Need help identifying GWR kits

[br-nse-fan]

Hello All

 

I recently picked up some alleged GWR coach kits that have been finished to a relatively good standard, but I am having difficulty identifying them.  

I'm not sure who the original manufacturer of the kits are (Phoenix?) but I have seen similar kits before.  They have what seems to be an aluminum side with wood chassis and roof, and a metal sole bar.  The bogies are mostly metal, with the exception of one that is running on a set of incorrect Hornby MK1 bogies.

 

I've spent several days on google and every page I can find on GWR coaches, but while there are lots of written information, there is not much in the way of photo's or drawings.  There are a number of coaches that are similar, but nothing that I can say are a definitive match.  I've attached images showing both sides of the coaches as I know they can sometime vary from diagram to diagram.  I've also attached a photo of what appears to be an outside frame Monster, but it does not quite match up.  Again, I can't find much information on these online.

 

It's been suggested that these are all fictitious flights of near-GWR fancy.. but as these are kits, and not scratch built.. I was hoping to tap into the greater hive mind for assistance!

[br-nse-fan]

Comparison shot with a K12 (or similar).

The two middle coaches look larger than "normal", but I don't think they are 70'

[corneliuslundie]

I can't be much help.

What is unusual is the brake thirds with only two compartments. The Cambrian had some which became GWR property but they were 54 ft 6 in. long, and this one is shorter than that. Also the roof profile doesn't look right for the Cambrian. So did any other company absorbed by the GWR have fairly short 2-compartment brake thirds?

Jonathan

[Steamport Southport]

47 minutes ago, br-nse-fan said:

Comparison shot with a K12 (or similar).

The two middle coaches look larger than "normal", but I don't think they are 70'

 

Third from top looks like the Triang Caledonian Railway coach "Great Westernised" with different ends, roof and profile to disguise it's BR Mark One roots. Panelling and brake compartment window seems to have been altered.

 

I would suggest the second one with the six wheel bogies comes from the same source.

 

Quite common back in the day. The magazines were full of articles on detailing and converting them. Triang/Hornby even released a version themselves in GWR livery.

 

These are what I mean.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/20681/hornby_r2610_caledonian_loco_3_coaches_limited_edition_of_2500/stockdetail

 

 

Jason

[Paul H Vigor]

1 hour ago, br-nse-fan said:

Hello All

 

I recently picked up some alleged GWR coach kits that have been finished to a relatively good standard, but I am having difficulty identifying them.  

I'm not sure who the original manufacturer of the kits are (Phoenix?) but I have seen similar kits before.  They have what seems to be an aluminum side with wood chassis and roof, and a metal sole bar.  The bogies are mostly metal, with the exception of one that is running on a set of incorrect Hornby MK1 bogies.

 

I've spent several days on google and every page I can find on GWR coaches, but while there are lots of written information, there is not much in the way of photo's or drawings.  There are a number of coaches that are similar, but nothing that I can say are a definitive match.  I've attached images showing both sides of the coaches as I know they can sometime vary from diagram to diagram.  I've also attached a photo of what appears to be an outside frame Monster, but it does not quite match up.  Again, I can't find much information on these online.

 

It's been suggested that these are all fictitious flights of near-GWR fancy.. but as these are kits, and not scratch built.. I was hoping to tap into the greater hive mind for assistance!

Some of them suggest a hint of LNWR?

[br-nse-fan]

45 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Third from top looks like the Triang Caledonian Railway coach "Great Westernised" with different ends, roof and profile to disguise it's BR Mark One roots. Panelling and brake compartment window seems to have been altered.

 

I would suggest the second one with the six wheel bogies comes from the same source.

 

Quite common back in the day. The magazines were full of articles on detailing and converting them. Triang/Hornby even released a version themselves in GWR livery.

 

These are what I mean.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/20681/hornby_r2610_caledonian_loco_3_coaches_limited_edition_of_2500/stockdetail

 

 

Jason

Hi Jason

 

It does appear that these are very likely Caledonian coaches repainted into GWR livery.  The 2nd coach (12 wheel) seems to be a kit (metal sides, wood chassis, etc) of what this shows as a conversion one of those very Caledonian brake coaches:

 

https://srmg.org.uk/an-excaledonian-railway-12wheel-taunton-brake-through-coach

 

The third and fourth coaches may well be of Caledonian origin as well (kits, not conversions), this will at least widen the search criteria.

[4069]

18 hours ago, br-nse-fan said:

 ...repainted into GWR livery

...by somebody who had no idea about GWR livery, and was happy to use loco and wagon transfers on carriages 😮

Edited July 27, 2023 by 4069

[The Johnster]

You mean like Lima and Hornby did with mk1s?

[Steamport Southport]

7 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

You mean like Lima and Hornby did with mk1s?

 

And the Dart Valley Railway!

 

 

Don't forget it was very difficult to get transfers. We didn't exactly have Fox, Modelmaster, Railtec, etc. back then and PC Models transfer sets were expensive ISTR.

 

 

I wouldn't be too harsh. I quite like them, they have a certain charm. Many "proper" layouts in the 1960s and 1970s were full of stock like that masquerading as something else as that was all they could get.

 

How many Triang clerestories or Ratio MR coaches painted in various liveries did you see?

 

Hornby Dublo N2s in GWR livery as they "could be something from South Wales". LNER liveried Jinties trying to be J72s. I remember one Railway Of The Month even had Rebuilt West Countries in SR livery.

 

 

Jason

[DCB]

On 28/07/2023 at 01:18, Steamport Southport said:

Many "proper" layouts in the 1960s and 1970s were full of stock like that masquerading as something else as that was all they could get.

How many Triang clerestories or Ratio MR coaches painted in various liveries did you see?

Hornby Dublo N2s in GWR livery as they "could be something from South Wales". LNER liveried Jinties trying to be J72s. I remember one Railway Of The Month even had Rebuilt West Countries in SR livery.

Jason

What do you mean the 1970's   I have clerestories on my workbench as I write and an H/D N2 awaiting a taper boiler conversion to something vaguely Taff Vale or Rhymney. It's a lot more satisfying than doing a load of work so you can afford an all singing all dancing DCC sound version which won't pull the skin of a milky latte  with genuine smoke from the overworked overheating coreless motor.   

 

I don't think the coaches are Triang GWR Caledonians, I took a screenshot of a genuine one which has a custom interior on eBay (£5 + £3.50 p+p ....

Edited July 29, 2023 by DCB

[The Johnster]

Friend of mine back in the 80s tried to make Swindon rebuild Cardiff Rly. 0-6-2T no. 155 out of a Lima J50 and some boiler/smokebox bits from an Airfix 61xx plastic kit.  He’d already made a passable rebuilt TVR 04 out of a Lima small prairie on a ML J72 mech.  Those were the days!

[Coach bogie]

The two long coaches look like they could be a cut and shut from the ex Triang Hornby Caledonian coaches (which also appeared in GWR livery at times.

The Triang sides just slotted into the BR MK 1 frames making removal for working on straight forward. For some reason the 12 wheeler has LMS bogies.

 

The shorter coach with the long brake has LNWR style panelling. Could this be a cut and shut from Ratio sides? just a thought.

 

I do like the Monster with Southern third rail electric bogies. The truss/gas cylinder block is from a Triang shorty clerestory.  It looks scratch built from sheet/card. I remember trying myself in my early days of modelling - well there was not much else on the market.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

[br-nse-fan]

On 28/07/2023 at 07:09, Coach bogie said:

The two long coaches look like they could be a cut and shut from the ex Triang Hornby Caledonian coaches (which also appeared in GWR livery at times.

The Triang sides just slotted into the BR MK 1 frames making removal for working on straight forward. For some reason the 12 wheeler has LMS bogies.

 

The shorter coach with the long brake has LNWR style panelling. Could this be a cut and shut from Ratio sides? just a thought.

 

I do like the Monster with Southern third rail electric bogies. The truss/gas cylinder block is from a Triang shorty clerestory.  It looks scratch built from sheet/card. I remember trying myself in my early days of modelling - well there was not much else on the market.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Hi Mike

 

None of the coaches are cut & shut or modifications of preexisting models. These all have metal sides with a wood chassis and roof.  I've seen similar kits before, but the manufacturer escapes me at this time.

 

The 12 wheeler has LMS bogies because these are Caledonian "Grampian" coaches, at least the two large ones are.  I've not been able to identify the shorter long brake, but it too is a solid metal side with preformed panels and cut/punched windows.  I'm wondering if these are ancient CCW kits (or similar)?

[Miss Prism]

(deleted)

Edited July 30, 2023 by Miss Prism

[PMP]

2 hours ago, br-nse-fan said:

Hi Mike

 

None of the coaches are cut & shut or modifications of preexisting models. These all have metal sides with a wood chassis and roof.  

 

The 12 wheeler has LMS bogies because these are Caledonian "Grampian" coaches, at least the two large ones are.  I've not been able to identify the shorter long brake, but it too is a solid metal side with preformed panels and cut/punched windows.  I'm wondering if these are ancient CCW kits (or similar)?

I think you’re in right era and area in terms of CCW for the components. MRM at Kings Cross used to do wooden roof profiles to cut to length. There were separate sides in early days of etching done by IIRC PC models and Perseverance as two starters for ten. I‘d guess these to be late 60’s or early 70’s build if they are etched sided, and the type of Triang/Hornby coupling used.
One thing I’ve never seen before either in magazines,retail experience or exhibition, are the bogies with the screw assembly  through the side frame. Identify that and you may have a lead in to the rough date built, and possibly who manufactured the sides.

Edited July 30, 2023 by PMP
Addition

[Coach bogie]

CCW certainly made a large range of bogies including the six wheel type. Not bad for 33p a pair, but then this was the 1950's. Interesting how purchase tax was listed separately back then @20%. And we all complained when VAT when up to 20%

 

Mike Wiltshire