Points problems... again

[Lanky Atlantic]

Having yet more issues with my electrofrog points, after sorting out the initial shorting problems now after adding in another set half the layout is no longer conducting power, from the area after each set of points on the left, see image below, but I don't understand what the issue is, left and right turnouts are being used and the image below shows how it looks like on both areas, do I need to reverse it to stop the power issue? I don't have a clue on what's going on and it's really annoying me to have to ask people again because to me it seems like I'm just wasting people's time, so sorry about that, I just need advice on what to do to fix it so I can actually run my trains properly, for reference I'm talking about the outer loop only, not any of the inside ones

Edited July 29, 2023 by Ruston65
mistake

[woodenhead]

Daft question, how many power clips are you employing and have you wired any other parts of the railway?

 

I can see only a single power clip in the image.

[Lanky Atlantic]

Just the one which probably isn't helping, since this layout is being designed in mind to be able to be taken apart in future to expand it, I'd like to be as simplistic on the wiring as I can get, not really got an idea of how the individual power clips work honestly

[PMP]

 

This looks odd, you’ve put an insulated joiner which will prevent power reaching the top left hand point. Replace it with a metal one as a starter for ten, as it is, you’ve stopped power reaching the right hand rail of the top left point.

[PMP]

9 minutes ago, Ruston65 said:

Just the one which probably isn't helping,

You will need a second power feed to the inner circuit. Without one that inner track won’t ever work.

 

Take some pictures of the pointwork and indicate clearly where you have metal rail joiners, and plastic ones. Use something like a drawing pin to make it easy for people to see what you used and where. That will help make sure you have the right type of joiners in the right place.

Edited July 29, 2023 by PMP

[Lanky Atlantic]

2 minutes ago, PMP said:

You will need a second power feed to the inner circuit. Without one that inner track won’t ever work.

Oh yes I know that for certain, was worried I'd need one individually for the points

[Lanky Atlantic]

9 minutes ago, PMP said:

 

This looks odd, you’ve put an insulated joiner which will prevent power reaching the top left hand point. Replace it with a metal one as a starter for ten, as it is, you’ve stopped power reaching the right hand rail of the top left point.

Yes there is an insulated joiner there, however that bit of track is unpowered so that top left point isn't a concern at the moment, it's the outer loop where my problem is, only one side of my loop is powered whilst the other is not, for reference that image shows how it looks on the front of the layout, visible in the other image i attached

[woodenhead]

Which will then move into your next problem - only a single controller  and no obvious switches.

 

If you power all the track as you will have to, then with just a single controller you'll end up with two trains running in the same direction on two tracks which I guess is not what you want.

 

Also there is a an odd points set up at the back suggesting a third loop has begun or some sidings and depending on how you've laid those points they might also need a feed and at that point definitely going to need to add isolated areas and switches.

[long island jack]

might be an idea to show a track plan, then we/someone can show where you need insulated fishplates and power feeds

[PMP]

3 minutes ago, Ruston65 said:

Yes there is an insulated joiner there, however that bit of track is unpowered so that top left point isn't a concern at the moment, it's the outer loop where my problem is, only one side of my loop is powered whilst the other is not, for reference that image shows how it looks on the front of the layout, visible in the other image i attached

No disrespect that’s not making any sense, (to me).  May I suggest you sketch on a piece of paper your track plan, take a picture of it and post it here. 
You mention electrofrog points. Just confirm you’ve not cut any of the wires on them and they are as new out of the box.

[Lanky Atlantic]

14 minutes ago, PMP said:

No disrespect that’s not making any sense, (to me).  May I suggest you sketch on a piece of paper your track plan, take a picture of it and post it here. 
You mention electrofrog points. Just confirm you’ve not cut any of the wires on them and they are as new out of the box.

My bad... what I'm trying to say is that the outer loop is my current focus until I get myself a new controller, when that's done I'll wire up all the points on the inside, I'd just like the outer loop to be working, yes the points are brand new and as they would come out of their packaging, the green line on the image below shows where on my outer loop is receiving no power, the other half of the loop is fine and works as it should

[Andy Hayter]

I suggest you move your power clip to just next to the controller.

 

In general it is advised to power at the toe of the points before the tracks diverge.

 

I suspect that the problem is that you are powering the track at the moment between two points at the divergent side.

[Lanky Atlantic]

Alright, I'll give that a go, see if that changes anything

[Lanky Atlantic]

Done, placed the points behind the power track, unfortunately though this seems to have changed nothing and now the opposite side of the loop is unpowered and my locomotives stop dead on the track just after the points on each crossover when trying to go around the outer loop

Edited July 29, 2023 by Ruston65

[Andy Hayter]

Well that still takes us forwards.  Either the point blades are not making proper contact, or you have placed insulated joiners in a way that prevents the power reaching the other side of the loop.

 

As suggested earlier, it would be good if you could show us where you have inserted these insulated joiners.

[Paul H Vigor]

2 minutes ago, Ruston65 said:

Done, placed the points behind the power track, unfortunately though this seems to have changed nothing and now the opposite side of the loop is unpowered and my locomotives stop dead on the track just after the points on each crossover when trying to go around the outer loop

Simply changing points will isolate sections of your layout. You need to bite the bullet and install more power feeds.

[Derekl]

If there is an insulating rail joiner at the frog end of both the points on the outer loop (as there should be) then power will not go beyond the points. You need a separate feed for the part of the loop that is dead.

[Lanky Atlantic]

well first off, here's where I've put the joiners, I've marked them with circles so it's clear to see where they are, hopefully I've just placed them in a way that means power can't flow as that should be an easy fix, more power connectors is another kettle of fish, hopefully this helps

Edited July 29, 2023 by Ruston65

[woodenhead]

Your isolated joiners are in the right place to avoid shorts, however, this means you've also now introduced isolated elements of track which need power feeds.

 

You will need another power feed where you had it previous to ensure both halves of the outer route are powered.  And in the absence of any switches, they will always be powered.

[Lanky Atlantic]

Right... well is there a way to do that with my current setup with just the standard Hornby controller? I presume all that I need to do is add in a power clip/track and join it up?

[woodenhead]

There is this from 10 years ago, maybe Hornby have some additional products now to make it simpler

 

 

Edit: it seems it is still available and the suggested Hornby approach if using a single DC Controller.

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/track-link-wire-pack-r8201?

Edited July 29, 2023 by woodenhead

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Ruston65 said:

Just the one which probably isn't helping, since this layout is being designed in mind to be able to be taken apart in future to expand it, I'd like to be as simplistic on the wiring as I can get, not really got an idea of how the individual power clips work honestly

Well, there's your problem. You're trying to make it too simple and as you've found out, it isn't that easy.

One pair of wires is insufficient to adequately power your layout, regardless of where you fit them.

 

But please supply a track plan of what you intend to lay. From your green lines, something is going on around the rear, that is adversely affecting things.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Ruston65 said:

My bad... what I'm trying to say is that the outer loop is my current focus until I get myself a new controller, when that's done I'll wire up all the points on the inside, I'd just like the outer loop to be working, yes the points are brand new and as they would come out of their packaging, the green line on the image below shows where on my outer loop is receiving no power, the other half of the loop is fine and works as it should

Might I suggest that although the inner loop, isn't a concern in your view - it is adversely affecting what is happening on the outside loop. You need to address both loops.

[Right Away]

4 hours ago, Ruston65 said:

Having yet more issues with my electrofrog points, after sorting out the initial shorting problems now after adding in another set half the layout is no longer conducting power, from the area after each set of points on the left, see image below, but I don't understand what the issue is, left and right turnouts are being used and the image below shows how it looks like on both areas, do I need to reverse it to stop the power issue? I don't have a clue on what's going on and it's really annoying me to have to ask people again because to me it seems like I'm just wasting people's time, so sorry about that, I just need advice on what to do to fix it so I can actually run my trains properly, for reference I'm talking about the outer loop only, not any of the inside ones

 

Please don’t think you’re wasting anyone’s time. The vast majority of members will be only too pleased to help with what may appear to be “easy” or repetitive queries; the only silly question is the one not asked.

 

As others have replied, you have placed the insulated rail joiners in the correct position to ensure there are no short-circuit issues.

I am not familiar with your controller and its means of connectivity to the track and so my suggestion may not be the road you’d wish to go down, but here goes.

Would you perhaps consider feeding maybe three or four (or more if you’d like) separate sections of the layout, each section isolated with IRJs and yet each having its own isolating switch. This would enable one train to be stationary (at a platform for example) whilst another is being operated. Yes, this means additional wiring to each section of track and to the switches, which could located near the controller, but careful positioning of the track feeds will ensure there are no unintentional “dead” sections.

 

[Neil]

I've taken a look at what you've done so far and what problems you're experiencing. I've done you a simple to follow diagram for the outer circuit and where it will join the inner one. This will work.

 

 

 

A couple of things to note:

 

The insulated joiners between the pair of points (the left hand joiners on my diagram) need to be directly opposite each other, not offset as you have done. If you are going to use a separate controller for the inner circuit some locos may not traverse this section.

 

Also the pair of insulated joiners on the outer circuit (the left hand ones on my diagram) can be placed anywhere clockwise of the power feed up to, but not beyond, the diverging end (right hand end) of the point on the outer circuit.

 

Edit:  When you've got the outer circuit working drop me a PM and I'll try and guide you through the inner circuit.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Neil