TPEX Class 68 & Mk5 Nova 3 fleet to be withdrawnDec 2023

[RichardT]

Article in Railway Gazette yesterday.

 

Also reported with glee in the York “Press” due to previous noise and fume complaints about these sets when idling, from lineside residents.

 

Back to overcrowded 3 car 185s?

 

Richard

 

EDIT Of course when I say “withdrawn” I just mean by TPEx.  Wonder if anyone else will pick them up off lease?

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by RichardT
Adding a PS

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder what route they operated which needed 4 changes of Driver?

[kevpeo]

Liverpool - Scarbados sometimes!

Edited August 31, 2023 by kevpeo

[hmrspaul]

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/23756391.transpennine-express-axes-class-68-trains-york-line/

[Trevellan]

I'm not at all surprised by this decision. In early June I had a few days based in York, primarily to photograph and sample the Nova 3s. As experienced by others, TPE service cancellations were rife, including my first attempt at travelling to Scarborough. The next service was a class 185 and I managed to have a pleasant chat with the driver, both at York and later at Scarborough. He told me that there were training issues with the Nova 3s and not all TPE drivers were familiar with them.

 

I tend to ignore the more ill-informed comments about buying the CAF stock and hope that the structural issues with the Mk 5s can be overcome. I only managed to travel on one set, but it was a pleasant experience and there must surely be several uses they can be put to with other TOCs.

[nightstar.train]

1 hour ago, Trevellan said:

there must surely be several uses they can be put to with other TOCs.

The problem is that it’s such a small fleet, only 13 sets. So that only really lets you cover 11 diagrams with 2 sets spare/in maintenance. And they’re a odd size at 5 coaches. Too large for a lot of routes and too small for big intercity routes. Operators are cutting fleets to save money at the behest of the DaFT. They’re hardly going to want to add a small non-standard feet that will require extra training for all staff (££) and different maintenance than everything else (more ££s). I really hope they get another use somewhere, but I can equally see them languishing in sidings for years. 

[APOLLO]

Run them on the Settle & Carlisle - Leeds to Glasgow or perhaps Sheffield to Glasgow.

 

Brit15

[phil-b259]

20 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Run them on the Settle & Carlisle - Leeds to Glasgow or perhaps Sheffield to Glasgow.

 

Brit15

You miss the point - the DfT want cuts plus transferring them to other routes still doesn’t help issues like train lengths or the need to maintain a small pool of drivers who are traction trained in the type.

 

[RichardT]

28 minutes ago, nightstar.train said:

. And they’re an odd size at 5 coaches.

Replacements for the four-coach GWR “Castle” HSTs?

 

RT

[RichardT]

2 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

You miss the point - the DfT want cuts

Occasionally I think that the time is long overdue that the DfT, and especially its Railway division, were told to GFT…

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by RichardT
Aberrant apostrophes

[phil-b259]

5 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Replacements for the four-coach GWR “Castle” HSTs?

 

RT

Possible - but as the DfT want those gone with no replacements so as to cut the train leasing bill it’s unlikely they will let that happen. Besides you still have the issue over traction training - With the HST conversion GWR benefited from the huge number of drivers who already had HST traction knowledge so no new training needed.

 

As such IF the DfT decide that extra trains are needed for GWR to replace the HSTs they will most likely be 15X vehicles bought in from elsewhere (e.g. the transport for Wales fleet) or new build IETs from hitachi - both of which would not require a small dedicated pool of drivers.

Edited August 31, 2023 by phil-b259

[Mallard60022]

Am I imagining this or was there at one time, the plan to add a new build Bi Mode Power Car to the Coach Sets and not use the Loco?

Phil

[Rich_F]

Wonder if this spells the end for the 37s still at DRS?

 

11 x 37s remaining at DRS. 14 x 68s out on lease to TPE.

[Davexoc]

46 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

You miss the point - the DfT want cuts plus transferring them to other routes still doesn’t help issues like train lengths or the need to maintain a small pool of drivers who are traction trained in the type.

 

 

Well Chiltern use a similar format, but not compatible.

Bicester Village express?

 

Or, longshot, EWR.....

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Davexoc said:

 

Well Chiltern use a similar format, but not compatible.

Bicester Village express?

 

Or, longshot, EWR.....

 

IIRC Chiltern earlier this year issued a document outlining a desire to procure an new fleet of Hybrid Battery / Diesel multiple units to replace its Mk3 fleet and some of its NSE Turbo fleet as there is significant pressure to minimise the use of diesel traction around Marylebone and Birmingham due to air pollution.

 

It may even be possible to provide short lengths of OLE at the likes of Marylebone and Moor Street to charge the batteries via a Photograph (thus future proofing the fleet) and provide power while the trains are parked there during turnarounds.

 

In any case the reuse of loco hauled coaches with a diesel loco is not a strategy they are going to peruse....

 

As for EWR - Again the intention is to pursue DMU / Hybrid DMU strategy and its interesting to note that Northern have recently asked for expressions of interest for around 100 new trains. This would potentially allow some of their current fleet to be cascaded to other operators or it could be in view of the small fleet size required for EWR then the trains could be ordered as part of the Northern order so as to achieve economies of scale. Again the use of loco hauled stock is unlikely to pass muster....

Edited August 31, 2023 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Am I imagining this or was there at one time, the plan to add a new build Bi Mode Power Car to the Coach Sets and not use the Loco?

Phil

 

Not specifically - it was an option which was touted as a possibility once the core TPE routes were electrified. However building such a power car which matches the current stock is problematical as it would represent a very small bespoke order and a straight forward bi-mode loco would be much cheaper to procure / use.

 

There is also the little matter that because the Mk5s are merely trailers then the actually power car would end up being a fairly heavy and beefy beast and probably with less space for passengers as a result (the IET with its traction distributed all along the train being the best layout in terms of space usage and weight distribution).

[Boris]

Availability with the 68 sets has been as low as 4 out of 13 in the past few months, leaving aside the noise issue, they are quite unreliable and frequently delayed by various ongoing electrical problems.  When they work they are great and we've had 5 car mk5 sets and 6 car 185 sets operating in/out Scarbados and its been fantastic, the trains have been comfortably full rather than sardine cans and anyone who wants a seat can get one.  But then we've had failures that have sat in platforms at Scarborough for over 3 weeks at a time, and also 3-4 mk5 sets stored for days on end at Scarborough and its causing headaches for people having to deal with charters (which need to use 1 because of length) and a lot of shunting movements because TPE haven't got anywhere else to store them.  I remember this year one colleague got really creative and we had one as station pet at Seamer for a bit too.

[jamie92208]

From memory there were plans have the 68's replaced by 88's once the route was electrified, potentially used on Newcastle to Liverpool.  There have been a lot of changes of planosince then

 

Jamie

[PaulRhB]

12 hours ago, Weeny Works said:

Wonder if this spells the end for the 37s still at DRS?

 

11 x 37s remaining at DRS. 14 x 68s out on lease to TPE.

Unlikely as the 37’s RA5 have wider route availability where the four axle 68’s RA7 are too heavy. That’s why the 37’s have lasted this long and still no replacement option in sight. 
 

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by PaulRhB

[Mike_Walker]

14 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Possible - but as the DfT want those gone with no replacements so as to cut the train leasing bill it’s unlikely they will let that happen. Besides you still have the issue over traction training - With the HST conversion GWR benefited from the huge number of drivers who already had HST traction knowledge so no new training needed.

 

As such IF the DfT decide that extra trains are needed for GWR to replace the HSTs they will most likely be 15X vehicles bought in from elsewhere (e.g. the transport for Wales fleet) or new build IETs from hitachi - both of which would not require a small dedicated pool of drivers.

Actually, the GWR drivers did have to do a one day conversion course before signing the Castle HSTs as they have a number of detail differences from their full-fat brethren, most notably power interlocks for the doors on the train.  However, it wasn't so long a course as learning a completely new type.

 

I would say it is almost impossible that the Nova 3s will migrate to the south west.  As others have pointed out, the DfT seem hell bent on reducing the size of the GWR fleet even if that means short forms and/or cancellations (for which, of course, GWR will be penalised).  It has been suggested that some of TfWs 158s might be transferred and 150s but the latter will be the last to be released by TfW probably not before 2025/6.  Nothing has been said officially to indicate this will be the case.

 

Anyway, as has been pointed out on another forum, the use of "new" trains on Class 2 services* west of the Taunton Down LOS is strictly verboten!

 

There would be an opportunity to retraction the Night Riviera if GWR got their hands on the 68s but that might require modifications to the locos or stock or both and, given the complexity of the sleeper's operations east of Exeter, driver training would be a long and expensive process which is why any thoughts of replacing the 57s (with 93s or 99's) are for now on hold.

 

* The Nova 3s are newer than our IETs.

 

[The Stationmaster]

Basically they will become a fleet which is available.  Whether they are used, and how they are used will probably be something to be decided by the 'experts' -  i.e. DafT who with their deep knowledge of the railway industry will probably seek to turn them into tri-mode trains incapable of matching any current passenger train's performance with the. possible exception of Pacers.

 

So whatever we think up,  and there must be numerous options and ideas, won't matter because our nationally unelected (and untrained) 'experts' will be the ultimate deciders of their fate  

But a couple of questions -

13 train sets to work only 11 diagrams sounds pretty dire in this day and age because they should surely be capable of working at least 12 diagrams daily and 13 on one or two days a week?

I know little about them but do they have to remain as 5 coach formations?  If they do then somebody got things well wrong in the specification process by coming up with such an inflexible starting point for vehicle  utilisation.

 

And don't forget that re-deploying these is  just like any other deployment or redeployment of a modern train and traction - because operating and artisan staff will need to be trained on them.  That is hardly a startling innovation and is really just a process which has to be managed.  But it would cost money and maybe even DafT at least understand the word 'money'?

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[Mike_Walker]

Mike, it's much worse than that - only four diagrams daily due to reliability issues and a lack of trained crews.  AIUI within the set they are fixed formation like your typical MU.

[jamie92208]

From tbe same article that mentioned the potential use of 88's they are fixed formation but with the potential to be expanded to 7 coachsts. 

 

Jamie

[Guest]

If the unions continue to complain about crashworthiness of the Scotrail HST sets, might they head north and out of the clutches of the DfT? What’s the fleet size there?

[PaulRhB]

25 minutes ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

 

If the unions continue to complain about crashworthiness of the Scotrail HST sets

 

It’s not just the Unions, read what the RAIB say about the crash performance at Carmont. 

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-02-slash-2022-derailment-of-a-passenger-train-at-carmont