Bank Trains (not banking engines)

[RonnieS]

I was trying to get a bit more info from the (later) code 9T33. the 9 stands for Local Goods (formerly J or K) but what was the T? It might be trip?

Not the area code as T was Newport and Cardiff in the enclosed booklet.

Edited July 14, 2023 by RonnieS
ADDED IMAGE OF BOOK

[Oldddudders]

T was often used to indicate a local trip working. 

[RonnieS]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The expression clearly seems  - with evidence so far - to have been a Black Country term so presumably had its origin there back in the days of 'engine houses'.

We better say West Midlands Term as the Black Country is the area where the 30ft coal seam comes to the surface - so West Bromwich, Oldbury, Blackheath, Cradley Heath, Old Hill, Bilston, Dudley, Tipton, Wednesfield and parts of Halesowen, Wednesbury and Walsall are Black Country but not Wolverhampton, Stourbridge and Smethwick.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, RonnieS said:

I was trying to get a bit more info from the (later) code 9T33. the 9 stands for Local Goods (formerly J or K) but what was the T? It might be trip?

Not the area code as T was Newport and Cardiff in the enclosed booklet.

T was used on the Western for trip workings.  As with theh Bank Trains (which were a local name for trip workings) the code was allocated to a trip diagram or trainplan and not to a route.   Hence the reference in some places  to then as 'targets'.

 

The idea doesn't seem to have lasted very long on the WR, where it had originated, and generally local area letters were used although not always in the way they would be if they were part of a train headcode/identification code.

[The Stationmaster]

7 minutes ago, RonnieS said:

We better say West Midlands Term as the Black Country is the area where the 30ft coal seam comes to the surface - so West Bromwich, Oldbury, Blackheath, Cradley Heath, Old Hill, Bilston, Dudley, Tipton, Wednesfield and parts of Halesowen, Wednesbury and Walsall are Black Country but not Wolverhampton, Stourbridge and Smethwick.

I take your point but it does not seem to have applied throughout the GWR in the West Midlands being seemingly concentrated in the Stourbridge - Wolverhampton area with a few fringes of that thrown in for good measure.  Equally it didn't apply throughout OWW territory going by evidence from as far back as 1891

 

Looking at my 1891 Service Time tables (STTs) although Wolverhampton is included under the Brimingham Division STT it is the only location in that STT which has listed what were then called 'Bank Engines'.  Similarly Stourbridge was the only location in the STT covering the rest of the former OWW which also had 'Bank Engines'.  And those engines clearly covered both trip working and various local pilot turns.  The name seems from what I can find to have been unique to those two locations.

 

I am making a. presumption but would think that the change of name from 'Bank Engines' to Bank Trains' came in after Foorplate staff agreements introduced more restrictive limits on the length of the working day.  Hence, for example, almost 11 hours off shed at 'Stourbridge Engine House' would have then exceeded the length of the maximum permissible normal working day so could no longer be shown as a Bank Engine' diagram which automatically implied a crew diagram to match the engine's hours.

[Michael Hodgson]

 

2 hours ago, RonnieS said:

I was trying to get a bit more info from the (later) code 9T33. the 9 stands for Local Goods (formerly J or K) but what was the T? It might be trip?

Not the area code as T was Newport and Cardiff in the enclosed booklet.

4-character Headcodes introduced in 1960  had different meanings and usages in different regions.

 

The first digit always identified the class of train, the letter was standardised across the regions for certain letters (notably the inter-regional services) but not the whole alphabet.  After that it gets difficult.  Usage of some letters varied from region to region, and could even vary between Divisions within a Region/classes of train.  There was a technical limitation in some places because there were originally only 20 letters that could be entered on some early train describer keyboards. 

 

The last two digits might identify a particular train, a particular route or even destination according to what the first two characters were. 

And then the usages weren't set for all time - there were various changes over the years. 

Where all this was documented also varied - it could sometimes be found in sectional or regional appendices, but also various other documents such as WTTs.

 

A code was not necessarily unique across the whole of BR.  You would need to know both where and when a particular historical headcode was cited to determine what it meant, and as far as I can see it might still be difficult in some cases as you wouldn't necessarily know whether you had all the instructions and changes thereto.

 

Having said all that, 9T33 might well be a trip working, but it could apply to several different trains in the UK at any one time, although such duplication in any one locality would be very unlikely.  No reason in principle why a local trip working on Tyneside needs to carry a different headcode from one in Cardiff, Norwich or Motherwell, as long as everybody in each area knows what they're dealing with.

[The Stationmaster]

WR train describers (TDs) in the panel signal boxes could only cater for a maximum of ten digits on each field because there were only ten places on the stanard telephone dial which was used to create a description and the electrom-mechanical drums inside the TD displays were also able to handle 10 digitis.   As a result there were variations between different panel boxes in respect of the alpha digits theor TDs could display.

 

In many respecs it didn't matter at all if codes were duplicated between, and even in soem cases within, a Region but once TOPS came along there was a clear need to differeentiate what it applied to if someone, for example. entered 7A67 on TOPS Enquiry.  Ths teh enquiry response would be to list all the 7A27s running that day on BR and with the information that gave you could pur ina more detailed enquiry to get the one you wanted.

 

This while the WTT sh owed a 4 digit code  Train Service Database held a much longer code which identified individually numbered trains and  grew gradually, as extra details were added to 9 nine fdigits.  the next priblem came along in the 1980s when it was found that problems could, and did, occur when two trains with the same 4 digit code, or even the full code becane confiused.  for example if yesterday's oil train to Albion had been delayed and today's for whatever reason got ahead of it the second train could be carrying a different product.  the other problem as signal box control areas grew was with Class 2passenger trains carrying route based headcodes as every stopping train between, say Paddington and Reading had the same headcode.  So to identify individual train  without adding even more digits (which didn't show on most trains describers anyway) the original alpha= destination principle was broken down t enable letters to be used to discriminate between individual trains. Thus on our local branch line 2A is no longer used and has been replaced by 2H and every strain has its own individual number in the final two digits.

 

Something similar happened, much earlier, on the WR for trip codes with another alpha replacing the 'T' and the fact that it duplicated a geographic destination area being ruled out by the combination of a Class 9 first digit in the headcode and but higher numbers being used for the two h final digits.  That meant that a trip in one area might be carrying the same alpha digit and the final two numeric digits as a Class 2 passenger train in another area but a differen identification of its class in the numeric first digit.

 

The original WR system had been very carefully thought out and was easy to followe lud s it was easy for teh timetabling pr eople to number trains.  But it didn't stand the changes brought about by an evolving and increasingly computerised railway using very large datavases with system wide coverage.

[RonnieS]

On 12/07/2023 at 18:44, RonnieS said:

 

Just received this (1961) info so at the risk of Duplicating your info. I have to thank you for pointing us in the direction of Oxley

I also recall another "odd" train. Dad and other railwaymen called it the "Roundup" it collected  missing goods vehicles (mainly brake vans). I believe a circular went out asking the whereabouts of various stuff and a loco was sent out to collect. Must have been a "Q"!

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, RonnieS said:

I also recall another "odd" train. Dad and other railwaymen called it the "Roundup" it collected  missing goods vehicles (mainly brake vans). I believe a circular went out asking the whereabouts of various stuff and a loco was sent out to collect. Must have been a "Q"!

Not on the Western (and probably not in most places elsewhere).  They were simply created as 'specials' either by the Freight Planning Office or Control (or in later years by someone in a local Area organisation) and the depots would simply cover them using Spare men and engines or have additional turns booked to them with Special Diagrams to cover.

 

Some were regulars such as Sunday specials to clear surplus traffic from Servern Tunnel Jcn to Swindon  and the London Division which could sometimes be as many as 5 or 6 trains.  One Controller at Reading one Sunday got hold of a set of Didcot men plus an engine and brakevan and cleared all the empties out of most of the Up side yards between there and West Drayton finishing up with a massive train of well over 100 wagons.  We used to do it locally ar Radyr when empties built up at Nantgarw coke ovens wnd we clear them out on a sundsay including on one occasion bringing outa train with 100 wagons just to get the job finished.

[RonnieS]

And to further "Muddy the water" we have Bank Engines!

 

So Bank Trains, Bank Engines and Banking Engines

[RonnieS]

This is listed under Shunting Engines!

[The Stationmaster]

8 minutes ago, RonnieS said:

And to further "Muddy the water" we have Bank Engines!

 

So Bank Trains, Bank Engines and Banking Engines

You forgot Pilots/Pilot Engines, plus of course Trip Engines. (which sorts of work were covered by Bank Engines/Bank Trains at Stourbridge and Wolverhampton).