Coach Gangway outer doors - usage on BR(SR) diagrams

[Right Away]

Would anyone know of any BR official instruction regarding the usage/fitting of outer gangway doors to coaches? At a guess, I would assume it would depend on the diagram(s) worked and the amount of attaching/detaching involved.

 

I would be particularly interested if the outer gangway doors were used on the 2 sets (Maunsell and Bullied) as operated in the West of England. I can only surmise this would be quite a rarity as these sets would often become part of a multi-portioned consist of a long distance service with catering facilities.

Attached are a couple of scanned photos where the doors are absent; the top taken at Meldon Viaduct and the bottom at Honiton Tunnel.

 

 

 

 

[cctransuk]

18 minutes ago, Right Away said:

Would anyone know of any BR official instruction regarding the usage/fitting of outer gangway doors to coaches? At a guess, I would assume it would depend on the diagram(s) worked and the amount of attaching/detaching involved.

 

I would be particularly interested if the outer gangway doors were used on the 2 sets (Maunsell and Bullied) as operated in the West of England. I can only surmise this would be quite a rarity as these sets would often become part of a multi-portioned consist of a long distance service with catering facilities.

Attached are a couple of scanned photos where the doors are absent; the top taken at Meldon Viaduct and the bottom at Honiton Tunnel.

 

 

 

 

 

From photos, there often seemed to be a few propped up against platform lamp-posts at Padstow and Wadebridge.

 

CJI.

[Wickham Green too]

Can't find the reference but I think the gangway doors were deemed to be weather-tight so covers weren't normally required ....... the Southern, of course, had no water troughs so a deluge from below wasn't a hazard. 

[The Stationmaster]

Always bestto ansewer a question with a couple of questions - what trains and which coaches, and when, i.e before of after October 1960.  However I need to add a rider that the standard SR Instructions in respect of Gangway Shields might have changed earlier (than 1960) as was the case on the WR.

 

So before ging through all of that could you please specify a date range otherwise there's going to be a major post a lot of which might not be relevant to the when and which coaches of your question.  incidentally the original SR Instructions were different in respect of trains runnin g onto lines owned by other companies.

[Right Away]

Thanks, Mike. The time frame would be between 1950 and 1964, quite a span! Services would be those between Exeter Central and Ilfracombe, Plymouth, Padstow and Bude.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Right Away
Correction

[The Stationmaster]

Good.  Now judging by what happened on the Wr I suspect there might have neen some changes from the oiginal SR Instrctions - which was quite complex.  The problem I have is that I can't reliaL;y date when teh Instruction altered on the WR exceot to say that the change was definitely made some time between 1954 and July 1956 (at which time afurther minr change took place.

 

As I read the revision made between those datees I think it os reasonable to assume that it was anational change so would have invclluded teh SR.  The only question then - which I can't answer because I have no information to enable me to do so is what changes, if any were made to the original SR 1934 Instructions prior the one made at some time between 1954 and 1956.  From the information I do have it appears that the Instructions did not change between 1934 and 1937.

 

1934 Instructions

All Unconnected gangways  of corridor vehicles  at the extreme ends of trains working to or over any other mainline company to be protected by a gangway shield

 

D For all trains working within the southern Railway the following applied -

1.Coaches No.s2362, 2363,3714, 37155630, 5631 5632, and 5633 are fitted with metal roller shutters at each end.  Coaches3680 &6659 are fitted with steel roller shutters at one end.

Provided the shutters are brought into use no other shield is necessary

2. The end gangway doors of all new corridor steam stock will, dating from July 1933, be faced with metal and  and ftted witha special fastening on the outside.  Certain corridor coaches built prior to July 1933 will be similarly fitted as they pass through shops.

When these doors are in use and provided they are securely fastened on the outside no other shield is necessary.

3. In the case of the following vehicles there is a risk of gangway shields if fitted on adjacent gangways rubbing off when passing over a curve and gangway shields must not be provided :-

a. On adjacent Pullman gangwayed vehicles when an automatic coupling is NOT  in use

b. On a Pullman gangway adjacent to  vehicle with a Standard gangway with an adaptor fitted. 

c On a vehicle with a Standard gangway extended and fitted with adaptor clips adjacent to a.vehicle with a standard gangway not extended.

In all the above situation gangway doors must be securel fastened

This Instructions means that gangway adaptors can be fitted on adjacent vehicles with standard gangways that are not extended and not fitted witha adaptor clip.

4. All other unconnected gangways other than those listed above, must be protected by means ofa gangway shield.

 

So what that means is that there could be vehicles carrying gangway shields formed within - and not just at the ends of, a train.

 

The reference to roller shutter doorsbut no mention of vehcle numbers was still in place from October 1960 on the SR South western Division.

 

With one minor exception (explained below) the national Instruction which was published on the WR between 1954 and 1956 and which I am presuming also applied on the SR was as follows:-

 

1 Complete Buckeye coupled trains  - Shields must be placed on the front of the leading vehicle and the rear of the rearmost vehicle (however I would place good money that the SR published an exception for vehicles with steel faced gangway doors although only roller shutter fitted vehicles are mentioned in the 1960 South Western Division Instruction.  In fact that exception was published nationally in the late s ummer of 1971)

2. Trains composed partly of gangwayed stock .  A shield must be placed on the front and rear ends of each portion of gangwayed stock.  (i.e exactly the same as the earlier SR Instruction but without the exceptions it contained.

3. Mixed Buckeye and screw coupled vehicles when owing to the absence of adaptors it is not possible for the gangway connection to be made gangway adaptors shields must be placed on the adjacent ends of the vehicles.

4. Trains composed of Buckeye and screw coupled Post Office vehicles when a buckeye coupling fitted vehicle is marshalled next to a PO vehicle.  The shield on the buckeye fitted vehicle must be removed and the door securely locked (which basically means both lock it and secure the French pin on the outside of the door).  Gangway adap shield to be fitted on the PO vehicle.

There were further Instructions relating to gangways of vehicles coupled to engines with corridor tenders.

 

Phew! - best I can do, Hope it helps.

 

The only difference between this 1960 - nationally applicable Instruction and the mid 1950s one published by teh Wr was the lack of a reference to the use of a special (solid plywood) gangway shield on the last vehicle of the main train coupled immed iately ahead of a slip coach.v

Edited August 13, 2023 by The Stationmaster
Typos plius correct 2 word transpositions

[Grovenor]

Quote

3. Mixed Buckeye and screw coupled vehicles when owing to teh absence of adaptorsit is not possible for the gangway connection to be made gangway adaptors must be placed on the adjacent ends of the vehicles.

How can one fit adapters if there are none available? Are shields supposed to be fitted somewhere?

[Wickham Green too]

22 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

... Coaches No.s2362, 2363,3714, 37155630, 5631 5632, and 5633 are fitted with metal roller shutters at each end.  Coaches3680 &6659 are fitted with steel roller shutters at one end....

That's the whole of Set 220 equipped at both ends ( unnecessary if the set was operationally indivisible ) one end of one Brake Third of Set 479 and one end of a loose Brake Composite !

[Wickham Green too]

9 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

How can one fit adapters if there are none available? Are shields supposed to be fitted somewhere?

With all that to copy, Mike's mis-typed that bit - it should read "when owing to the absence of adaptors it is not possible for the gangway connection to be made Gangway shields must not be placed on the adjacent ends of the vehicles." ( General Appendix, 1960 )

Edited August 12, 2023 by Wickham Green too

[IWCR]

A  primary  need  for  a  gangway  shield  in  steam  days  was  to  prevent  the  risk  of  a  cinder  getting  lodged  in  an  open  gangway  end  with  resultant  fire  risk,  this  was  also  the  reason  for  the  flexible  cover  over  the  top  of  the  bellows,  this  prevents  cinders  lodging  in  the  bellows  folds.

 

Pete

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Grovenor said:

How can one fit adapters if there are none available? Are shields supposed to be fitted somewhere?

Sorry - typing error - after spending well over an hour digging out all that lot from four different original documents plus various amendments to two of them and then getting it down I was beginning to flag a little.  Duly corrected now thanks

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, IWCR said:

A  primary  need  for  a  gangway  shield  in  steam  days  was  to  prevent  the  risk  of  a  cinder  getting  lodged  in  an  open  gangway  end  with  resultant  fire  risk,  this  was  also  the  reason  for  the  flexible  cover  over  the  top  of  the  bellows,  this  prevents  cinders  lodging  in  the  bellows  folds.

 

Pete

Interestingly the SR Instructions refers only to the presence of water troughs as the reason for providing shields on the ends of trains that would run onto the lines of any of the other Big Four companies.

 

As folding gangway shields (in some cases??)  consisted of cloth on a timber frame I don't think they would have been particularly fireproof.  As, for example, in this photo of mine taken in 1963 showing a gangway shield adjacent to an engine smokebox.   And it had just travelled the last 5 miles of its journey next to that smokebox due to the engine running tender first.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[Wickham Green too]

Probably safer that way round as any glowing embers should be thrown clear and not have a chance to fall back before, perhaps, the middle of the coach.

[Halvarras]

6 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Sorry - typing error - after spending well over an hour digging out all that lot from four different original documents plus various amendments to two of them and then getting it down I was beginning to flag a little.  Duly corrected now thanks

 

I'm sure we all appreciate your dedication to expanding railway knowledge on here Mike, these things happen when ploughing through a mass of stuff but you never fail to be a mine of information on...........well, just about everything!

This subject is of no particular relevance to myself but I read it anyway and now know that end steel roller shutters were fitted to a small number of British Railway coaches (and even which ones) so that's something I'll know when I go to bed tonight that I didn't know when I got up this morning - thanks very much 👍!

Now I'm curious to see exactly how the equipment was fitted, so have to find a photo.....

[The Stationmaster]

13 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

 

I'm sure we all appreciate your dedication to expanding railway knowledge on here Mike, these things happen when ploughing through a mass of stuff but you never fail to be a mine of information on...........well, just about everything!

This subject is of no particular relevance to myself but I read it anyway and now know that end steel roller shutters were fitted to a small number of British Railway coaches (and even which ones) so that's something I'll know when I go to bed tonight that I didn't know when I got up this morning - thanks very much 👍!

Now I'm curious to see exactly how the equipment was fitted, so have to find a photo.....

Thanks for that.  You share my surprise when it comes to  the steel roller shutter end doors as I too had never come across that before - which might in turn betray just how much of the SR 1934 Appendixes I haven't read previously.

 

I'm fortunate in having  - over the years and sometimes at a price - been able to assemble a reasonable collection of original source material although it is a long way short of being exhaustive, even for the Western (except in one or two specialist areas) And I do endeavour to check. stuff before I post it although typos don't always help the reader.  If I don't know or can't confirm information from primary sources I say so but where I quote dates, even ifca little vague or qualified (as here), they are taken from original sources, never secondary sources (unless I say they're from a secondary source).

[Right Away]

On 12/08/2023 at 18:59, The Stationmaster said:

Good.  Now judging by what happened on the Wr I suspect there might have neen some changes from the oiginal SR Instrctions - which was quite complex.  The problem I have is that I can't reliaL;y date when teh Instruction altered on the WR exceot to say that the change was definitely made some time between 1954 and July 1956 (at which time afurther minr change took place.

 

As I read the revision made between those datees I think it os reasonable to assume that it was anational change so would have invclluded teh SR.  The only question then - which I can't answer because I have no information to enable me to do so is what changes, if any were made to the original SR 1934 Instructions prior the one made at some time between 1954 and 1956.  From the information I do have it appears that the Instructions did not change between 1934 and 1937.

 

1934 Instructions

All Unconnected gangways  of corridor vehicles  at the extreme ends of trains working to or over any other mainline company to be protected by a gangway shield

 

D For all trains working within the southern Railway the following applied -

1.Coaches No.s2362, 2363,3714, 37155630, 5631 5632, and 5633 are fitted with metal roller shutters at each end.  Coaches3680 &6659 are fitted with steel roller shutters at one end.

Provided the shutters are brought into use no other shield is necessary

2. The end gangway doors of all new corridor steam stock will, dating from July 1933, be faced with metal and  and ftted witha special fastening on the outside.  Certain corridor coaches built prior to July 1933 will be similarly fitted as they pass through shops.

When these doors are in use and provided they are securely fastened on the outside no other shield is necessary.

3. In the case of the following vehicles there is a risk of gangway shields if fitted on adjacent gangways rubbing off when passing over a curve and gangway shields must not be provided :-

a. On adjacent Pullman gangwayed vehicles when an automatic coupling is NOT  in use

b. On a Pullman gangway adjacent to  vehicle with a Standard gangway with an adaptor fitted. 

c On a vehicle with a Standard gangway extended and fitted with adaptor clips adjacent to a.vehicle with a standard gangway not extended.

In all the above situation gangway doors must be securel fastened

This Instructions means that gangway adaptors can be fitted on adjacent vehicles with standard gangways that are not extended and not fitted witha adaptor clip.

4. All other unconnected gangways other than those listed above, must be protected by means ofa gangway shield.

 

So what that means is that there could be vehicles carrying gangway shields formed within - and not just at the ends of, a train.

 

The reference to roller shutter doorsbut no mention of vehcle numbers was still in place from October 1960 on the SR South western Division.

 

With one minor exception (explained below) the national Instruction which was published on the WR between 1954 and 1956 and which I am presuming also applied on the SR was as follows:-

 

1 Complete Buckeye coupled trains  - Shields must be placed on the front of the leading vehicle and the rear of the rearmost vehicle (however I would place good money that the SR published an exception for vehicles with steel faced gangway doors although only roller shutter fitted vehicles are mentioned in the 1960 South Western Division Instruction.  In fact that exception was published nationally in the late s ummer of 1971)

2. Trains composed partly of gangwayed stock .  A shield must be placed on the front and rear ends of each portion of gangwayed stock.  (i.e exactly the same as the earlier SR Instruction but without the exceptions it contained.

3. Mixed Buckeye and screw coupled vehicles when owing to the absence of adaptors it is not possible for the gangway connection to be made gangway adaptors shields must be placed on the adjacent ends of the vehicles.

4. Trains composed of Buckeye and screw coupled Post Office vehicles when a buckeye coupling fitted vehicle is marshalled next to a PO vehicle.  The shield on the buckeye fitted vehicle must be removed and the door securely locked (which basically means both lock it and secure the French pin on the outside of the door).  Gangway adap shield to be fitted on the PO vehicle.

There were further Instructions relating to gangways of vehicles coupled to engines with corridor tenders.

 

Phew! - best I can do, Hope it helps.

 

The only difference between this 1960 - nationally applicable Instruction and the mid 1950s one published by teh Wr was the lack of a reference to the use of a special (solid plywood) gangway shield on the last vehicle of the main train coupled immed iately ahead of a slip coach.v

Thanks Mike. That must’ve taken some digging.