Layout from scratch. Any input appreciated.

[Glob-Ally]

On 19/09/2023 at 19:39, Mysticpuzzle said:

@Glob-Ally, do you mind sharing the plan with the part numbers please? Many thanks.

 

I have come up with the attached baseboard plan by using the current dining table and getting 4 IKEA LINNMON table tops with additional legs. I plan to lay cork roll on top of the table to achieve a flat surface throughout and avoid drilling the tables. The nearer 70cm of the dining table is what I plan to utilize so that I would be able to access all the areas. There is enough space in the middle for both my son and I to sit/stand. The tables will be 70cm high so hopefully I should be able to crawl under. This removes the need for any lifting flat. And with the tables being standard size, I should be able to dismantle and re-fix them in the new house, when I move out of here. Only part I need to think about is access to the under stairs cupboard. It houses our jackets and travel bags. Will see how/what I do to achieve this.

Apologies @Mysticpuzzle I have been travelling for work. Would the parts list still be useful? If so I should be able to sort it for you when I get back home tomorrow. But appreciate things have moved on somewhat since then!

[n9]

I'm on my first "proper" layout build too, and have relatively recently been through the stages you are going through. It took me a year to plan my layout in Anyrail. I went through a house move. And, I (finally) started laying track about a month ago.

 

I model in N, but here, for whatever it's worth, is a mixed bunch of realisations I've had along the way. (I've very much kept thinking about a 6 year-old very impatiently waiting for progress too!)

 

1. Absolutely everything takes much, much longer to do than I initially thought. From planning, to track laying, to figuring out point motors, to learning to solder, to carving/shaping sleepers, to whatever. Everything. I set a deadline of 2 hours, and 3 days later I'm still doing it because I hadn't considered x, y, or z.

 

2. My plan has been final several times. I'm no longer afraid of things changing if they must.

 

3. I ended up switching to a (4cm thick) XPS (extruded polystyrene) base instead of ply, and haven't regretted it. It's extremely light, it won't warp, and you can carve it for things like rivers and valleys. At 4cm thick, its pretty sturdy, so not much bracing is really needed. Attaching things underneath (like wires or point motors) requires a bit more thought, but I've found it still extremely doable. Not sure if it's as child proof as woodier options though. Still, its move-out-of-the-way-ability may appeal.

 

4. Copydex. It's the god of all methods of fixing track, underlay, and anything you want firmly put in place but be easily removable later.

 

5. Screws. No nails, no glue. Knowing I can unscrew and replace any part of a superstructure (frame, braces, legs, etc.) whenever I need to I've found immensely comforting, not to mention useful.

 

6. I've been working on my layout (by that I mean stuff on the actual board itself) for quite a few months, but I've yet to feel the need to have it located or bolted down anywhere permanent. My XPS board is sitting on top of a wooden frame I made, which in turn is sitting on a pair of trestles, and only gravity is keeping everything in place. I can easily move any part of it to get it out of the way, or tilt the board on its side to work underneath it. But the thing is, I don't think there's any need to have anything bolted down until long after I get trains running on it. It could be years. Perhaps something to keep in mind as you consider where each of your boards absolutely "must" go before you get cracking, or worry about that door under the stairs, because by the time your get that far you may be in another house.

 

7. My board is 2m x1m. I've planned the layout on it to be both stand-alone, and extendable. If my plans come to fruition, it will sit centrally against a wall as the middle portion of a round-the-room U. The "stand-alone" part comes from it being a roundy-roundy. The "extendable" part comes from each "corner" of that oval having an exit point. It means that once the extensions are built, what I really end up with is a couple of end-to-ends that happen to be linked in the middle and can thus provide additional return options from each end. Maybe consider going a step at a time with yours too? So you actually get something up and running before the whole?

 

8. "Never let perfection get in the way of good enough." Or something like that. Picked it up from Charlie Bishop's Chadwick Youtube channel. If you haven't watched it, I highly recommend it.

 

Good luck!

 

[Mysticpuzzle]

On 28/09/2023 at 06:14, Glob-Ally said:

Would the parts list still be useful? 

 

Thanks for getting back, @Glob-Ally. I persisted and managed to understand AnyRail better which helped.

[Mysticpuzzle]

On 25/09/2023 at 12:46, cypherman said:

For your cupboard door problem why do you not try an accordion concertina door. 

 

 

@cypherman, that sounds like a brilliant and cost effective solution. As I am renting currently, and since I am turning one of the rooms into a train shed, I do not want to make any changes which will spook the landlord :) Some people understand, some just want a reason to complain. I will post a photo of the progress in a bit as per which the door has turned to be absolutely unobtrusive.

[Mysticpuzzle]

So, the progress has been slow but finally managed to get the tables sorted and installed. I am really pleased with the IKEA tables- they are cheap (£15 each sans the legs), are sufficiently sturdy (were heavier than I expected) and best of all, every leg has a disc at the end which can be used to increase and also fine tune the height of the table.

 

My son and I spent about couple of hours getting all the tables together (he just screwed in the legs) so good bonding time away from television. I think he is also starting to understand that this whole project is going to take time, which hopefully is teaching him patience since he hasn't complained so far :D

 

Next step is to lay the tracks and iron out any irregularities between the layout on paper vs. reality. Then to plan the electrics. I am also thinking very seriously about going DCC. Changing the points manually with 4 locos on the tracks might turn out to be cumbersome, I am guessing. Got a like-new Hornby Elite from Gumtree for less than £100 so might work. I already have a Hornby Select which I got free.

 

 

Will google and read stuff about the electrics to get the basics right.

 

@n9, you raise some great points. I see that Copydex is latex based and a lot of members advise against it. What's your experience with it? And how do you remove it once set? I am trying not to make any changes, albeit I come up with an idea pretty much every day. This is my first model and I want to take it easy, understand the basics and essentially enjoy the process. Maybe the next project, I will experiment but I will be a bit more confident too.  Good luck with your project!

[n9]

15 hours ago, Mysticpuzzle said:

@n9, you raise some great points. I see that Copydex is latex based and a lot of members advise against it. What's your experience with it? And how do you remove it once set? I am trying not to make any changes, albeit I come up with an idea pretty much every day. This is my first model and I want to take it easy, understand the basics and essentially enjoy the process. Maybe the next project, I will experiment but I will be a bit more confident too.  Good luck with your project!

Given your latest progress, it sounds like I may be too late, but here's another one I just remembered which may at least in part be relevant:

 

9. Do a practice run. Before starting work on my layout, I built a very simple test layout. Just an oval with unequal radii and an S bend for good measure, I put cork underlay underneath (following the track ouline, not a sheet), and fixed it on a small baseboard I built with a few batons and ply. That experience was invaluable for getting to grips with all of the basics, including relevant carpentry, soldering, wiring, as well as the track laying. I used flex track everywhere, so it also gave me much needed experience in getting flex track to behave when having rail joins on bends - something not to be taken lightly! I thought I'd done an excellent job, until I ran a few locos. While the diesels worked very smoothly, the (much less forgiving) steamers all struggled in one way or another. Turns out that in my efforts to keep the rails lined up around the bends (they were lined up pretty much perfectly), I'd applied too much vertical pressure and distorted the rails - invisible to the naked eye, but there nonetheless, and causing running problems. (Rather than physical rail distortion, I think it might actually be the track having compressed the cork as the glue set, so leaving portions of the cork more compressed than others.) Aside from having been very good practice, that layout now serves as my programming track for DCC, as well as a good test bed for locos and rolling stock.

 

 

Re. Copydex:

I've used it to glue down my track underlay (which is foam this time,) and to fix my track to the underlay, and also to glue MDF mounting points for my point motors underneath my XPS board (because you can't screw or nail anything directly into XPS.)

 

To remove Copydex, you can just gently prise the objects apart. Then any residue can be very easily rubbed off using just your fingers. Once dry, it's not sticky at all but does tend to stick to itself rather than anything else, so you find it coming away in little, ever-growing balls as you rub. I've had to lift track I've laid a couple of times, and all I had to do was slide a very thin piece of stiff plastic between the underlay and the track, and after a few strokes, up it came. And importantly, it came up like new, because it does no damage to the track, nor to the underlay for that matter.

 

So far, my experience with Copydex has been nothing short of brilliant. I can't see myself ever using anything else.

 

I'm very surprised to hear of anyone advising against it. Might that be when it is used in balasting? I think the jury is out on that one. While it seems to work, it can cause problems with drilling holes into the ballast later. The reason being that Copydex is "stringy" when dry, so if you start pulling at a strand and you're not very careful, you're very likely to get a lot more being pulled away than you intended. Basically it will readily start wrapping itself around a drill bit and tearing big chunks of ballast out. I've yet to ballast anything, but I suspect that those problems could all easily be avoided either by manual drilling (in this way you can feel if the Copydex starts to grab, back out, and go again until all the way through), or just by punching a hole through the balast with a bradawl.

 

 

 

Re. DCC: I'd personally definitely go with DCC over DC, but I'd stop short of advising anyone to choose either route. But I would say that if you're starting out right now and think that you might one day want DCC, you probably should wire your layout for DCC from the beginning.

[Chimer]

2 hours ago, n9 said:

Re. DCC:  I would say that if you're starting out right now and think that you might one day want DCC, you probably should wire your layout for DCC from the beginning.

 

I don't understand this comment.  If a layout is wired for DC, it's wired for DCC - all you have to do is turn on all the section switches (assuming you've used any) and change the supply to AC.  Whereas if you start with minimum DCC wiring and decide you don't like DCC, you'll almost certainly have to retrofit some extra wiring and change some metal fishplates to IRJs unless you can get away with doing all the isolating of locos and MUs you need by just using the turnouts.  That might be possible with this particular plan, but it certainly isn't generally true.  Imho, of course ...

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, Chimer said:

 

I don't understand this comment.  If a layout is wired for DC, it's wired for DCC - all you have to do is turn on all the section switches (assuming you've used any) and change the supply to AC.  Whereas if you start with minimum DCC wiring and decide you don't like DCC, you'll almost certainly have to retrofit some extra wiring and change some metal fishplates to IRJs unless you can get away with doing all the isolating of locos and MUs you need by just using the turnouts.  That might be possible with this particular plan, but it certainly isn't generally true.  Imho, of course ...

 

Almost, but you need to make sure that you don't rely on turnouts to isolate sections. If you do then when the turnout is set against the section any loco in there will be dead, not driveable, not making any sound and no lights on.

 

@Mysticpuzzle

 

The tables are in a peculiar arrangement, with the widest ones covering the entrance to the operating well. This is typically where you'd position the thinnest baseboards so that it's as easy as possible to duck under them.

 

I agree with n9 about playing before committing. Once you've got the tables arranged and level just plonk some track down and get some immediate gratification! Your boy will be over the moon!

 

P.S. Hornby Elite/Select are the lowest of the low in terms of DCC controllers, IMHO. Anything else would be better but they will at least give you a basic idea of what's possible.

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Harlequin

[Chimer]

Yep, my bad 🙃.  I only think about operations, can't be doing with bells and whistles ..... DCC needing wiring where DC doesn't, who'd have thought it? 😄

[n9]

20 hours ago, Chimer said:

 

I don't understand this comment.  If a layout is wired for DC, it's wired for DCC - all you have to do is turn on all the section switches (assuming you've used any) and change the supply to AC.  Whereas if you start with minimum DCC wiring and decide you don't like DCC, you'll almost certainly have to retrofit some extra wiring and change some metal fishplates to IRJs unless you can get away with doing all the isolating of locos and MUs you need by just using the turnouts.  That might be possible with this particular plan, but it certainly isn't generally true.  Imho, of course ...

I had some trouble understanding your comment too 🙂.

 

DCC isn't AC. That aside, I confess I've been out of the loop for a few decades, but when I last did DC, buses weren't a thing, and droppers on every piece of track weren't either. While there may be some debate, from what I've picked up, those things are generally recommended to have for DCC, not just for more reliable connectivity, but also because with sound locos a brief interruption can be a lot more noticeable. But basically what I meant is that its probably worth thinking about all of these things, and put any prep work in at the beginning while it's almost certainly easier. For example, I think I'd add all my droppers now, so that if I later want to connect sections that have been isolated for DC, it's a lot easier - just because the droppers are in place, doesn't mean I have to connect them to anything. Another reason to do droppers first, for me at least, is that I prefer to solder them under the rails off-board, rather than go in later and soldering to the outside of the rails, which I don't think is a good look. (In a similar way, I'm doing all the prep for block detection now, even though I've no idea when or even if I'll get all of that up and running.)

 

Anyway, that's my view given what I know, which I'm certain is a tiny fraction compared with the majority on this forum - I'm sure someone will soon leap in to correct me if I'm wrong. And that's great, because I'm learning an awful lot being here.

[Mysticpuzzle]

Hi all, I am slowly acquiring the hardware required for the model build. What do people use for point motors? I have 17 points in total (I think so) and buying the surface mounted or other variants is turning out to be an extremely expensive affair. Any cheaper options around which do not break the bank? Thanks.