Fire irons and equipment

[Hal Nail]

It is almost a cliche to hang a bucket and some tools on the rear hooks of a 57xx, and plenty of photos showing that, but I don't recall seeing it as often on, say, a 14xx 

 

Did all locos generally carry their own tools or did it depend if they were predominantly shed based eg a branch regular 14xx may well return to the same place each night so didn't need to cart tools around?

 

Or did they keep them on the cab rear shelf for example?. Similarly I've seen the odd long spade on a 45xx tank top but I wouldn't say it was the norm.

[Miss Prism]

 

(Stourbridge, 10 September 1949)

[Miss Prism]

 

(Newton, 1958)

[Paul H Vigor]

12 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

(Stourbridge, 10 September 1949)

I believe a bucket was considered standard allocated equipment for GWR locomotives? Regulations??

[phil_sutters]

Here's a bunch of tools stowed on tank tops or bunker hooks - don't forget the trailing hoses.

[Hal Nail]

Thanks for the replies but I still stand by my suggestion they weren't universally obvious in a lot of the 1000s of photos I have looked at. 

 

So did every loco have tools and they could be stashed anywhere not necessarily visible in every photo, or did not every loco have them?

 

In other words should every model have some somewhere?

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Hal Nail

[phil_sutters]

I guess that the tank locos may well had had to pick up coal from smaller manual coaling stages and perhaps more frequently. Maybe they needed longer handled shovels for that purpose and had shorter ones, inside, for use while firing in the more cramped confines of their cabs. Tender engines obviously had plenty of space on their tenders. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by phil_sutters

[Compound2632]

Surely every engine had a set of tools (normally stored in the toolbox), fire irons, etc. and it was the fireman's responsibility to check this and draw any missing tools from the shed stores? At least, that's my recollection from reading Terry Essery's Firing Days at Saltley; I can't imagine that the practice was much different at a Western Region shed, though perhaps it was less usual to find tools missing - certain things seem always to have been in short supply at Saltley.

[Flying Pig]

9 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

I guess that the tank locos may well had had to pick up coal from smaller manual coaling stages and perhaps more frequently. Maybe they needed longer handled shovels for that purpose and had shorter ones, inside, for use while firing in the more cramped confines of their cabs. Tender engines obviously had plenty of space on their tenders. 

 

Long-handled for if the road adjacent to the coal stage was occupied and they had to park on the next one across? ;)  I think they were actualĺy for reaching into the firebox to attend to the fire (like the other long fire irons), or to remove it quickly if need be.

[The Johnster]

The long-handled tools, shovel and pricker, were to get to the front of the firebox, a long way away from the firehole on a GW KIng or 47xx and beyond the reach of the shorter tools even on smaller engines without setting fire to the fireman; don't forget he had to work entirely from outside the firebox, and couldn't lean into it.  The first thing a fireman learned was to never, ever let go of the shovel; if he did there was not much chance of retrieving it before the handled was reduced to ash, and you were in big trouble, loco a failure, until another one could be procured, perhaps from a shed twenty miles away...

 

It was one of the unforgiveable sins, like dropping a fusible plug.  I knew a driver at Canton in the 70s who'd dropped the plug on a Britannia at Llantrisant as a fireman in the 50s, and he was still failing to live it down...

[TheEngineShed]

14 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

Here's a bunch of tools stowed on tank tops or bunker hooks - don't forget the trailing hoses.

 

 

 

That Pannier on the Channel Islands Boat Express looks like it has a bell.  This is a new one for me.  Was the bell a requirement for street running?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

3 hours ago, TheEngineShed said:

 

That Pannier on the Channel Islands Boat Express looks like it has a bell.  This is a new one for me.  Was the bell a requirement for street running?

Yes. Here's a class 33 with bell in 1976:

 

[Steamport Southport]

9 hours ago, TheEngineShed said:

 

That Pannier on the Channel Islands Boat Express looks like it has a bell.  This is a new one for me.  Was the bell a requirement for street running?

 

The Heljan 1366 model has one.

 

I think it's the only model I have with a bell apart from a Rapido J70.

 

 

Jason

[Hal Nail]

On 16/09/2023 at 12:08, Paul H Vigor said:

I believe a bucket was considered standard allocated equipment for GWR locomotives? Regulations??

I assumed this was a joke originally but occurs to me ypu might have been serious?

 

I had another look through rail online yesterday. Less than 1/4 of the 14xx have some tools on the rear or tank tops and 45xx even less. Admittedly most 14xx were connected to the autotrailer at the back so you can't see on lot of those.

 

From a modelling perspective I accept its more than a cheesy cliche but I'm still curious where the ones you can't see have been stashed!

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, Hal Nail said:

I assumed this was a joke originally but occurs to me ypu might have been serious?

 

I had another look through rail online yesterday. Less than 1/4 of the 14xx have some tools on the rear or tank tops and 45xx even less. Admittedly most 14xx were connected to the autotrailer at the back so you can't see on lot of those.

 

From a modelling perspective I accept its more than a cheesy cliche but I'm still curious where the ones you can't see have been stashed!

 

Probably in the cab. Or slung in the bunker.

 

 

Jason

[Hal Nail]

1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

Or slung in the bunker.

Yes I had wondered that. Not often photod!

[Steamport Southport]

Here's another view of a bucket.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p320959101/eea6b403e

 

Personally I reckon it's a case of finding photos of the prototype of the engine you are modelling and seeing whether it routinely carried a bucket and tools. It probably often had the same crew if it was working regularly on one line.

 

Not quite GWR, but I've seen plenty of views of Bulleid Q1s with bicycles stowed on the tender!

 

Jason

[The Stationmaster]

Part 1 - define 'tools'

Part 2.  What normally was kept on the engine/tender?  

As I understood it on GWR/WR engines the fire irons remained with the engine.  So ona tender engine there would be a long and a short bar (aka 'pricker'), a long handled shovel used in fire cleaning and chucking out the remains of the fire that couldn't be pushed down into the ashpan, and  a long handled rake for fire cleaning.

 The only ones of these items used on the road by a Fireman would be one or other of the prickers but they they not only required physical care in handling (at least one death on the GWR was recorded as being due to a long pricker being mishandled by teh Fireman causing it to hit an over bridge and in turn hit and fatally injured him.  The other problem was what to do with the bar in the firebox and this required a fair bit of knowledge - usually the bar was put in to 'lift' a 'black' fire and get some air through it to brighten it up but with some types of coal this could result in clinkering which made the problem even worse.

Part 3 What was issued when the Enginemen went to the stores after booking on?

Fireman's shovel and coal hammer. 12 detonators and two red flags.  A set of engine head lamps, oil can with lamp oil, oil can with engine oil, oil feeder for oiling round,  spare gauge glass,  gauge glass spanner, bucket, wad of cotton waste.   The detail of this no doubt varied over the years and between railways and I'm not sure what the situation was in respect of handlamps in pre-Bardic lamp days (Bardics were personal issue).   It's also more than likely that headlamps might well have been part of the engine's equipment at some time.

All of the items drawn from storesat lot was supposed to be returned to stores when booking off.  

 

I think that spare worsted trimmings for coupling/connecting rod and valve gear bearings, plus  spare corks for same, were issued individually to Drivers 'as needed' and they retained them when booking off.

 

Many Firemen acquired  a ' favourite shovel' and they tended to be secreted somewhere around the shed before they booked off.  There was a story at Old Oak Common that when the depot was being cleared for the dieselisation rebuild as the (emergency) coal stack was removed numerous shovels in various stages of decay were found in it .  Apparently it had been the favoured place for many years for hiding your shovel when avoiding returning it to stores.

[Hal Nail]

33 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Part 1 - define 'tools'

The point I was making was GWR tank locos are fitted with hooks on the back for the various long firebox tools but in a lot of photos - particularly of the two classes I mentioned - these are unused. I was curious why but I think it's been covered now.

 

I'm going to put some on about 1/4 of my locos, which is my rough estimate from a rainy day browsing today!

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

The point I was making was GWR tank locos are fitted with hooks on the back for the various long firebox tools but in a lot of photos - particularly of the two classes I mentioned - these are unused. I was curious why but I think it's been covered now

 

Bunker hooks were not fitted to all GW tank engines, and the prairies & 8-coupled tanks were 'exempt', presumably because there was sufficient room inside the cab and on top of the tanks to stow fire-irons and other stuff.  It may have been a result of the aformentioned classes having opening cab front windows that tools on top of the tanks could be easily accessed through.  Panniers and 0-4-2T engines had fixed spectacle plates, so this stowage space was denied to them. 

 

As well a buckets and fire-irons, shunting poles and firemens' bicycles were common loads for the bunker hooks.  A bucket was a vital piece of equipment on a GW steam loco, a particularly important use being to hang in on the signal arm if you were 'put inside' at a loop or refuge siding.  You could then wedge yourself into whatever contortion you needed to 'rest your eyes', being alerted to the signal being pulled off by the bucket dropping to the ground with a clang, a luxury not afforded to enginemen on railways that used upper-quadrant semaphores...

 

At Grange Court (SWML about 5 miles west of Over Jc, Gloucester) in my time, the 70s, where freights in the small wee hours often spent long periods in the up loop pending a gap in the incessant parcels shunting that occupied all roads at Gloucester Central station in those days, or rather, nights, it was customary for Gloucester Panel to ring the phone on the signal post as an alarm call to crews 'resting their eyes' if the signal was cleared and no response was noted after a few minutes, and there were probably other instances of this sort of thing in similar locations.

[Hal Nail]

35 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Bunker hooks were not fitted to all GW tank engines, and the prairies & 8-coupled tanks were 'exempt', presumably because there was sufficient room inside the cab and on top of the tanks to stow fire-irons and other stuff. 

The bucket usage amused me.

 

A bit worried how convinced I was the 45xx have hooks when clearly they don't but I fear these sorts of mental moments are only going to happen more often as I get older!

 

Am I right in assuming tank top stowage would generally be on the fireman's side or was the driver's fair game as well?

Edited September 17, 2023 by Hal Nail

[Paul H Vigor]

14 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A bucket was a vital piece of equipment on a GW steam loco,

'Pick up thy bucket and walk'!

[Paul H Vigor]

17 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Part 3 What was issued when the Enginemen went to the stores after booking on?

Fireman's shovel and coal hammer. 12 detonators and two red flags.  A set of engine head lamps, oil can with lamp oil, oil can with engine oil, oil feeder for oiling round,  spare gauge glass,  gauge glass spanner, bucket, wad of cotton waste.

All had to have a home on the loco.

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

All had to have a home on the loco.

 

That's why they had toolboxes. Usually in the cab or tender, but the smaller engines often had them on the running boards.

 

And beware of them on the 14XXs, etc. as they did tend to move about, even on the same engine!

 

Sometimes forward of the splasher, sometimes central and sometimes slightly to the rear.

 

Ben Brooksbank wiki

 

Jason

Edited September 18, 2023 by Steamport Southport

[Hal Nail]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

And beware of them on the 14XXs, etc. as they did tend to move about, even on the same engine

The much photo'd 1450 had one forward and one mid splasher