The Skill Deficiency___Tram Kit

[relaxinghobby]

 

Day 1 22 JULY 2023

The Skill Deficiency

 

 

 

Despite the heavy rain all day the other Saturday I got myself along to the East Midland 009 model show at Portland College near Mansfield. I have missed it for 3 years running what with the covid panic and then personal happenings. Usually a nice bike ride from here but last Saturday it rained all day, forecast was just rain, solid, I was determined to go after missing it all this time so just togged up in layers of wool and plastic and grimly set off. So this year I got wet through on the way up and again on the way back. But I was there.

 

It's a small specialist show mostly catering to the 009 narrow gauge modeller and one 7mm I think. The order of the day is, small is beautiful.

 

I'm not a narrow gauge modeller but can appreciate the ideas and work folks do on these tiny trains especially the freelance aspect. After checking out the layouts I got some bargains at the club sales tables. Worsley Works was there he reports that people are less and less interested in his brass etch kits. I say that is because they are hard to do and need a high level of skill. The current on rush of ready to run models in all scales and gauges is making people into consumers and no longer modellers. Just look at the lovely little locos of RTR Bachmann and the Continental and other small producers. These models are exquisite little jewels and just purr along, How can the home modeller compete?

 

Compared to the other several 3D printed sales people Worsley Works display was not colourfully attractive just a sea of yellow stuff. The brass etches.

You have to be able to see the potential of doing all that work, creativity and imagination when looking at just a plain dull yellow body-shell with loads more work to get it any where near the RTR standard. It's a challenge to make any kit and there's a possibility of it all going wrong.

 

On the sorting through the Worsley Works Scratch Aid table looking through all the etchings spread out for us to inspect I found one for the Wantage Tramway Mathews tram parts. In 4mm to the foot scale.

 

The Wantage Tramway was a short standard gauge track running alongside the ordinary horse and cart lane between the mainline station that was the rest of the world and the small country town of Wantage. Passengers where carried in a short tram like coach and goods wagons could be towed into town too as the track was standard so Wantage was kinda on the national rail network. In a cheap and simple, and slow and cute way.

 

Motive power was a series of small steam pug locomotives and steam trams which where basically a steam train engine inside a box to stop pedestrians and animals falling into the whirling mechanisms when walking past on the country lanes. Flying con rods and oscillating pistons rods, people mangles and hissing steam horse frighteners. Seems quite innocent compared to modern day high speed car traffic I have to face on my bike.

 

As a modelling prospect the small box like etch kit was attractive as it is just that a box a bit like a wagon. I have done one a wagon in brass, easier than a loco with all it's cylinders and tanks and ledges and curved,swooping footplates. I have several locos started but never finished.

 

So a tram box should be an easier-ish build.

 

Looking at the etchings the construction tabs sold the kit to me as it would make it possible to slot the sides to the footplate dry before soldering, get it all lined up first.

 

 

And then seeing and handling some finished examples on display made up from the basic kits, seemed to imply the basic kits were easy.

 

 

 

[Camperdown]

Thanks, interesting read.

 

Not sure it's a skill deficiency, just that etched kits are an awful lot of work, and the end result is rarely up to modern RTR standard.  Besides which, small batch RTR is now producing all sorts of odd prototypes, that were once the sole preserve of specialist kits.

 

There are many, frankly poor etched kits out there in the marketplace.  Sure, you can usually build a fine model, but only with a lot of scratch building and throwing much of the kit away.  (See the many Nick Dunhill threads).

 

On the Wantage tram kit, that looks to be a difficult corner to fold, with the windows coming right up to the edge of fold.  Well done for getting a consistent curve down the whole side.

[relaxinghobby]

Hi Camperdown, thanks for your thoughts

 

What sold me this kit and made it seem possible to make the kit.

It was small and simple about 10 main parts.

The ready made examples where available to pick up, touch and inspect.

Touching helps and is part of a close inspection, getting a feel for the strange yellow metal which is very different from the plastic moulded model parts I am used to.

 

The sides where held to the floor and located with tags. Now this made the tram kit a possibility as lining up sides to foot plate is difficult, holding it all and applying hot solder with just one pair of arms, almost impossible. The slot and tags allows for the possibility of proper alignment.

 

Photos sides ends rolled corners soldering stages

 

Rounded corners of the main body box are half etches so easier to roll around a drill shank. That's groves etch halfway to through the metal from the back to enable better folding. Or forming as I believe metal workers say.

>>>

 

Photos  that follow.

First assembly. Body sides to the foot plate, wheel cover plates to underside of footplate.

 

 

Can't get this cell phone to focus where’s my proper camera.

 

 

The roof also is half etched from the underside and can be rolled with my special rolling mill. That is some magazines placed on the carpet and a suitable roller found. About a half inch or 12 mm in diameter or maybe larger.

A large screw driver shaft or marker pen, WHY. Rolling it pastry rolling pin style up and down gradually forms the roof curve. Total cost... sore knees.

 

It would be nice it the roof had some tags and slots to hold it to the sides accurately.

 

There's nothing like strong sunlight to get clear photos.

 

Pre solder or tin the places to make the joins.

 

 

The nearest corner shows a vertical crease where I applied the drill shaft wrongly and the metal  folded slightly.

It's gonna have to come apart to fix that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by relaxinghobby
editing

[Camperdown]

Nicely done.  I look forward to seeing the finished result.

 

Quite a few people have had good results using small magnets to locate a roof.  You might have to solder in a strip of tinplate to attach the magnet to, or even roll a new roof from tinplate.  (There are still some products supplied in containers rolled from 0.008in tinplate.  The modern containers are usually lacquered on the non-painted side, but like the paint, it scrapes off fairly readily.)

[relaxinghobby]

Thanks for your suggestions Camerdown.

 

The basic tram shape is just a box but two of the opposite corners are missing because there are door spaces there. When soldered to the footplate it makes for a flimsy structure and twists easily and so I want to solder the roof on to make it ridged.

I could make a false ceiling out of a rectangle of balsa wood, card or metal but that is extra work. For now I will try to use what come in the kit or scratch aid etch.

 

I've had several goes at soldering up the body. The third go produce a satisfactory result, about 8 out of 10. to keep the project build going I have to except a reasonable standard but not a super competent finish. Compared to the examples available to look at and handle on the Worsley Works display back at the 009 show I definitely am missing some skill. A deficit but practise builds skill, nes pas?

So I am trying to keep going. Don't get bogged down over small faults. Keep the modelling momentum going.

 

 

Somehow the left hand side has gone sideways and does not line up at A.

De-solder and start again.

 

 

 

Must have had my beer goggles on, what looked OK the evening before did not the next day.

The end has come adrift probably whilst soldering up the skirts and the corners of the skirts don't meet. there's a slight gap on the right hand just below the footplate and a whopper on the left

at A.

 

So de-solder and try again.

Edited September 18, 2023 by relaxinghobby
editing the editing

[chris p bacon]

8 minutes ago, relaxinghobby said:

A deficit but practise builds skill, nes pas?

So I am trying to keep going. Don't get bogged down over small faults. Keep the modelling momentum going.

I use the 3' rule, if you look at it under magnifiers it'll drive you potty trying to improve it, but at 3' it'll look good....but then I'm a bit of a bodger 😀

I'm sure there was a article in an early MRJ about some of the early WTC stock from etches, but think that might be the tram bodied coaches.

 

On 11/09/2023 at 07:37, relaxinghobby said:

Motive power was a series of small steam pug locomotives

 

Not being picky but it they weren't actually pugs. WTC No 5 was a George England well tank that started life in 1855/6 as 'Shannon' on the Sandy & Potton Railway. Having lived in Sandy for most of my life it was a bit of a favourite and with nothing available I drew up my own etches and built her in 4mm (OO) & 7mm and a friend did her in 4mm P4!

[relaxinghobby]

Yes Chris -p

The three foot rule, or for an old four eyes like me take off my glasses.

You work in mental close up mode whilst preparing and soldering parts and forget about the three foot rule in the close up moment and editing the photo's which is usually larger than life so even worse.

 

This can overcome a model during working on it and I then give up. Putting it away but when returning some months or years later can easily see solutions,

 

According to one's own progress on developing skiil,  brass soldering in this instance.

Getting the perfection to bodge ratio right so you can finish a model is another balance to achieve.

 

Your tiny Shannon model, I hope that's a giant pound coin there or the model is really tiny.

As a non-pug, no saddle tank where did you put the motor?

Do you have any spare etches?

[chris p bacon]

10 hours ago, relaxinghobby said:

As a non-pug, no saddle tank where did you put the motor?

Do you have any spare etches?

The motor is in the boiler

 

the severly hacked high level gearbox is in the firebox.

 

I can get more etches, but it's not an easy build as it was only ever going to be a series of parts to aid a scratchbuild. Send a PM with your email addressed I can send some build notes which can give an idea of what it was like.

 

 

 

 

 

[roythebus1]

You mght try using less solder, I use an Antec variable temperature iron. "normal" solder I ind works best at about 350-400 degrees, use a fine-tip  for this sort of work using a very small dot of solder to tack things into place, not forgetting to use flux! I'm still learning and have been building stuff for over 60 years now.

[relaxinghobby]

Hi Roythebus

I've got a Maplin own brand temperature controllable station with a 3mm diameter bit. So I'll swap that for a smaller one.

Remember the Maplin gadget shops. Happy days.

I've used a small bit for low melt white metal soldering as long as it only touches the solder never the castings.

[relaxinghobby]

Thoughts turning to the chassis what to use I'm thinking of one of the    chassis kits from High Level I like their chassis and gearboxes and can usually make them work first time. Here I've mocked up something out of balsa wood and an old biro pen body on 10 mill wagon wheels and a 23 mm wheel base.

 

 

I've now found five prototype photos of this Wantage Tramway engine and the insides can only be glimpsed as a dark silhouette through the doorways. So combined with some other photos of many types of tram locos and a generic drawing I am making an educated guess the boiler arrangement will look like this.....

 

[nick_bastable]

 

meet its smaller brother same scratch aid only in 2mm

[relaxinghobby]

Reply to Chrispbacon about small tank locos and where to put the motor?

Previously  I’ve built one of the Highlevel chassis for the old Airfix/Dapol Pug static kits and also it can be used to up-grade the Hornby Pug with a quality motor and gear train.

 

It has a specially designed gear box as part of the chassis to put the motor high up and in the firebox and boiler completely out of sight. With daylight under the boiler.

 

On that model there is also a saddle tank that gives you extra space inside the tank to play with to accommodate a motor. I got it working on the second attempt.

 

 

Below the footplate it is all Highlevel.

 

The footplate and above is Airfix kit, a shortened saddle and home made cab. This loco represents a Southampton Docks Vulcan later taken over by the LSWR and Southern Railway. The slight hint of red under the tank is the inside of the frames. Motor and gears hidden inside the firebox and boiler and tank. Fly wheel fits in too.

 

I chose the 100:1 gear ratio option and slow is not an adequate word to describe it imperceptibly moving off. Put the controller to half power and it gently moves away. The tender is an afterthought, North British Ralway style to extend the range of pugs across complex industrial sidings. Here it helps with electrical pickup.

 

I should post some photos of the mechanism.

The wheelbase is 26mm, would this fit in your Wantage loco?

 

[relaxinghobby]

11 minutes ago, nick_bastable said:

 

meet its smaller brother same scratch aid only in 2mm

How do you get the mechanism so tiny ?

 

Looking at the grainy old photos of these locos I interpreted the center windows as plated in so I've solder brass behind mine

Edited September 22, 2023 by relaxinghobby
addition

[relaxinghobby]

 

The pink glove of power.

I found these cheap cotton gardening gloves ideal for holding the metal  as it gets hotter and hotter during the soldering process.

[nick_bastable]

4 hours ago, relaxinghobby said:

How do you get the mechanism so tiny ?

 

 

Japanese chassis which converted to 2mm quite well given my limited turning facilities really needs a stay alive to help it along a project for the future

[relaxinghobby]

 

 Tram chassis, I've a High Level Quad-driver gear box which when assembled will be able to drive all four wheels via a gear train. It is made to power wagon wheels with a 2 mm axle diameter meaning wagon wheels which suits this build.

 

I'm on my second attempt at making a small chassis out of 1 mm X 12 mm brass strip. Old stock bought from Eileen's emporium I think. It's going to make a slab sided box with L shape stretchers at the ends and two identical slots to slide the axles in. The identical bit will be the hard bit to do.

 

I've glued two pieces of metal strip together, they are the length between buffer beams. Marked out with dividers and a scalpel blade to scratch lines, set square and ruler.

All cuts are straight and made with a junior hack saw. Finished with a file, keep it simple.

 

Then separate the almost identical two sides ? A balsa ply and card sandwich is glued together to make a packing piece between the brass sides. And may even keep the two sides parallel.

This makes a temporary chassis to drop onto the wheels and see if it whizzes up and down or just wobbles about.

 

 

 

[relaxinghobby]

I've forgotten which exact order I did things. What seemed a good idea on paper did not work  when made solid.

Trial and error. Here's some trials.

 

 

The middle chassis 23 mm wheelbase worked but put the wheels too neat the inside of the buffer beams so I've started a second with a 22 mm wheelbase. This time the balsa sandwich did not work well and the two sides would not be parallel, somehow I had squashed the soft wood or something. Distorting it slightly.

So I've hauled out these old spacers or chassis jigs. Not much room for them  in such a small chassis.  A simple heavy brass spacer with a bolt passing through where the wheel axle will go. A spring, washers and a nut screws on the end.

Tighten up it holds everything together nice and square whilst you solder......maybe.

At the front are two L sections of brass for cross  pieces.

 

 

[relaxinghobby]

 

From some long forgotten build I had filled off a quadrant off the right hand build spacer, allows room for the cross frame  L spacer. These came as a set of three. I don't know if anything similar is made now-a-days. I found them in an exhibition rummage box. We now have the larger side and rod jigs Like the Hobby Holidays one I have waiting for construction, but they are meant for larger chassis using 3mm and one eighth inch axles.

 

 

Another blurry phone picture of the Highlevel Quadrider gearbox and transition being prepared.

 

This picture is so blurry, I can't seem to control the phone camera at all. If it gets any worse I could submit it to the papers as a UFO sighting.

Edited September 23, 2023 by relaxinghobby

[relaxinghobby]

 

 

What's bigger the Ratio small signal box ground-frame or the Mathews tram ?

Maybe I should just stuff a motor bogie under the hut, and get what the American modellers call a Speeder.

 

[chris p bacon]

14 hours ago, relaxinghobby said:

The wheelbase is 26mm, would this fit in your Wantage loco?

 

WTC No5 used 3'0" diameter wheels, the only source was Alan Gibson. The wheelbase is 6' - 24mm

[PaulCheffus]

On 11/09/2023 at 09:46, Camperdown said:

Not sure it's a skill deficiency, just that etched kits are an awful lot of work, and the end result is rarely up to modern RTR standard.  Besides which, small batch RTR is now producing all sorts of odd prototypes, that were once the sole preserve of specialist kits.

Hi

 

I don't think these turned out too badly and the actual building of the basic wagon doesn't take much. I wanted to represent a slightly earlier version so I had further work to do on mine.

 

Worsley Works N Freightliner wagons

Cheers

 

Paul

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 17/09/2023 at 12:46, roythebus1 said:

You mght try using less solder, I use an Antec variable temperature iron. "normal" solder I ind works best at about 350-400 degrees, use a fine-tip  for this sort of work using a very small dot of solder to tack things into place, not forgetting to use flux! I'm still learning and have been building stuff for over 60 years now.

 

A bit of constructive criticism if I may. I agree, unless you're adding weight as you go along!

The 3mm bit you are using is far too big for a small kit like this one, try using smaller bits in relation to the size of the component you are soldering, I think that's why the end bit un-soldered itself, and try using different temperatures of solder as you build a "sub-structure" type of thing which is how I do my Judith Edge kits.

I don't claim to be an expert solderer, like roythebus1 I'm still learning, all my real soldering was done in my plumbing and gas fitting days!

 

Mike.

[relaxinghobby]

 

 

Another go at the tram chassis. I want to get the Quaddriver mechanism working and be able to slot it into the chassis without disturbing the motor attachment. Or any of it, as it is really difficult to get smooth running, it still requires more fettling.

 

The trouble has turned out to be the motor is too wide to slot up through an 00 width chassis. The motor at 12 mm wide is just to big. Would work fine in EM or P4, more space between the wheels.

 

So I am thinking of a screw together chassis to cradle the Quaddriver mech.

 

 

 

[relaxinghobby]

I’ve just remembered an earlier project where I'd tried to motorise a tiny engine based a prototype called Ant.

The saddle tank is a metal toy, it comes with a plastic footplate and smoke box, all nicely molded much nicer than I could model from scratch. This would hide a 20 mm wheel base Quaddriver, I hoped, so I’ve brewed up a brass chassis, folded from one piece of 5 thou brass sheet. Only got this far before it went into kit hibernation back before the covid panic.

If they can do tiny in 009 and n gauge surely it can be done in 00 ?

 Even by me ?

 

 

A saddle tank allows a lot more space for hiding motors and gears. The smoke box is from the toy. the boiler is a suitably sized pen cap with a plasticard wrap around firebox. Cardboard attempt on left made of parts drawn out with the computer app' Inkscape which is an open source or free drawing package like Corel Draw for professional graphic artists. But we can use it for secret drafting of engineering drawings.

The cardboard chassis and wheels work 100% as a sizing exercise. Making a mechanical one is where the trouble begins.

 

It allows you to trace and draw out plans and work out panels and parts sizes.

 

 

 

Roughly folded brass chassis for insertion of the Quaddriver.

 

 

 

See how small Ant is compared to a Hornby pug. The Hornby pug is it’s self shortened to scale length and riding on a Bachmann Percy chassis.

 

 

 

 

The drawback of 00 at 12m wide the motor case is too wide to slot between the chassis sides.

Edited October 3, 2023 by relaxinghobby
Typos and editing