Why was HS1 built with so much less fuss than HS2?

[Artless Bodger]

2 hours ago, AndrueC said:

Hmmm.

 

On the one hand it sounds like a good idea for when a major event is on but on the other hand I'm innately suspicious of anything my MP suggests.

 

Sadly the chances of getting the Conservatives out around here are miniscule. It's never happened since records began and often makes me wonder why I bother to vote.

A 'Silverstone Halt' for race track visitors, on HS2. I've now got a mental picture of a short, 1 carriage, wooden platform with a corrugated iron shelter and an oil lamp on a post. A muddy path leading away through the bosky hinterland. (Get Colonel Stephens to run HS2, that'll save a bit of money).

[AndrueC]

1 hour ago, Artless Bodger said:

A 'Silverstone Halt' for race track visitors, on HS2. I've now got a mental picture of a short, 1 carriage, wooden platform with a corrugated iron shelter and an oil lamp on a post. A muddy path leading away through the bosky hinterland. (Get Colonel Stephens to run HS2, that'll save a bit of money).

Or it'll develop into another aspect of the sport. Teams compete for who can get the most passengers off in the shortest time. It'd be interesting to see what strategy RB came up with.

 

Imagine the scope for penalities:

* Passenger stumbles and falls onto platform - 5 seconds.

* Passenger dropped onto track - 10 seconds.

* Removing a passenger before train has stopped - 15 seconds.

 

😃

Edited October 6, 2023 by AndrueC

[jjb1970]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Sorry to stay with poilitics (of a sort) but in any of these modern day equivalents of rotten boroughs where either  the red or blue team is an immovable permanent fixture you can at least exercise the most basic of your rights/. So you can  be [very] rude on your ballot paper and express your opinion of the candidates or vote for the most ridiculous candidate just to show 'them' that you are not one of the voting sheep.  

 

Doesn't achieve much but I once spoilt my ballot paper thereby helping the constituency to a record of having the highest number of spoilt ballot papers thus far recorded.

 

I truly advocate there should be a box for 'none of the above' to allow people to positively register their refusal to endorse any of the  candidates. Every election politicians and the media commentariat do lots of hand wringing and preachy talking down about people who can't be bothered to vote, people failing in their solemn duty to participate in the democratic process etc. They seldom reflect on why people don't vote. I am sure there are many who just can't be bothered but there are many who find all the mainstream choices repugnant or who are sick of career politicians ignoring their interests. If a majority voted 'none of the above' it'd present an interesting dilemma but at least the usual talking heads couldn't dismiss it as voter apathy.

[Hobby]

If the majority voted none of the above then the answer is simple, a new ballot but with different candidates! Surely a vote for Screaming Lord Sutch or one of his cronies is the same thing, though...

[class26]

On 06/10/2023 at 09:27, david.hill64 said:

If it is a new Jag it will be a diesel hybrid.  Still have waiting times of 6-9 months on most models.

Sorry this is totally off topic but yes it is a hybrid and I must say in answer to Ron Ron above having driven all the german alternatives before purchase the jag is a way better ride yet still handles well leaving the likes of Mercedes way behind , more comfortable, it is beyond me why everyone goes german. Follow the herd I guess ? And before anyone sites reliability this is my fifth Jag (new) in just under 20 years and haven`t had a single issue which friends with BMW`s etc cannot say. They certainy are not the last word in reliability

 

Sorry to go off topic.

Edited November 2, 2023 by class26

[Ron Ron Ron]

I hope you’ve got deep pockets for your next Jag.

Tata have decided to turn them into a luxury EV brand, by all accounts.

Prices starting circa £100k according to motoring press reports.

 

 

.

[The Stationmaster]

On 06/10/2023 at 10:02, Pete the Elaner said:

 

There will never be a need for an EV to manage 800 miles without recharging.

How long does it take to drive 800 miles? With clear roads, about 12 hours. Could you really drive 12 hours non-stop? No chance. It would probably be a 2 day journey with at least 1 extra stop each day.

The key to making EVs work is to make charging available wherever you stop & make it fast enough that even a quick toilet break gives you 90 minutes driving time. A stop for lunch will give it enough time to charge for double that. These are the targets it needs to achieve. 250 miles is plenty for this.

The technology is there; Tesla have it right now. The infrastructure is not though; everyone needs access to it, but they don't yet.

It won't be there by 2035 either. There is just too much to do & not enough being done.

 

How did HS1 v HS2 drift to EVs?

Maybe not 800 miles but I regularly used to drive 250+ miles non-stop (apart from the obvious things such as road junctions and traffic lights etc)  going on holiday.   That journey was made partly at night - to avoid peak traffic flows - and often in poor weather.  And at times there were diversions which increased the mileage - but still no intermediate stops except those imposed by the roads and their layout

 

So I would need a battery-electric car with at least 300 miles reliable range at full performance level, in all weathers, plus a guaranteed recharging facility immediately available at my destination.

 

Currently we are in the era of far from developed electric vehicles and clearly the at the moment  present Govt isn't interested in having usable  electrified railway trunk routes either

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Hobby said:

If the majority voted none of the above then the answer is simple, a new ballot but with different candidates! Surely a vote for Screaming Lord Sutch or one of his cronies is the same thing, though...

Actually he was quite a nice bloke, far more sensible than many MPs I've met over the years.  He regularly used to attend car boot sales buying all sorts of bits & pieces off my wife's stall (and invariably closely followed by his own wife wondering what on earth he had found to buy this time and moaning about some of the things he did spend his money on)

[pete_mcfarlane]

19 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

VW group have been working on what they declared, would be a sub- €20k small EV.

It was due to arrive in 2024/25, but those dates have slipped to 2025+ and it's now being touted as a sub- €25k car.

 

It's a clean electric car, but only when the regulators are testing it.....

 

36 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Actually he was quite a nice bloke, far more sensible than many MPs I've met over the years.  He regularly used to attend car boot sales buying all sorts of bits & pieces off my wife's stall (and invariably closely followed by his own wife wondering what on earth he had found to buy this time and moaning about some of the things he did spend his money on)

His autobiography 'Life as Sutch' is quite a good read. It goes into a lot of his experiences of touring by-elections, and shows how clever and incisive he was. And a lot of his joke policies are now law, and he managed to put the SDP out of their misery. 

 

The less said about some of his music the better though.

[Pete the Elaner]

21 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

An automatic ICE car is just as simple to drive as it's equivalent EV, other than the power source there's little difference, I can't see where you are coming from there, Ron.

 

Regards range. We are due to change cars next year and I was seriously looking at an EV, in particular a Skoda Enyaq iV80 with a range* of 339 miles. However Skoda have, at least, been very honest about EV range and have a little calculator, which makes interesting reading/calculating. As my driving mileage is currently 50/50 between urban and motorway it would seem as that headline figure is a figment of imagination. Granted the same sort of "official" calculations and published figures for IC are also not to be trusted I've always been able to get pretty close to the combined figure in all my cars. Looking at that i suspect with an EV I wouldn't get anywhere close to the 339 miles which seems to be calculated using the best possible combination.

 

https://rangecalculator.skoda-auto.com/210/en-gb?actioncode=GP03P03%2FGYONYON%2FGYPAYPA&drivingEnvironment=City&drivingStyle=Eco&mbv=5ACJP4&occupancy=DriverOnly&salesgroup=64655&season=Summer&temperature=21

 

Hence in my earlier post i said an affordable EV with 450 genuine range, that Skoda has a genuine range of nearer 200 miles, not the 339 it advertises. Yes, I know that range in an IC can vary a lot but my experiences using Fuelly would indicate it's nowhere near as much of a fluctuation as an EV. For me a plug in hybrid would be ideal, but the only one that would fit our needs has too high an advance payment (a Vauxhall Astra Estate). Much as I'd like to join the EV crowd at present it doesn't look feasible. 

 

There is a very good case for an EV being easier to drive: An electric motor gives its best performance from stationary & only needs 1 gear. This means that it pulls from a standstill instantly. There is no waiting for the torque converter to gradually engage; It gives you maximum performance immediately. There is also no waiting for kickdown & the chance it will briefly kick down before changing back up again before you get any useful response. I would argue that this makes it easier to drive than an auto, regardless of how quickly it can change gear.

 

You place too much importance on range. EVs require a different mindset to ICE vehicles. Do you ever start a journey with half a tank? One of my cars has that right now & the other has a quarter, so I need to consider filling one of them up. With an EV, a home charger is a essential then you always start every journey with a full charge. You only need to get to your first stop or resting place & 200 miles is enough for 3 hours when for safety's sake, you should be giving yourself a rest. Being able to charge when you stop & the speed it can re-charge is definitely an issue. If these were good (which currently is not always the case) then a 400 mile range would be pointless.

Being unable to install a home charger is a definite deal-breaker.

It may well be unfeasible for you to have an EV at this time, but range is not the problem.

 

Wasn't this thread about HS1 & HS2?

[class26]

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I hope you’ve got deep pockets for your next Jag.

Tata have decided to turn them into a luxury EV brand, by all accounts.

Prices starting circa £100k according to motoring press reports.

 

 

Fully aware of that which is why i bought the present one whilst they are at reasonable prices ! 

Apologies again for going off topic

Edited October 7, 2023 by class26

[black and decker boy]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Maybe not 800 miles but I regularly used to drive 250+ miles non-stop (apart from the obvious things such as road junctions and traffic lights etc)  going on holiday.   That journey was made partly at night - to avoid peak traffic flows - and often in poor weather.  And at times there were diversions which increased the mileage - but still no intermediate stops except those imposed by the roads and their layout

 

So I would need a battery-electric car with at least 300 miles reliable range at full performance level, in all weathers, plus a guaranteed recharging facility immediately available at my destination.

 

Currently we are in the era of far from developed electric vehicles and clearly the at the moment  present Govt isn't interested in having usable  electrified railway trunk routes either

Tesla model 3 (except the entry level trim) will do 300 miles in all weathers, 

 

there are few of a new trim; long range rear wheel drive - WTLP 385miles so real world 330 in winter, 350 in summer.

 

Ive tried other EV (circumstance rather than choice) and for me currently, the only answer is Tesla. Never had a range, charging or reliability problem in 4 years of driving Model 3s

 

 

[Hobby]

18 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

Tesla model 3 (except the entry level trim) will do 300 miles in all weathers, 

 

Maybe, but they are not really affordable... 

[Ron Ron Ron]

11 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Maybe, but they are not really affordable... 

 

Affordable or not affordable for who though?

There are tens of thousands of ICE cars on our roads, that had similar and higher purchase prices when new.

Mostly bought through company backed schemes or leased when new, but after 2, 3 or 4 years of initial ownership/use, they fall into the hands of private buyers.

 

Then looking at the number of these cars on the road and the fact that the Model Y is Europe's best selling car (that's all cars, not just EV's), doesn't suggest they're "unaffordable".

 

There's nothing particularly remarkable about the price of a new Tesla, or any similarly priced EV.

 

 

.

 

 

.

[Hobby]

Just now, Ron Ron Ron said:

There are tens of thousands of ICE cars on our roads, that had similar and higher purchase prices when new..

 

And there are 33 million cars on the road, the vast majority of which are worth nowhere near the price of a Telsa. I said when i started the range debate that I was looking at affordable EV with good range, the vast majority of us can't afford £42k+ for a new (or secondhand) car.

[lmsforever]

At least HS1  works as it was intended to, the local services are very useful for residents  shame it does not go across London and onto HS2 then maybe the white elephant would have enjoyed success.

[APOLLO]

Jags - Every true Englishman must, at least once, own a Jaguar in his lifetime, So the old adage goes.

 

Brit15

Edited October 7, 2023 by APOLLO

[black and decker boy]

4 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

And there are 33 million cars on the road, the vast majority of which are worth nowhere near the price of a Telsa. I said when i started the range debate that I was looking at affordable EV with good range, the vast majority of us can't afford £42k+ for a new (or secondhand) car.

Add another 10k for that 300 mile range.

 

I disagree that the majority can’t afford that car as many do drive them, perhaps not off the forecourt as new but certainly once second hand.

 

the bulk of EV sales at the minute are replacing the BMW 3 series / Passat / Merc C  /Audi A4 in fleets. The lower BIK tax being a big driver. 
 

from this year onwards they will start to filter into the 2nd hand market in increasing numbers , my first Tesla was a19 plate on a 4 year lease.

[jjb1970]

MG make some good value EVs, people may laugh or turn their noses up because they're Chinese but when I  looked at them and had a test drive I was impressed.  I had read reviews whinging about cabin quality etc but I found interior trim to be very pleasant and competitive with other car brands. In terms of driving, again it was very pleasant, many road testers assume everyone is obsessed with sportiness and wannabe race cars and ignore the fact that many just want a practical car that does what they need it to without costing the earth.

Edited October 8, 2023 by jjb1970

[Hobby]

7 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

Add another 10k for that 300 mile range.

 

I disagree that the majority can’t afford that car as many do drive them, perhaps not off the forecourt as new but certainly once second hand.

 

Quite!

 

Regarding the second sentence, the majority of new cars sold in the UK top ten are in the £20 to £40k range, secondhand obviously lower than that so I have to disagree with you, perhaps best that I agree to differ with you and Ron so that the thread can get back on track (or off track bearing in mind half the line's been dumped!)?

 

@jjb1970 I nearly mentioned MG (and other Chinese manufacturers as the ones who are pushing forward affordable EVs in that last post. I am on a Motability FB page which looks at EVs and much of my views on EVs and Hybrids are formed listening to people like me who have them and use them on a daily basis. The MGs seem to be, on the whole, fairly reliable and people seem to like them, they were one of the first to do affordable reasonable distance batteries as well. Fingers crossed they keep developing!

[Ron Ron Ron]

6 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

MG make some good value EVs, people may laugh or turn their noses up because they're Chinese…..

Yet they don’t turn their noses up at BMW’s, Polestar or Volvo EV’s that are also made in China !

 

 

.

[APOLLO]

I understand MG cars are made in China, India and Thailand. Don't know where ones for sale in the UK are made though.

 

Brit15

[Hobby]

12 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

I understand MG cars are made in China, India and Thailand. Don't know where ones for sale in the UK are made though.

 

Brit15

 

4s in China and 5s in China and Thailand I believe.

[jjb1970]

The MG5 is becoming quite popular as a taxi here (most taxis are Toyota Prius or Hyundai Ioniq). Taxis are another cause of disdain to some car enthusiasts, but if a car holds up to the very high mileage and abuse which goes with taxi use it's probably a good car.

[AndrueC]

21 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

There is a very good case for an EV being easier to drive: An electric motor gives its best performance from stationary & only needs 1 gear. This means that it pulls from a standstill instantly. There is no waiting for the torque converter to gradually engage; It gives you maximum performance immediately. There is also no waiting for kickdown & the chance it will briefly kick down before changing back up again before you get any useful response. I would argue that this makes it easier to drive than an auto, regardless of how quickly it can change gear.

When did you last drive an automatic and what kind was it? I've been driving CVT equipped automatics for ten years now. The only part of your description that I recognise is the kick-down delay. But the delay is fractions of a second and I'd argue that if it's that critical to your manoeuvre then you shouldn't be executing the manoeuvre in the first place. Add to that that overtaking is rarely worth the bother and risk most of the time anyway on a single lane carriageway and I'd call it a none-issue if not a positive safety benefit.

 

In addition to that:

• Two of the three automatics I've owned had paddles behind the steering wheel so you could use them to change down prior to your manoeuvre if you really felt it worthwhile.
• My current automatic (Toyota Corolla hybrid) has electric power available to supplement the ICE and it has zero delay. It doesn't provide much power as such but enough to offset any kick down delay.

 

I'd say that an EV is easier to drive than a vehicle with a manual gearbox and about the same as a car with a modern CVT drive train.

 

For HS2 - I never thought it was a good idea but the cancellation has just made it farcical. We've now built (or will eventually have) something that looks like the epitome of a white elephant.

Edited October 8, 2023 by AndrueC