Bullied coach restriction on other regions

[Right Away]

Another coach poser.

I read somewhere of an instruction which restricted the use of Bullied coaches on through trains to other regions which was lifted in 1954.

Can anyone shed some information as to the reason for the restriction on these vehicles and what was required to eventually ease it.

Thanks

[Wickham Green too]

Dimensionally they were identical to the BR Mk1 which were becoming numerous by 1954 - but both types were longer than the majority of what went before so removal of any 'blanket ban' might have had to wait 'til '54 while every line on the network had been assessed ??!?

[russ p]

23 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Dimensionally they were identical to the BR Mk1 which were becoming numerous by 1954 - but both types were longer than the majority of what went before so removal of any 'blanket ban' might have had to wait 'til '54 while every line on the network had been assessed ??!?

 

I was thinking that. Presumably some clearance works must have taken place to give mk1s access to most of the network 

[bécasse]

Could the restriction have related to their coupling and gangway arrangements. They were by no means alone in using buckeye couplings and Pullman gangways, of course, but it has to be remembered that two out of the four post-grouping companies remained very backward in that respect.

[Aire Head]

14 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Could the restriction have related to their coupling and gangway arrangements. They were by no means alone in using buckeye couplings and Pullman gangways, of course, but it has to be remembered that two out of the four post-grouping companies remained very backward in that respect.

The means of coupling the BS Gangways and Pullman gangway stock existed long before 1954. I've got an LMS general appendix at home which mentions restricted stock will dig it out when I get home

[Right Away]

Thanks all. I hadn’t considered the increased frame length of the Bullied 64 footers or the Mk1s in comparison with the, in the main, shorter vehicles elsewhere

[Trestrol]

The LNER had 65'. Was it just problems on the Western region carriages not having gangway adaptors fitted. 

[Wickham Green too]

Yes, there were longer vehicles on the other Railways / Regions ( apart from the Western 70-footers, they were mainly sleeping or catering vehicles ) but their sphere of operation was restricted to some degree.

[The Stationmaster]

26 minutes ago, Trestrol said:

The LNER had 65'. Was it just problems on the Western region carriages not having gangway adaptors fitted. 

I'd be surorised if it was.  There were planty of regular workings of Pullman gangwayed LNER stock onto which  the GRr balanced by Standard gangwayed GWR stock going the other way.  and that was in addition yo trains booked to have a mixtureof gangway types  (although some LNER stock working onto the GWR had Standard gangways).

 

So overall I don't think Gangway Adaptors would be much of a problem although they could no doubt run short at some places  at times.   The SR of course could just as readily have had the view that Bulleid stock was too new and too good to let it loose onto someone else's railway in the faint hope that it might one day return.

[65179]

34 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I'd be surorised if it was.  There were planty of regular workings of Pullman gangwayed LNER stock onto which  the GRr balanced by Standard gangwayed GWR stock going the other way.  and that was in addition yo trains booked to have a mixtureof gangway types  (although some LNER stock working onto the GWR had Standard gangways).

 

So overall I don't think Gangway Adaptors would be much of a problem although they could no doubt run short at some places  at times.   The SR of course could just as readily have had the view that Bulleid stock was too new and too good to let it loose onto someone else's railway in the faint hope that it might one day return.

 

Tavern car sets worked over the ER in 1949-50 so there can't have been blanket restrictions.

 

Simon

[Aire Head]

From the "1937 LMS General Appendix to the Working Timetable and Sectional Appendix Midland Division" these are the pages relating to restrictions on passenger rolling stock on the LMS. I also checked the 1940 dates "Supplement to the General Appendix to the Working Timetable and Sectional Appendix Midland Division" and no changes relating to SR rolling stock are added.

 

No restrictions are noted as particular to any SR rolling stock.

[Aire Head]

Also from the "1937 LMS General Appendix to the Working Timetable and Sectional Appendix Midland Division" is this section covering the use Pullman Gangways.

 

 

Hope this all proves informative if unfortunately not answering the original question. It does suggest to me that the restriction on Bullied stock travelling off their home metals isn't down to be either their size or their usage of Pullman Gangways.

[bécasse]

Surely this LMSR instruction with its reference to "specially authorised" does suggest that it was Pullman gangways/vestibules and buckeye couplings that were the issue.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by bécasse

[Wickham Green too]

Depends what 'issue' we're talking about now : these instructions date from long before the OT's query of 1954 - a time when plenty of Maunsell coaches were about and some of those actually had British so-called-Standard gangways at the set ends in order that the western half of the country could understand them.

[Oldddudders]

2 hours ago, Aire Head said:

It does suggest to me that the restriction on Bullied stock travelling off their home metals isn't down to be either their size or their usage of Pullman Gangways.

But Bulleid coaches only appeared after the War, and initially some were on the same 59' frames as the Maunsells dating from 1926. As already suggested, it would have been some time before these new coaches were placed into Inter-Regional services, due to the Post-War demand for domestic mainline services, particularly to the WoE, simply taking priority. 

[KeithHC]

12 hours ago, Aire Head said:

From the "1937 LMS General Appendix to the Working Timetable and Sectional Appendix Midland Division" these are the pages relating to restrictions on passenger rolling stock on the LMS. I also checked the 1940 dates "Supplement to the General Appendix to the Working Timetable and Sectional Appendix Midland Division" and no changes relating to SR rolling stock are added.

 

No restrictions are noted as particular to any SR rolling stock.

B****r that’s it I can’t model my local branch no Bullieds……….. Back too BR(s) then he he he.

 

Keith