his name right.

Alan Hawes, Development Engineer. In the 1983 BRB Directory he is listed below Kenny Bence, but above Adrian Shooter! 

[Nearholmer]

Of course!

 

Hall, Hawes, you can see how I misremembered.

[Flying Pig]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

In a way of course, they were developed, into the Sprinter series of dmus, but these were pretty different beasties, with underfloor engines and equipment.  

 

I'm struggling to see what way.  The Sprinters were a 1980s take on the 1950s railcar and not really derived from the Southern sets at all (more like pre-war NCC and LMS trains).  I read a story somewhere (apologies if it was in this thread) that the original approach to Metro Cammell was made by WMPTE in reaction to the projected cost of Class 210 sets and the latter had a similar layout to the DEMUs so perhaps that's the link, but it isn't a technological one.

 

So mid to late 1960s DHMU with an inter-city vibe to replace steam on the the West of England line, anyone?  Class 310/312 cab on mainline Mk2 stock perhaps.

[Wickham Green too]

2 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

... Class 310/312 cab on mainline Mk2 stock perhaps.

That's pretty close to a Mk2 Class 124, isn't it !

[Flying Pig]

1 minute ago, Wickham Green too said:

That's pretty close to a Mk2 Class 124, isn't it !

 

Yes it is, or a 123, or even a 126 but with a few more years of development.  Inter-city DMUs are a bit of a forgotten part of the modernisation period and deserve more love from those who believe everything before Sprinters was loco hauled (some of it was, but only after the DMUs had fallen apart).

 

It's a bit of a long shot as the Southern was wedded to Mk1 construction techniques into the 1970s.

[The Lurker]

16 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

All of the DEMUs were a bit of a joke where adhesion on gradients was even slightly compromised. I commuted on the 3H/3D for over a decade, and even nine car trains would sometimes find it impossible to get up the hills in the autumn, there simply wasn’t enough mass over the motor bogies.

The Hastings units were always an impressive site on non-stoppers through Tonbridge. There was one which I guess would have been around 5 on a weekday evening in the early / mid 80s. They came round the band at one end (limited to 30?) and accelerated on the down fast before taking the pretty tight uphill curve to Somerhill tunnel. I'd never thought of them or any of the stoppers (or the Tonbridge - Uckfield trains) struggling up the hill, but then I was on the Paddock Wood bound trains

[BernardTPM]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

That's pretty close to a Mk2 Class 124, isn't it !

 

4 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Yes it is, or a 123, or even a 126 but with a few more years of development.  Inter-city DMUs are a bit of a forgotten part of the modernisation period and deserve more love from those who believe everything before Sprinters was loco hauled

Though visually not obvious, they were intergrally built, not Mk.1 bodied. Swindon used the InterCity DMU jigs to build the prototype Mk.2 W13252.

[johnofwessex]

What were the Inter City DMU's like to travel in?

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, The Lurker said:

The Hastings units were always an impressive site on non-stoppers through Tonbridge. There was one which I guess would have been around 5 on a weekday evening in the early / mid 80s. They came round the band at one end (limited to 30?) and accelerated on the down fast before taking the pretty tight uphill curve to Somerhill tunnel. I'd never thought of them or any of the stoppers (or the Tonbridge - Uckfield trains) struggling up the hill, but then I was on the Paddock Wood bound trains

All was well if all four power cars of a peak-hour 12-car were punching their weight. As the years rolled by, the wizards at West Marina were increasingly struggling to keep their fleet reliable, and three out of four motors really told going round the corner at Tonbridge. It would also have lost time all the way from Hither Green to Knockholt, i.e the uphill bit. With tight timings on 1 BTR, this mattered. After all, the DEMUs already took two paths compared to the electrics.....

[Flying Pig]

8 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

What were the Inter City DMU's like to travel in?

 

 

Pretty pants, actually.  By the mid-1970s the Class 124-powered Liverpool to Hull service was notorious for its pedestrian timings.  Also the seats seemed peculiarly low, even to a ten year old.  On the plus side I do remember a Lyons fruit pie from a buffet that was still operating, so that's something.

 

I had a ride from Piccadilly to Sheffield later on in 1980 in what was probably one of the mixed 123 and 124 sets.  With the windows open on a hot day it was incredibly rattly and noisy, though of course I enjoyed that at the time.  Not really Inter City levels of comfort though.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Flying Pig

[Jeremy Cumberland]

41 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

What were the Inter City DMU's like to travel in?

The 123s were very nice, as I recall. I particularly liked the compartments - very unusual in first generation DMUs.

 

I find the 126s a lot harder to remember, but I don't recall having any liking for them, even though these, too, had compartment trailer cars. Quite likely my opinion is entirely based on their appearance. The 123s had a rather classy front end, like the 309s (which were also great units), The 126s were, quite frankly, ugly.

 

I never travelled on the 79xxx Edinburgh-Glasgow units, nor on the 124 Trans-Pennines before they were hybridised with 123s.

[Artless Bodger]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

At Tunbridge Wells, the cinema used to be in the centre of town above (a long way above, up a substantial hill) a tunnel which runs through solid sandstone.

The Essoldo? As a family, after visiting Gran, we used to wait for the 7 or 33 bus outside the station on a Sunday afternoon, and could hear the them, the line crossed under the road nearby and the exhaust plume made me think it was a steam engine once. A later holiday in Hastings we stayed in a BB&EM backing onto the post office building at the station and from our bedroom could see, hear and smell the trains as they emerged onto the road bridge, the final power car at full chat. Being pretty well coeval with the 6S I feel a bond with them, and share some characteristics, slow, overweight and noisy. 

[SRman]

My memories of the Hastings units was of them flying through Petts Wood station, on the low embankment at the end of my grandparents' back garden. They were usually either just throttling up or down at that point, depending on the direction they were going.

The 3H units on the other hand were more local to where I lived in Pound Hill (West Sussex): they ran from nearby Three Bridges to East Grinstead, and at one time I had to cross over the line on a road bridge to get to the school campus I attended.

[Flying Pig]

I used to watch Hastings units idling through London Bridge in the evening rush hour.  The first time I saw one it seemed very odd, like a tinplate toy with its flat sides, but they became something different to look out for in the final year or two they were running.  I had a couple of rides on one, including a Sunday evening journety up from Crowborough that seemed to take forever.

 

There was a train formed of 3D sets that used to depart about 17:15 from the terminal platforms at London Bridge, making a lot more noise (I think it was later changed to 33 hauled stock, possibly top and tailed?).

Edited July 1, 2023 by Flying Pig

[Nearholmer]

The 33 hauled trains to East Grinstead and Uckfield were just that, hauled. I think there was one T&T move, the first ECS of the evening from New Cross Gate sidings.

 

The 1719 was the Uckfield loco hauled. That slot was a loco hauled train for all the time that I recall, all through the 70s and 80s, so the nine-car you saw was probably the preceding train, which I think was an EG one. There was a slightly earlier Uckfield one, six cars IIRC, which was diagrammed for DEMUs, but would be substituted with a loco-hauled made from all sorts of odd stock (sometimes a Southampton Boat Train rake) when there was a DEMU famine.

 

Hastings units were very rare indeed on the Uckfield and EG routes, but there was a period when one was used for an early morning turn on the Eridge-Tonbridge service, continuing to Edenbridge(?), crossover and back to Tonbridge as the school run. It then stabled, took the kids home to Edenbridge in the afternoon, then somehow became part of the evening peak London to Hastings services.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Nearholmer

[DY444]

45 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The 33 hauled trains to East Grinstead and Uckfield were just that, hauled. I think there was one T&T move, the first ECS of the evening from New Cross Gate sidings.

 

There was one T&T in each peak.  The last New Cross Gate empties in the morning and, as you say, the first empties in the evening. 

[Flying Pig]

9 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

There was one T&T in each peak.  The last New Cross Gate empties in the morning and, as you say, the first empties in the evening. 

 

 

Quite possible I saw it in the platform but didn't clearly see the departure as my own train left about the same time.  In earlier years I might not have seen it at all as I think I was catching a train at 17:10.   

[jim.snowdon]

22 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

The 123s had a rather classy front end, like the 309s (which were also great units), The 126s were, quite frankly, ugly.

The 123s and 309s, plus the 124s, were designed by Swindon (as I was once informed by the Chief Draftsman in the 1970s when I was often there researching GW wagons).

[Wickham Green too]

... but so were the frankly quite ugly class 126 !

[jim.snowdon]

True, but there is about 5 years between the original class 126 design and the 123s, as well as the enlightening hand of the BR Design Panel, plus the experience of the D10xx locomotives.

[St Enodoc]

On 30/06/2023 at 22:32, Oldddudders said:

Alan Hawes, Development Engineer. In the 1983 BRB Directory he is listed below Kenny Bence, but above Adrian Shooter! 

All great names from my past - plus Jim McKie, Jim Vine, Allan Barter, Max Millard, etc., etc. Not sure whether I ever appeared in that book (or whether I deserved to...).