Changing of scale ?

[brossard]

9 minutes ago, tractionman said:

Thanks @brossard (John) for your reply and thoughts, I have the Dapol LMS Jinty and Sentinel, which would be my motive power 'pool', and the Minerva Peckett and Victory locos would be welcome additions (if/when future finances permit) for a small layout that combines some industrial / freight ops. I like the look of your layout a lot, and what especially appeals is how with 0 the track just looks so right, especially something quite minimal. With 00 I am tempted to cram too much in! 

 

cheers,

 

Keith

 

Thanks for that.  Track looks right because it is very close to correct gauge (scales to 4' 6").

 

I have the two locos you mention.  The Sentinel will benefit from a stay alive.

 

My friend is a GWR guy so he has a number of those locos.  No shortage of motive power.

 

Another friend is a North British nut.  I just took possession of a Connoisseur loco kit to build for him.

 

I just got the Dapol B4 and ran it for the first time yesterday - what a delight!

 

I'm hoping to build a micro layout shortly, and plan to use the Sentinel, B4 and Terrier for that.

 

John

[DCB]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Not Flying Scotsman but I'll just leave this here....

 

The idea that these models don't work or can't pull the skin off a rice pudding is pure nonsense. 

Jason

Very impressive layout.   I like the Brass A4  in the second video, 45 vans  very impressive,  But our MN was the last but one loco father in law bought and I remember saying "We shouldn't have to do this on a brand new loco." when testing it band new out of the box. I think it was back to back. I still don't like  the way it runs on with the power off, which is probably why its in

the display cabinet and a 1961 Winston Churchill is pulling trains The previous loco, a Dapol Mogul managed 18" and fell on its side at the first set of points and would not stay on the rails until the leading wheels were initially changed and later reprofiled on the lathe which cured it, the Hornby 28XX guard irons fouled point work and had to be trimmed,

 

58 minutes ago, tractionman said:

 

part of my problem is my accumulation of 00 stock has spiralled over the past decade or so, and I have lost my focus on era etc, so the attraction of 0 for me is that it gives me a smaller, narrower focus (ie 1930s LMS), and Dapol RTR has helped provide some limited motive power, and a few wagons... but my nagging question is, will this be enough to satisfy my modelling/running desires!

 

If you do change scale then expect to make a severe loss on the value of your collection. 

I am disposing of surplus stock Father in Law acquired in 70 years of modelling as we speak, I am keeping most of his stock but it's a lot of work.   Maybe one of the dealers who buy collections would be the best way to go, lower returns but one hell of a lot less time and hassle.  I would not expect to get more than 45% of the new cost of your stock as a realistic ball park,  Maybe 60% gross selling individually on eBay (watch the fees) but the time and  effort becomes a hobby in itself. 

Points are just about worthless when they have been ballasted .  Its going to be a severe financial hit

[tractionman]

4 minutes ago, DCB said:

 

If you do change scale then expect to make a severe loss on the value of your collection. 

 

 

True, but if I do sell then it's cash in the bank, and besides what's been spent is spent. If I do look to downsize the 00 stock I'll probably do it in stages, the SR stuff I have is in fact already boxed up, in a kind of 'purgatory', while I mull this over some more, what I really do not want to do is sell the 00 stuff now, and then, say in ten years time, think 'why on earth did I do that' as I really now want to build that 1930s Southern layout, 1950s South Wales colliery layout, the 1920s LNER branchline etc etc! I am sure I am not alone in being troubled by this same quandary.

 

 

[brossard]

DCB is quite right.  If you want to move your 00 stock it will have to be priced accordingly.  People aren't going to pay retail for second hand, so, in my case, the starting point was roughly 50%.  As you say, any money made on the sale is money in the bank.

 

John

[tractionman]

2 minutes ago, brossard said:

DCB is quite right.  If you want to move your 00 stock it will have to be priced accordingly.  People aren't going to pay retail for second hand, so, in my case, the starting point was roughly 50%.  As you say, any money made on the sale is money in the bank.

 

John

 

I was reckoning about 30% of the original price paid, but I have yet to bite the bullet!

[Phil Parker]

19 hours ago, Dungrange said:

However, I'm a member of a model railway club, and if I did fancy dipping my toes into O Gauge, then I could do that by just buying a locomotive and running it on the club's O gauge layout, without scrapping my own home layout (assuming I ever get it built), which will be 00.  If you're not sure about the switch, would joining a model railway club help?

 

That's how the L&WMRS O gauge layout started. A group of us were interested enough to build a loco and train each and that was enough for a small shunting layout. This attracted more O gauge modellers, who have now built a proper roundy-roundy.

[Dungrange]

34 minutes ago, tractionman said:

I was reckoning about 30% of the original price paid, but I have yet to bite the bullet!

 

If you're planning to sell as a job lot, I'd agree that's probably about what you'll get.  If you want more, I suspect you need to sell each model individually and obviously they need to be well described if selling online.  It then becomes more work to get back a greater value.

[Dungrange]

14 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

That's how the L&WMRS O gauge layout started. A group of us were interested enough to build a loco and train each and that was enough for a small shunting layout. This attracted more O gauge modellers, who have now built a proper roundy-roundy.

 

Our club's going the other way, with what appears to be a declining interest in O gauge, but we have an O gauge layout and a couple of primarily 4mm modellers have recently turned up at the club with an O gauge locomotive, which they claimed was 'a good price'.  I don't think either of them plan to switch scales, but want something to run when our O gauge layout is up.

[brossard]

20 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

If you're planning to sell as a job lot, I'd agree that's probably about what you'll get.  If you want more, I suspect you need to sell each model individually and obviously they need to be well described if selling online.  It then becomes more work to get back a greater value.

 

If you have to post the stock to buyers, there are other costs, like boxes and bubble wrap.  I buy enough from the likes of Hatton's to have/had quite a lot of boxes and bubbly stuff.  Then there is postage of course.  A lot of work packing and posting.

 

John

[DevilsAdvocate]

2 hours ago, DCB said:

If you do change scale then expect to make a severe loss on the value of your collection. 

Yep, agreed this is also a major factor to consider.

I have estimated I have somewhere in the region of  4 to £5000  worth of stock due to the rarity of some, sound fitted in most, and being made bespoke like the Class 20’s I’ve changed the numbers on.

I paid over £1000 for the Hornby West Country purple Queen Elizabeth II,  Flying Scotsman, & Sir Nigel Gresley alone.

If scales are changed, none of the 27 loco’s I have will have any use, unless they are kept for collection .

 

The loss on these will be enough to reduce you to tears, but this is the price to be paid if a change is undertaken 

 

Shop owners will give the minimum they can get away with, that’s obvious. They have got to sell them on, and still make it worth their while, so you can’t blame them

E Bay is the kiddie for selling, but a 12% selling fee plus their charges on top hits hard

I would estimate that I wouldn’t get £3000 for the lot, perhaps more if the 3 steam loco’s were included.

 

I have been up to the layout this afternoon, and asked my good lady wife what her opinion was regarding this dilemma I’ve created for myself

She was stunned and said I must be crazy to get rid of it all. 
 

Are women ever wrong ??

 

Thats a massive thread on it’s own, don’t answer that question, but she can’t believe I’ve even contemplated it

She attends many swap meets, exhibitions with me, her speciality is the small detail bits for scenery, so she’s well aware of how much money has been spent, and although the decision will be mine of course, she can’t believe I’m even contemplating it.

 

I know she is right, but I still have the desire to up the grade.

 

The Johnsters lengthy reply on page 1 sticks in my mind

This is the price you pay for not thinking through thoroughly what you want, and not planning correctly 

Also, not being satisfied with what you’ve got

He’s bang on and gets great satisfaction with his own layout 

This is how it should be and good luck to you mate

 

The thread has turned out to be extremely useful, thank you to you all and please keep the replies coming, they’re all welcome and it’s fascinating reading 

 

Cheers all

[tractionman]

19 minutes ago, DevilsAdvocate said:

 

The Johnsters lengthy reply on page 1 sticks in my mind

This is the price you pay for not thinking through thoroughly what you want, and not planning correctly 

Also, not being satisfied with what you’ve got

He’s bang on and gets great satisfaction with his own layout 

This is how it should be and good luck to you mate

 

 

seconded, I admire @The Johnsterphilosophy to sticking to one location, one period, one theme, I am too much of a butterfly/magpie and too easily distracted...

[brossard]

53 minutes ago, DevilsAdvocate said:

Yep, agreed this is also a major factor to consider.

I have estimated I have somewhere in the region of  4 to £5000  worth of stock due to the rarity of some, sound fitted in most, and being made bespoke like the Class 20’s I’ve changed the numbers on.

I paid over £1000 for the Hornby West Country purple Queen Elizabeth II,  Flying Scotsman, & Sir Nigel Gresley alone.

If scales are changed, none of the 27 loco’s I have will have any use, unless they are kept for collection .

 

The loss on these will be enough to reduce you to tears, but this is the price to be paid if a change is undertaken 

 

Shop owners will give the minimum they can get away with, that’s obvious. They have got to sell them on, and still make it worth their while, so you can’t blame them

E Bay is the kiddie for selling, but a 12% selling fee plus their charges on top hits hard

I would estimate that I wouldn’t get £3000 for the lot, perhaps more if the 3 steam loco’s were included.

 

I have been up to the layout this afternoon, and asked my good lady wife what her opinion was regarding this dilemma I’ve created for myself

She was stunned and said I must be crazy to get rid of it all. 
 

Are women ever wrong ??

 

Thats a massive thread on it’s own, don’t answer that question, but she can’t believe I’ve even contemplated it

She attends many swap meets, exhibitions with me, her speciality is the small detail bits for scenery, so she’s well aware of how much money has been spent, and although the decision will be mine of course, she can’t believe I’m even contemplating it.

 

I know she is right, but I still have the desire to up the grade.

 

The Johnsters lengthy reply on page 1 sticks in my mind

This is the price you pay for not thinking through thoroughly what you want, and not planning correctly 

Also, not being satisfied with what you’ve got

He’s bang on and gets great satisfaction with his own layout 

This is how it should be and good luck to you mate

 

The thread has turned out to be extremely useful, thank you to you all and please keep the replies coming, they’re all welcome and it’s fascinating reading 

 

Cheers all

 

There's no law that says you have to sell your 00 stock.  Perhaps the special models that you mention should be held onto since you probably wouldn't realize but a fraction of their worth.

 

Bog standard stuff could be flogged at shows/swapmeets.

 

I notice Hatton's prices for some second hand (I check the 0 gauge listing) are pretty silly, being, in many cases, not much less than retail.  I don't know what they give to folk for their stuff, but my guess is not much.

 

John

[DCB]

If you want a ball park valuation on individual items go on eBay  put the item description in, select Auctions, then select the advanced tab over to the right and scroll down to number of bids.  Tick 1 for min bids and leave the max blank.  scroll on down and search.   Today a Platinum Jubilee WC has 7 bids for £285 with over 6 days to go.  On the Buy it Now tab there is one for £500 (and one for £1200)   If you watch the £285 one for a week you will see what it sells for but  today the value is £275, because that is what the under bidder is prepared to pay today.    Ignore the buy it now "Value" they are meaningless as a guide to value

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, tractionman said:

 

seconded, I admire @The Johnsterphilosophy to sticking to one location, one period, one theme, I am too much of a butterfly/magpie and too easily distracted...

 

I'm not saying that this is the one and only proper way to go about planning, building, and using a model railway, but I would say that a magpie approach will cost you a lot of money and time, and it is obviously important to those with bills to pay and committments to honour that these are not limitless and must be carefully budgeted to get the best out of them.  If you have time, cash, and space for multiple layouts portraying different periods and places, in different scales and disciplines, I am not qualified to advise you against it and several regular contributors here do just this, as is apparent from their sign-off info. 

 

It wouldn't be for me; I couldn't put the time or effort in and would get confused between layouts.  The single layout single scale single discipline works for me, and coinicidentally suits my income and the space I have available, win-win.  But it does need a bit of discipline in your thought processes before work on the layout is begun.  I decided many years ago that what I wanted to model was BR period WR in the South Wales Valleys, initially in the 1958-65 timeframe to include green diesels and dmus, but for this layout I have specified 1948-58 in order to indulge myself in the variety offered by the presence of wartime austerity and 1945-7 GWR, BR changeover first phase Jan-end May 1948, second phase June '48-September '49, and the unicycling lion period, with eighteen months of maroon coaches.  Once those decisions were made, one of them over forty years ago, everything else slotted into place without much thought put to it at all.  I would never change this genre.  In fact it stems from my dissatisfaction with the Black Princess set I had when I was six, which failed to contain trains that I'd seen at Cardiff General on Saturday mornings and had insanely sharp curves (and I was familiar with docks railways so knew what sharp curves were).

 

My modelling career has been an attempt to achieve reasonable detail, to scale and despite my hamfistedness and limited modelling ability, with good running and slow speed control & smooth stops and starts, despite the fact that I cannot afford DCC (I'm only a poor pensioner...).  Took a while, but my running is pretty good these days with DC and RTR to current standards, insulfrog turnouts to simplify the wiring, and Gaugemaster controls.  Not perfect but I sort of feel I'm getting there.

 

But it it important to stress that I do not claim to hold the key to the magic box, and that while this approach works well for me, it may well not work at all for other people with different requirements from and intentions for the hobby.  There's no 'I'm right you're wrong' here, we are what we are and must find individual solutions that suit us as indivuals.  Early stage planning in depth is a good way to achieve this!

 

And if you want an example of magpie/butterfly thinking, I refer you to my miserably disorganised and 'variously successful' approach to providing NCB locos for my colliery, a very scattergun approach with a lot of false starts and wastefulness.  Perhaps the colliery is where that side of my inner modeller is revealed, while all on the WR branch is discipline and restraint, Tondu allocations only please...

 

Dimbath Deep Navigation no.2 (so named to suggest that there is a no.1 just around the corner, out of sight) currently has eight locos in various states of dissassembly or chassis building, but needs only two.  That is not a disciplined approach!

Edited August 1, 2023 by The Johnster

[Kaput]

Late last year I sold all my N gauge collection to focus on OO.

 

I've pretty much regretted it ever since and its mainly because lots of the stuff just isn't obtainable anymore without getting lucky on eBay.

 

So my advice is think very very carefully about the selling up your current collection part of changing scale.

[The Johnster]

Very few of my RTR models are supplied numbered or painted in the correct livery to represent them during their allocation to Tondu, with the result that almost all have been renumbered by me and some have been repainted.  Those that do not have details that I can add to them as supplied now have them (no smoking labels in windows, removed topfeeds and associated plumbing on Baccy panniers, for example).  They are nearly all models that I have put an input of my own to, which means two things.  One, they are my children, and are not for sale, and two, I have harmed their resale value by altering them, in fact by taking them out of their boxes and using them to some extent.  I occasionally give models away but do not sell them.  When I buy them, I do so on the basis that I have exchanged money for a model that will give me enjoyment for the rest of either my life or the model's, whichever comes first, and that money is gone forever; I will not attempt to recoup it by selling the model on.  It's part of playing the long game, which is relevant to the thought processes I've been talking about. 

 

Remember, a loco is for life, not just for xmas...  buy 'em, use 'em, keep 'em, but don't sell them, that's not what they're for.  If you wear them out, don't bin 'em, they have earned a retirement as shed lurkers or shelf queens.

 

On one of the shelves in my living room is a Hornby Dublo 3-rail BR 4MT 2-6-4T.  It is a little 'play worn' but in reasonable nick considering, and had spent many years in a box in an attic.  It was given me by my mate Colin up the pub's missis, who knows I'm 'into that sort of thing', and it's overscale HD lining, faded paint, patina of age and the odd scratch tell a story of a previous life which I find more attractive in it's role as an ornament than if I'd fully restored it to 'as new' condition.  I like it as it is, it was a kind and thoughtful gift, which is worth more to me than the £50 or so I'd get for it on the Bay, assuming it runs, or the £80 or so I'd get for it if I restored it.  I'm not in the hobby to sell things, I'm in it for the enjoyment I get out of it, and don't have time to mess about with eBay.  I'm not interested in the money, I'm interested in the trains.

 

I may of course be a little odd, but that doesn't bother me at all!

Edited August 1, 2023 by The Johnster

[DevilsAdvocate]

10 hours ago, Kaput said:

Late last year I sold all my N gauge collection to focus on OO.

 

I've pretty much regretted it ever since and its mainly because lots of the stuff just isn't obtainable anymore without getting lucky on eBay.

 

So my advice is think very very carefully about the selling up your current collection part of changing scale.

 

Invaluable advice, and that does worry me about stepping up

 

The other scenario that i would have, is that the revenue obtained from the sale of present stock would need to fund the new project.

There aren't many of us that can just waltz into a model shop and fork out £450 minimum for one loco unless you're Rod Stewart or Pete Waterman of course.

 

Moving over a tangent slightly ( but still keeping on the changing around of things )  i want to quote my brother in law when he said to me once regarding my present layout :-

 

'' Yes it's really good, but what happens when you get fed up of looking at the same thing every day ? ''

 

Before you all boil over at this comment, he's a keen angler, and i asked him the point of getting up at 4am, sitting by a pond for hours on end in all weathers, to chuck a fish back into the water you've sat for hours to drag out ?  He agreed when you put it that way ............................

 

Have any of you changed things around because you were fed up of seeing the same thing every day ?

 

Also,it is stated regularly, that a layout is never completed. Or is it ?

If you have in particular a small ( ish ) layout, you can't go on year in year out building it. There will come a time when you can't go much, if any furthur.

I do know modellers in fact, that work on layouts until in their opinion they can't do much more to it, and they then clear the decks and start again.

 

Their justification for this is that the actual building up of the layout is what they enjoy most about the hobby, not the running round of the trains

 

Fair enough.... That's what floats their boat, who am i to question their desires ?

 

The reason for this slight move over from the original question, is that there are two more reasons why someone may want complete change

 

For me personally though the ever wise Johnster is correct yet again when he rightly states you need to treasure what you've created and enjoy it.

Also especially the price of these things nowadays, enjoy the loco's you add to it, get great pleasure out of them and not be looking for the next fix, the get rid of a loco to fund another.

 

I've still got that urge to change though  : )

 

Guilty as charged on all counts !

 

Cheers again

John

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Speaking as one who finds pretty much all railways interesting in some way or another, and pretty much all toy and model trains likewise, so has a tendency to want to explore multiple facets/themes/eras/gauges/scales/ materials etc, I do find that some things become “finished”. That might be an actual layout, in that I have built to a reasonable standard of completion several, none particularly big, over the years, or it might be a particular theme in books, rolling stock and locomotives built or bought, or whatever, but whatever it is, it comes to an end, is finished in some sense, when I’ve explored that bit of territory to my satisfaction. 

 

Then, I sort of move on to another bit of territory, and all the “shall I sell, give away to charity, keep in some never-opened cupboard?” thing arises. So, that the answer to your brother in law: when I get tired of looking at the same thing, I shall hit the same dilemma as now.

 

I guess the trick is to try not to get tired of it, but I’ve never cracked that one, “next thing” always becomes interesting.

 

If I were you, I’d bite the bullet, flog  most of your 00, keeping the real gems for now, and take the plunge into 0, because of you don’t it’ll always be nagging at the back of your mind. You don’t need to spend £450 on a loco, because the Dapol of 08 is an absolutely brilliant model that comes in under £200. If you are into very modern era (post privatisation), you can still find excuses to use one, shunting a wagon works or something.

 

Fishing? One of my brothers is deeply into it, and when we were kids I used sometimes to go with him. But guess what? After about an hour, I’d be off rambling about the place exploring, rather than sitting still.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Nearholmer

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, DevilsAdvocate said:

Invaluable advice, and that does worry me about stepping up

 

The other scenario that i would have, is that the revenue obtained from the sale of present stock would need to fund the new project.

Have you thought about building a very small diorama or micro layout, or even just a wagon kit, in 0 first to see how you get on and if you like it? Hopefully not too expensive and wouldn’t take up too much space, but would allow you to try things out and get a feel for the new scale before you commit to too much.

[brossard]

6 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Have you thought about building a very small diorama or micro layout, or even just a wagon kit, in 0 first to see how you get on and if you like it? Hopefully not too expensive and wouldn’t take up too much space, but would allow you to try things out and get a feel for the new scale before you commit to too much.

 

Good advice.  Scalescenes do a couple of boxfile kits that can be blown up to 7mm and would make a good micro layout.  I have started planning for a Canal Dock themed layout:

 

I have allowed it to lapse because it seems we are continuously getting the big layout ready for the next show so no chance to think about this layout.

 

Another Scalescenes kit that I think has promise is this:

 

https://scalescenes.com/product/ly01-industrial-boxfile-layout/

 

John

[Phil Parker]

9 minutes ago, brossard said:

Good advice.  Scalescenes do a couple of boxfile kits that can be blown up to 7mm and would make a good micro layout.  I have started planning for a Canal Dock themed layout:

 

Spotted at Stratford-on-Avon show this year:

 

[brossard]

Lovely Phil, thanks.  Very inspiring.  I hope to get mine restarted in the next few weeks after the next show (and last for a while I hope).  One of the reasons to do a micro is that I am getting too old and creaky to lug the big layout around (OK I do have help), so something I can get in just one car will be welcome.

 

John

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, brossard said:

Lovely Phil, thanks.  Very inspiring.  I hope to get mine restarted in the next few weeks after the next show (and last for a while I hope).  One of the reasons to do a micro is that I am getting too old and creaky to lug the big layout around (OK I do have help), so something I can get in just one car will be welcome.

 

John

There is another advantage in that if you become a serial micro layout/diorama builder each one is relatively cheap, requires less stock and takes up less space so you can have a few different ones, exploring different themes, eras etc. However, in some ways it does still work better if you usually use the same scale/gauge as track, figures and scenic items are ‘in stock’/left over from previous projects and control equipment and stock can often be used across more than one layout. E.g. I usually do 009, so most of my layouts use that (or 00/H0 for static dioramas). Occasionally I’ve done other scales but it either has to be something really good where it’s worth spending the money (I did a layout in 1:12 scale, with T gauge representing a model train, which ended up being quite expensive but was a concept I’d always wanted to do) or something that can be done very cheaply (like my attempts at 1:32 scale narrow/minimum gauge, either using a cheapo plastic train set of roughly 12.5mm gauge for 15”, or a tiny bit with some old 00 stuff (for 20” or 21”) which I may continue in future).

[brossard]

1 minute ago, 009 micro modeller said:

There is another advantage in that if you become a serial micro layout/diorama builder each one is relatively cheap, requires less stock and takes up less space so you can have a few different ones, exploring different themes, eras etc. However, in some ways it does still work better if you usually use the same scale/gauge as track, figures and scenic items are ‘in stock’/left over from previous projects and control equipment and stock can often be used across more than one layout. E.g. I usually do 009, so most of my layouts use that (or 00/H0 for static dioramas). Occasionally I’ve done other scales but it either has to be something really good where it’s worth spending the money (I did a layout in 1:12 scale, with T gauge representing a model train, which ended up being quite expensive but was a concept I’d always wanted to do) or something that can be done very cheaply (like my attempts at 1:32 scale narrow/minimum gauge, either using a cheapo plastic train set of roughly 12.5mm gauge for 15”, or a tiny bit with some old 00 stuff (for 20” or 21”) which I may continue in future).

 

Well, I did buy the Scalescenes industrial kit so that's something for a future project.  I also like doing Scalescenes buildings anyway.

 

John

[F-UnitMad]

8 hours ago, DevilsAdvocate said:

There aren't many of us that can just waltz into a model shop and fork out £450 minimum for one loco unless you're Rod Stewart or Pete Waterman of course.

Sorry but I'm sensing some contradiction here. One of your concerns about O Scale is the cost of locos in particular, but you've posted about paying about £1000 for 3 OO steam locos, and you have a fleet of umpty-nine (sorry I forget the exact number) identical-bar-the-numbers OO Class 20s..... you're clearly not that averse to spending your hard-earned on locos. Is the perceived issue rather that for the same money you would get less locos in O, maybe? 

I just find the 'too expensive' argument a bit confusing given what you've already posted.